Chip rankings: Intel had highest share in over 10 years (EETimes)

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drizek

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2005
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I also just realized that with the appropriate HDMI cable, you can plug it directly into a wall outlet since the power adapter is the same as the one that's used on the macbook/ipad chargers.
 

dac7nco

Senior member
Jun 7, 2009
756
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I also just realized that with the appropriate HDMI cable, you can plug it directly into a wall outlet since the power adapter is the same as the one that's used on the macbook/ipad chargers.

Eh?
 

KompuKare

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,076
1,126
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Even still, surprising that they only have <16% of the TAM, surprising in a good way.

Because if they were able to be as profitable as they have been while still sinking as much money into R&D as they have been so as to develop 22nm (and the existing pipeline for future nodes) with a mere 16% of the total revenue bucket in their coffers then that speaks to a long future of more Moore given how much more revenue is out there that can be brought to bear on node shrinks in an ever more coordinated manner as market-share consolidation continues.

While I'd agree that Intel do good R&D and have excellent manufacturing (which is mainly due to them being able to afford both due to their huge profitability), and that this means they can continue to pour vast sums into 22nm and beyond.

What I'd question though is that Moore's law can continue for much longer just because money gets poured into process R&D. Money is good but some problems

There is another thing as well: Intel have been able to maintain their dominance mainly through money. Better designs (68K, PowerPC etc.) gave up on the consumer market since the lacked the volume and hence the profitability. Intel have really managed to take a poor design (8086, 386 or even 486) and go way beyond what anyone at the time might have expected because they were able to bring huge budgets to their design (not that huge budgets always win: Itanium, UltraSPARC etc.).

In the x86 space in days of their P4 being beaten by AMD, Intel were also able to do two things: the dodgy tactics for which they were found guilty and to use their process and fab advantage.

Back then I had this thought: if in the future process nodes were to stagnate and everyone was on a level playing field, the best design should triumph which at the time would have been a scary for Intel. Core/Core2/SB etc. now means that Intel has the best current design but 'mistakes' like Atom still get made so if in a few years time everyone is at say 6nm and there's physically no more advance possible it might only take a new good design by some upstart to really shake up the market. Even a good enough design might upset Intel since they do like to maintain 60%+ margins.
 

anikhtos

Senior member
May 1, 2011
289
1
0
While I'd agree that Intel do good R&D and have excellent manufacturing (which is mainly due to them being able to afford both due to their huge profitability), and that this means they can continue to pour vast sums into 22nm and beyond.

What I'd question though is that Moore's law can continue for much longer just because money gets poured into process R&D. Money is good but some problems

There is another thing as well: Intel have been able to maintain their dominance mainly through money. Better designs (68K, PowerPC etc.) gave up on the consumer market since the lacked the volume and hence the profitability. Intel have really managed to take a poor design (8086, 386 or even 486) and go way beyond what anyone at the time might have expected because they were able to bring huge budgets to their design (not that huge budgets always win: Itanium, UltraSPARC etc.).

In the x86 space in days of their P4 being beaten by AMD, Intel were also able to do two things: the dodgy tactics for which they were found guilty and to use their process and fab advantage.

Back then I had this thought: if in the future process nodes were to stagnate and everyone was on a level playing field, the best design should triumph which at the time would have been a scary for Intel. Core/Core2/SB etc. now means that Intel has the best current design but 'mistakes' like Atom still get made so if in a few years time everyone is at say 6nm and there's physically no more advance possible it might only take a new good design by some upstart to really shake up the market. Even a good enough design might upset Intel since they do like to maintain 60%+ margins.
yes intel triumpth with the worse design
and still pushes better designs out cause of the volume it has over other fragment markets
so in future with fix fab the game will become open to all again
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
9,198
3,185
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www.teamjuchems.com
Virtualization has its place and can be quite useful. But I do not think it will replace Big Iron anytime soon.

Soon is debatable, your right, depending on your definition. I'd say 10-20 years, which is soon in a relative sense but a long time in technology terms.

To be clear, we should say x86 virtualization before some crazy person comes in here spouting how virtualization is decades old and they've been doing it forever in Big Iron, etc.

"Having it's place" means every x86 host, IMHO. Either you are going the SeaMicro and virtualizing system components for high density/low power or just "plain old" hypervisor based virtualization. There justifications for running any system on bare metal are slim and disappearing all of the time.

On topic, I am in a business software segment that traditionally uses big iron, and so much of the development effort is on expanding markets - and that is not big iron.

Internal and external clouds are also the focus of business continuity efforts by industry at large, etc.

Once internal cloud offerings are faster, cheaper, more reliable and more scalable (not a real word?)than Big Iron (we can debate this too, but I definitely feel this is coming) then it is only a matter of time, really.

Of course, IBM could likely outright buy EMC (and by extension, VMware) or do all sorts of things to disrupt what looks to be a natural progression of technology.

The density that Intel is achieving (with partners like IBM, no less) is pretty freaking awesome. Clearly Intel has set their eyes on that segment, and I believe in them like I do in Microsoft - if they want it bad enough, they'll get it.
 
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Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
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91
While I'd agree that Intel do good R&D and have excellent manufacturing (which is mainly due to them being able to afford both due to their huge profitability), and that this means they can continue to pour vast sums into 22nm and beyond.

What I'd question though is that Moore's law can continue for much longer just because money gets poured into process R&D. Money is good but some problems

Hehe, yeah I made a decent living because it costs money to hire people who can solve the problems of scaling.

Moore's law has always been a matter of economics. The very reason the transistor itself was adopted in the marketplace was for cost reasons, and we started wiring them up on a monolithic substrates (creating IC's) for cost reasons, and we shrank them for cost reasons, and always have.



Moore's law isn't about shrinking, or doubling, its about capturing the rate at which one can reasonably manage the process of reducing manufacturing costs on a per-component basis.

But business is not motivated by cost-management alone, it is movitated by profits. And profits are the difference between costs and opportunities (selling price).

So, while Moore's law captures the cost-management opportunities, it also enables the other side of the gross margin equation - the opportunity to develop products that command higher ASP's (or prevent ASP erosion).



I can understand that it is easy to get oneself hung-up in thinking that shrinking is a physics problem, not an economic one, because that is what we are told to think...and it makes sense in a physical manner that of course you can't physically shrink things below that of some fundamental limit that involves the dimensionality of atoms and so forth.

But the folks that do work on node shrinks (me, as an example) see opportunities to shrink stuff in new ways on a daily basis and the sole reason those opportunities are not pursued comes down to money.

Pure and simple economics, shrinking is not the challenge. The challenge is shrinking while at the same time managing to build an integration process that accomplishes the shrink which is profitable, and more profitable than simply staying with your prior node.

It comes down to cost-management and gross margin opportunity. If the shrink doesn't create superior numbers than the node it is supposed to supplant then you have a problem, in the boardroom, not in the lab and not in the physics textbook.

For the folks who worry about "how can one shrink below a single-atom", all I can say is "reciprocal space". (another decent link)

In physics, the reciprocal lattice of a lattice (usually a Bravais lattice) is the lattice in which the Fourier transform of the spatial function of the original lattice (or direct lattice) is represented. This space is also known as momentum space or less commonly k-space, due to the relationship between the Pontryagin duals momentum and position. The reciprocal lattice of a reciprocal lattice is the original or direct lattice.

For the same reasons we can make 193nm wavelength photons print structures that are a mere 35nm wide (i.e. the dimensionality is not the sole determining factor in the resultant product), just because the physical atomic dimensionality is 1-3nm that doesn't mean the electrical manifold within which the circuit itself is operating need be.

The problem with discussing reciprocal space with the laymen, and that includes the journalists who write the stuff about the ending of Moore's law that we get exposed to, are not really steeped in the mathematics necessary to conceptualize how it works, let alone how it will someday be leveraged to work for the continuation of increasing the density of electrical circuits. (in theory the physical limit to reciprocal space is Plank's length, which is about 10^15 times smaller than the width of proton)

It is easy for laypeople to relate to the concept of an atom, and that since today's circuits exist within the engineering realm of discrete atoms it then becomes an easy concept to relate to laypeople the notion that shrinking the circuit is limited to the ability to shrink down to an atomistic length scale.

The problem of course is that this is just not the reality of "the end of the road for the physics of circuits", it is just the end of the road for leveraging discrete atoms as proxies for those circuits. We cross the same conceptual boundary line when we start talking about MLC nand flash technology and so forth.

When we are at the end of the road in terms of the economic viability in shrinking circuits physically by way of atoms, there are a multitude of avenues for materials scientists and physicists to continue making it possible to make more and more dense circuits at lower and lower costs per circuit.

(how can I be so confident in this? My credentials are: B.S. in Materials Science and Engineering, minors in Mathematics and Chemistry, Ph.D. in Chemical Physics, Adjunct Professor at UNT, R&D Process Node Development engineer at Texas Instruments, worked on nodes and their shrinks from 0.5um to 32nm, and NSF R&D grants for exploratory research on material shrinks to <10nm.)
 

KompuKare

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,076
1,126
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@IDC

What a monster post!

I'm way out of my depth here but... let me try this: my critic of the inevitable progress of smaller and smaller nodes is more based on the common sense that nothing is infinite.

But it's good that you brought economics into this. Now it doesn't take a genius to figure out that we only currently have one planet and although Malthus was perhaps not taken too seriously over the last two centuries, now that world population is 7 billion + and certain resources are getting scarcer resource depletion is being take far more seriously.

So what does have to do here? Well, one argument is of course that if say oil runs out we can just substitute certain of its uses by refining something else for its hydro carbons. Which is certainly true but that brings us back to one simple point: will it be economical to do so?

So yes, it may be possible for process nodes to go down to 1 nm or even 30 picometre but to do so may simple not be economical (and may perhaps only work with wafers of 1" which take six months to go through all their stages etc.).

Recently both AMD and Nvidia have cautioned against expecting continuous node changes as we've been used to (JHH in usual style blaming everyone else...) while Intel haven't said anything. Obviously Intel have deep pockets so it may be that if others are forced to stop at 22nm or even 16nm, Intel may be able to continue down to 6nm, 4nm or beyond. I still believe that Intel would not be happy if node progression stopped and every fab was able to produce the same node because that would either eat in their margin or some upstart might produce a better design (although in the x86 space I doubt another NexGen will be possible).
 

Ares1214

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
268
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Couple points:

1) Apple IS on that list. Who do you think manufactures their chips for them? Here's a hint: they are #2 on that list.

2) Why would Microsoft or Google be on that list? They don't ship any semiconductor products.

3) IBM would be on the list since they manufacture semiconductors (even if they only sell them to themselves). They must not be on their because they are simply too small, at least in semiconductor sales. Keep in mind, this might also involve how IBM books revenue for these divisions (IE, they may be selling them to themselves at very low internal cost for bookeeping purposes).

You are missing his point obviously, Apple technically isn't on the list because the overwhelming majority of their revenue is obviously from mobile devices, just as for Google, and Microsoft, who's revenue comes from obvious sources. That's kinda his point, that the majority of IBM's revenue does not come from chip production, and so asking why its not on the list would be comparable to why asking other why profitable companies that don't really make chips aren't on the list. That kinda answers your point 2, which I think is the part of his comparison that you didn't get. Your third point is kinda irrelevant though, just because they manufacture semiconductors doesn't mean they would have to be on the list, and I definitely wouldn't call IBM "small". It's just that commercial chips aren't their main priority, and so they won't be ranked highly on commercial chip production lists.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
^ Absolutely agree :thumbsup:

The limitations of the economics as it stands today exist because so many aspects of the existing R&D across the industry are duplicated, intentionally, across the various companies.

GloFo is spending money inventing nearly the same wheel as TSMC is spending money inventing, and so on.

So consolidation is inevitable, as it has been happening. I was more elated with the realization that "15% of the TAM is enough to support the economics of developing everything down to 22nm, and then some...so whenever the day comes where things consolidate to the point where Intel, or some other company, has 50% or 60% of the industry's total TAM at its disposal for coordinating R&D focus and expenditures, how far will that take us?"

I took it as a positive sign for the industry, in terms of jobs and the future. The economics of future node shrinks are not as dire and bleak as some have painted it IMO.

But, point taken about the realities biting us sooner instead of later as well. We do not have our flying cars today for reasons of economics, not for reasons of physics, unless you look to the expense caused by the physics as we currently know them to be. (come on cold fusion, work damn you!)

So node shrinks, in the traditional physical dimension sense, are coming to end very soon indeed. ~5nm node timeframe To go beyond that is going to take serious R&D bucks to make going beyond that profitable when it comes to manufacturing (the 1" wfrs w/6-month cycle time for instance, total deal killer in production cost metrics).
 

GammaLaser

Member
May 31, 2011
173
0
0
Moore's Law doesn't have to be fueled solely by node shrinks. There's plenty of other possible tricks to play to continue performance improvements for some time, I think. 3D stacking/advanced packaging, new materials (III-V/Graphene), optical interconnects, logic representations beyond binary, etc. to keep us going for awhile yet.
 
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