Chinese Military Build-up

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AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
China is developing a blue water navy, which in and of itself is a sign that they want to expand their military projection. If anyone thinks that China doesn't want to expand, they might want to go read some information about the dispute surrounding the Spratley Islands.

The US NAVY currently has no counter measures against these two weapons.

So, one blows up and destroys a Russian submarine, killing all hands, and we need a defense against it? Sounds like it's our weapon actually. Regardless of the presence or absence of countermeasures against those particular weapons, there is much more that goes into sea warfare than weaponry. Sensors are far more important, and the presence of well trained operators even more so. Does China have a good supply of either?

Also, China realized from Iraq, Kosovo and now Afghanistan that Air Defense is important. They have huge stocks of S-300 and even the new S-400 russian surface to air missiles.

Because, like Iraq, Kosovo, and Afghanistan, they don't have an air force that is worth a hill of beans against what the United States has in its inventory, both in terms of pilots and equipment. SAMs are the only way to perhaps counter a US air attack, and even then you need people working them that have a clue about what they're doing. The Serbs were well trained, and their record wasn't so hot.

The word is that the S-400 has a range of 400 km from detect to destroy.

LOL!!! Get your head out of the comic books.

Air power may seems to be kicking ass in Iraq, Kosovo and Afghanistan. But we need to realize in all 3 of those scenarios, the air power were not challenged.

You need to do some research. Iraq had a decent air force with MiG-25, MiG-29 and Mirage F1 aircraft, and many of their pilots had combat experience with Iran. They had their asses handed to them by the Coalition air forces, with particular attention from US F-15Cs. Their pilot proficiency was better than China's is now, and they lost quite handily. The Serbs also challenged the US in the air, launching Su-27s and MiG-29s -- they also were swept from the sky with ease. For every Chinese aircraft in their inventory, the United States Air Force has an AMRAAM waiting for it.

Chinese pilots cannot even intercept a prop plane without killing themselves!! ROFL!!
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
China is developing a blue water navy, which in and of itself is a sign that they want to expand their military projection. If anyone thinks that China doesn't want to expand, they might want to go read some information about the dispute surrounding the Spratley Islands.



LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL over some fishing terroritory and you call that expansionism? This is no different than the dispute with the Porteguese in the 80s that tried to fish in American/Canadian waters. LOLOLOLOL


Chinese pilots cannot even intercept a prop plane without killing themselves!! ROFL!!

Well, they've been doing it for decades without incident... but hey, if your intelligence is limited to taking a single accident and generalizing it towards an entire military, then there's no arguing with you.

Who is disputing that the Chinese has a greater military than the US? I don't think anybody in their right mind is. The question is, does China pose a threat to the US because it's updating/increasing it's military? I highly doubt it. Does the US new Raptors constitute the US as a threat to the world? If the Bush administration decides to increase funding for hte mililtary, does that mean the US is a threat to the world? If you look at the past 50 year history of China versus the US, you'll see that the US has been involved in more conflicts than China. So if anybody who should be paranoid, it should be the Chinese. It's the US that has gone to war over ideologies... they entered the Korean war because they didn't think Koreans should be communists... same with Vietnam and Afghanistan. The Gulf War was a war because of oil (don't kid yourself, there has been dozens of nations invading others since WW2, and the US and the world didn't concern themselves over it), Bosnia wasn't their concern either, yet here they go interfering in others affairs as well. Hell, even the US meddled in the affairs of China by supporting Chian Kai-shek.

Most of the world sees the US as intrusive and violent... they see the US as bullying other nations, and intruding on affairs that they have no right to. And most of the world doesn't want the US to be a world police... but that seems to be the position they took on themselves. So is it really a wonder if the Chinese want to build up their own military power so that they don't get bullied? Americans are getting paranoid that the Chinese may want to start a war with the US, which is simply idiotic... especially so since the Chinese have never shown any aggression towards another nation (aside from intimidation towards Taiwan). BUT the US, which HAS shown aggression to nearly every part of the world, from Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, middle-east, Bosnia, etc, so they have a history of bullying and using force on people whose ideology is different than theirs. Has China?
 

Dually

Golden Member
Dec 20, 2000
1,628
0
0
Isn't that interesting. We are spying on them and they don't like it, who would have guessed. Did you know the UN provides a 12 miles buffer for all nations. Did you know the US claims a buffer of 200 miles. Did you know that China also claims a buffer of 200 miles. So what right do we have to fly within 200 miles of the Chinese coast conducting spy missions.
 

AH786

Junior Member
Dec 7, 2001
9
0
0
IMO, America only goes to war for either money/political means or if it is attacked. I dont think China is stupid enough to attack the US.
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91
China is developing a blue water navy, which in and of itself is a sign that they want to expand their military projection. If anyone thinks that China doesn't want to expand, they might want to go read some information about the dispute surrounding the Spratley Islands.



LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL over some fishing terroritory and you call that expansionism? This is no different than the dispute with the Porteguese in the 80s that tried to fish in American/Canadian waters. LOLOLOLOL


Fishing territory, eh?

You fail to mention the fact that the Spratleys have large, subocean oil reserves.
 

Hammer

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
13,217
1
81
I think the Taiwan will almost certainly be what starts it. The only reason China doesn't do anything about Taiwan is because we have a carrier battle group in the area at all times, and they know we would defend them. As long as things remain the way, we have our military deterrence. But if the US were to get involved in more than one regional conflict, like say Iraq and North Korea at once, and China sees our resources stretched thin, they might take the oppurtunity.
 

FrontlineWarrior

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2000
4,905
1
0
guys, i just have one question
how the heck do you guys know about all these things? like oil reserves in the spratley islands? is there some specific source of info that everyone is getting this from?
 

UltraQuiet

Banned
Sep 22, 2001
5,755
0
0


<< Well, they've been doing it for decades without incident... but hey, if your intelligence is limited to taking a single accident and generalizing it towards an entire military, then there's no arguing with you. >>



Your intelligence is limited to the single incident. The Chinese have always been known as a second rate air power. Trust me there have been others.



<< Who is disputing that the Chinese has a greater military than the US? I don't think anybody in their right mind is. The question is, does China pose a threat to the US because it's updating/increasing it's military? I highly doubt it. Does the US new Raptors constitute the US as a threat to the world? If the Bush administration decides to increase funding for hte mililtary, does that mean the US is a threat to the world? If you look at the past 50 year history of China versus the US, you'll see that the US has been involved in more conflicts than China. So if anybody who should be paranoid, it should be the Chinese. It's the US that has gone to war over ideologies... they entered the Korean war because they didn't think Koreans should be communists... same with Vietnam and Afghanistan. The Gulf War was a war because of oil (don't kid yourself, there has been dozens of nations invading others since WW2, and the US and the world didn't concern themselves over it), Bosnia wasn't their concern either, yet here they go interfering in others affairs as well. Hell, even the US meddled in the affairs of China by supporting Chian Kai-shek. >>



Name these dozens of countries that have been invaded. I'll settle for 24 , that's two dozen. And why should China be paranoid? When was the last time the US just up and invaded someone unprovoked?



<< Most of the world sees the US as intrusive and violent... they see the US as bullying other nations, and intruding on affairs that they have no right to. And most of the world doesn't want the US to be a world police... but that seems to be the position they took on themselves. So is it really a wonder if the Chinese want to build up their own military power so that they don't get bullied? Americans are getting paranoid that the Chinese may want to start a war with the US, which is simply idiotic... especially so since the Chinese have never shown any aggression towards another nation (aside from intimidation towards Taiwan). BUT the US, which HAS shown aggression to nearly every part of the world, from Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, middle-east, Bosnia, etc, so they have a history of bullying and using force on people whose ideology is different than theirs. Has China? >>



What part of the world exactly? Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan? As a matter of fact I hear the UN screaming for the US to do something every time there is a conflict somewhere. Where has the US shown all this aggression? Where have we gone that the UN has not asked us or that we weren't responding to some other act of aggression. Interdiction in Communists countries while the old Soviets were around was legit. The had clearly stated the wanted a communist world and were dedicated to the fall of this country. I will agree we maybe a bit paranoid about China however they do have ties to terrorists states such as N. Korea and I don't think we should sit on our hands if they invade Taiwan.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
China will be a superpower someday, there is no stopping that. But right now its better to help them do that and be on their good side than try to stop them and be on their bad side when they become a superpower.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
right wing media likes to rant about communism, and sadly the soviets are no more.

bingo. it's just a bunch of left over "red scare" fanatics.

all you people talking about tibet, taiwan, spratleys, whatever. these are all territories that china at one point owned, and they were taken away. that is why china wants them. i'm not saying that they have a right to them, or that they had them first, just saying that china isn't so much expansionist as it is maintainst. it just wants to keep what it had.
 

Mday

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
18,647
1
81


<< Since when was tibet a separate nation? Don't tell me you've only studied history for the past 70 years >>



china invated tibet a few hundred years ago. tibet was re invaded when the communists took over.
 

auyong

Banned
Nov 29, 2000
431
0
0
<china invated tibet a few hundred years ago. tibet was re invaded when the communists took over. >

so, just because China invaded Tibet, that makes it an expansionist nation. What about US? US has invaded tons of other weaker countries/states and that doesn't make it an expansionist nation?

People are expansionist by nature. That is why men are usually territorial. The more territory they have, the better. That is the cause of war, more territory means more resources. In the world today, unless China is very thirsty for critical resources, it will not do anything stupid like invading some neighboring nation. Furthermore, what the Chinese want is money...don't you people get it yet? It's all about money...

 

UltraQuiet

Banned
Sep 22, 2001
5,755
0
0


<< What about US? US has invaded tons of other weaker countries/states and that doesn't make it an expansionist nation? >>



Please name the countries that we have invaded for the reason of expansion. Or any others for that matter.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Please name the countries that we have invaded for the reason of expansion. Or any others for that matter.

america doesn't need countries for resources, we have enough of that, america invades countries primarily for the purpose of having a convenient launching ground to attack other countries.

but i don't think china has been any more expansionist in the past 250 years either. right now they're just trying to get back the land they had before WW2
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
over some fishing terroritory

Fishing for oil perhaps, but we won't little facts like strategic petroleum reserves ruin your ignorance.

they entered the Korean war because they didn't think Koreans should be communists... same with Vietnam and Afghanistan. The Gulf War was a war because of oil...

Oh, I'm sorry -- I thought you were remotely intelligence, but the above statements dispute that. I won't bother responding.

is there some specific source of info that everyone is getting this from?

Well, for me, it's my job.

right now they're just trying to get back the land they had before WW2

So Britain should reclaim India?
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
So Britain should reclaim India?

britain gave up on india, it wasn't taken away from them.

i'm not saying that anybody should do anything, i'm just saying that it shouldn't be viewed as expansionist. if somebody were to take guam from us, and we fought to get it back, are we being expansionist?
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
britain gave up on india, it wasn't taken away from them.

All right, if that's the criteria, France should retake Algeria? They "gave up" Algeria, but only in the face of continued civil war. They had colonized and administered Algeria for over 100 years prior to that. It was as much a part of their country as Alaska is part of the United States today (or Hawaii, even better example).

I believe Hitler made the claim that the Sudetenland was "historically" part of Germany when he invaded prior to WWII. Legitimate?
 

RadMan

Senior member
Dec 24, 1999
279
0
76
Guys, can we keep the "your an idiot" and "you're ignorant" style comments to a minimum.

A good question was raised earlier: Where do you guys get this info? Any suggested reading lists?

Particularly I wish to learn more about US aggressions around the world since its inception. Military, polically and from an economic stand point.
 
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