& I guess Israel's wasn't either because they didn't expect that kind of reaction from Hezbollah.
I guess they both learned something.. sadly.. Lebanon's civilians paid a heavy price....
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: Aimster
Hezbollah's leader said he did not know Israel would react the way it did otherwise he would never have ordered the Israeli soldiers to be abducted.
Well, then, I guess his time machine wasn't working
Originally posted by: tvarad
raildogg,
That's the biggest copout excuse given to what is happening in the middle east. There are more poverty ridden places on earth than the wretched middle east (e.g. Africa) and yet none of them exhibit the kind of destructive mindset that is manifest there and the Muslim world at large.
And there have been bigger injustices (if you can call it that) perpetrated on peoples than the creation of a country about the size of a large metropolitan American city. For example, the British took a meat-cleaver to the Indian sub-continent and hacked out two countries (now three) with half a million people dying by official estimates. And yet, no Indian is running around hijacking planes and flying them into buildings, indulging in suicide-bombings and the like to protest it. If anything, I would have thought that Indians would be more justified in bombing the London tube; yet Indians are one of the most successful and peaceful expatriates in Britain. And, btw, it is Pakistanis for whom the British created a country that are biting the hand that give them an identity.
No, the reasons go much deeper: it'a Naziesque mentality that conjures up historical injustices and perceived humiliations to encourage reactive violence which is used as a stock to mix a witches brew of hatred against non-Muslims.
Originally posted by: Aimster
I guess they both learned something.. sadly.. Lebanon's civilians paid a heavy price....
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: Aimster
I guess they both learned something.. sadly.. Lebanon's civilians paid a heavy price....
You let a terror organization operate from your back yard, then your gonna suffer from the response.
Originally posted by: Aimster
Yes because Lebanon had the military ability to take out Hezbollah .. yep....
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: raildogg
In Lebanon, hezbollah is healing wounds while Israel is creating new wounds and opening up old ones.
Healing wounds by creating a vast network of bunkers and tunnels (almost reaching into Israel), while hoarding weapons (14,000+ rockets), and ocassionally mounting an assault on border outposts, and firing rockets at civilian towns?
Quite some healing....
Ask yourself why Afghanistan was the training ground for many Jihadists. There has to be a reason ...
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: Aimster
Yes because Lebanon had the military ability to take out Hezbollah .. yep....
And that is relevant because ............. ? (fill in the blank)
Originally posted by: tvarad
raildogg,
We can quibble about facts but the one unassailable fact is this: unless Arabs/Muslims admit and accept that their problems are from within than due to external forces is the day that they take the first step towards solving them.
Originally posted by: tvarad
Aimster writes:
"Israel acted too harsh and used excessive force."
Well, it's time that you figured out that war is not a beauty contest.
Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel acted too harsh and used excessive force. If you are denying this then you are obviously biased towards your own country which is fine .. but when the hell do you ever disagree with Israel?
Originally posted by: tvarad
raildogg,
We can quibble about facts but the one unassailable fact is this: unless Arabs/Muslims admit and accept that their problems are from within than due to external forces is the day that they take the first step towards solving them.
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: Aimster
Israel acted too harsh and used excessive force. If you are denying this then you are obviously biased towards your own country which is fine .. but when the hell do you ever disagree with Israel?
Hezbollah had more than 14,000 rockets; it fired more than 4,000; it had built many bunkers; it had built many tunnels and some of them were to go under the border.
After the month-long war many of the rocket stockpiles have been destroyed, the bunkers and tunnels TNTed.
Excessive reponse? Methinks not.
Given more time, Hezbollah would've only been in a better position.
Originally posted by: Aimster
There are rules to war.
of course you do not know that.
You do not go around bombing apartment buildings .....
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: Aimster
There are rules to war.
of course you do not know that.
You do not go around bombing apartment buildings .....
Nor do you attack border outposts, wander around in civilian clothing, and fire rockets from next to apartment building into civilian centers.
Under the circumstances, the buildings are fair-play.
Originally posted by: Aimster
Hezbollah is not weakened. They still have thousands of rockets able to hit Israel. Even on the last days they were launching 200-500 missiles a day. The same as the first days of the war.
There is no evidence they are weakened. If anything they are now stronger.
What are the people in the South going to do now that they are out of jobs and need to feed their families? Only option is to turn to Hezbollah.
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: Aimster
Hezbollah is not weakened. They still have thousands of rockets able to hit Israel. Even on the last days they were launching 200-500 missiles a day. The same as the first days of the war.
There is no evidence they are weakened. If anything they are now stronger.
It can be said that Israel assault could've been handled better, but asserting that they are stronger doesn't prove anything.
What is important is the fact that this is the first time that the Lebanese army went into the South, because previously Hezbollah didn't allow them. This definitely shows some weakening.
What are the people in the South going to do now that they are out of jobs and need to feed their families? Only option is to turn to Hezbollah.
Very well, let Iran pay for the reconstruction -- they supplied the weapons, so now they can provide the cleanup.
Originally posted by: Aimster
The Lebanese army is not disarming Hezbollah or controlling Hezbollah. If anything the army in the South is an advantage for Lebanon if israel decides to attack again.
Iran has been paying hundreds of millions to Hezbollah for years. It makes no difference to Iran. All it is doing is making Hezbollah stronger by having them rebuild Lebanon.
Originally posted by: getbush
So, I haven't read any of this thread. I just fired up my computer 5 minutes ago and Google News is my homepage. I thought I'd share with everyone else the irony that caused my head to explode upon firing up my browser, and this thread was already here and it fits. http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/9471/ironysq1.gif
Originally posted by: Smilin
Originally posted by: Aimster
After about an hour nobody has shown me any religious Muslim leader speaking out against non-Muslims
After about an hour nobody has shown me any religious Muslim leader speaking out against non-Muslims
After about an hour nobody has shown me any religious Muslim leader speaking out against non-Muslims
After about an hour nobody has shown me any religious Muslim leader speaking out against non-Muslims
All I get instead are .. blah blah blah .. inventions.. blah blah blah.. Israel-U.S relations .. blah blah ... oil... blah blah .. suicide bombings...blah blah blah....Arab world.. blah blah..
The thread topic is the Pope saying something against Muslims. Therefore, I am trying to link a major religious Muslim leader in saying the same thing. Yet, people have decided to twist things around because they are filled with hate and misinformation-knowledge
Sorry I'm late, just got here.
I believe this qualifies as "speaking out against" and the source is from a "religious Mulsim leader"...
"Christian Zionists are a group who adopted Satan as god who drives their crazy nature. They have praised depravity and cursed virtue, they have turned the moral scale upside down and have reached [a point] in which forgery, deception and lying have turned into descriptions of world policy, which is led by the Zionism on both its branches ? the Jewish and the Christian." - Cleric Hamed Al-Tamimi, director of inter-religious dialogue for the Palestenian Authority's Judicial Council.
Taken from: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50109
In your retort you are of course welcome to discredit the above quote for whatever reason but rest assured it was not a difficult google and there are plenty more. I'm sort of surpised that it was even necessary to go find a quote to demonstrate this. Also know that I am already aware of equally horrindous quotes that can be found coming Christians regarding Muslims.
The Pope's sermon when taken as a whole is not actually even about Muslims let alone against them. Nobody is, of course looking at the entire Sermon. I also think his sermon only qualifies as inflamatory rhetoric when reduced to it's single out of context quote who's words are not even his own:
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached"
These words were said by Emperor Manual II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire (1391-1425). Although ~600 years old do these words still sting even today? Is it because the words are so far from the truth or because they are uncomfortably close to the truth?
Let's ask Abdul Rahman what he thinks..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_(convert)
As a trivial side topic regarding the (quite silly) ?invention argument? you found yourself caught in earlier...
Originally posted by: Aimster
I want to know what invention "Christians" made that was so significant that it blew the rest of the world away."
How about: The Automobile.
Invented by Henry Ford, a Christian (and some say anti-semite?). Actually another Christian disputes Ford's claim as the original inventor but since both were Christian it doesn't really matter for the purposes of answering your question.
Originally posted by: raildogg
Originally posted by: tvarad
raildogg,
That's the biggest copout excuse given to what is happening in the middle east. There are more poverty ridden places on earth than the wretched middle east (e.g. Africa) and yet none of them exhibit the kind of destructive mindset that is manifest there and the Muslim world at large.
And there have been bigger injustices (if you can call it that) perpetrated on peoples than the creation of a country about the size of a large metropolitan American city. For example, the British took a meat-cleaver to the Indian sub-continent and hacked out two countries (now three) with half a million people dying by official estimates. And yet, no Indian is running around hijacking planes and flying them into buildings, indulging in suicide-bombings and the like to protest it. If anything, I would have thought that Indians would be more justified in bombing the London tube; yet Indians are one of the most successful and peaceful expatriates in Britain. And, btw, it is Pakistanis for whom the British created a country that are biting the hand that give them an identity.
No, the reasons go much deeper: it'a Naziesque mentality that conjures up historical injustices and perceived humiliations to encourage reactive violence which is used as a stock to mix a witches brew of hatred against non-Muslims.
I can give you a region that is in more poverty, and that is Africa. One genocide has already been commited and another one might be happening as we speak. Poverty is not the only reason for this. There are lots of reasons.
Speaking of copouts, you failed to interpret my post. You only looked at one aspect of it and determined that I was saying that poverty is to blame for the MidEast's problems. You have to look at the picture fairly and ask yourself some questions. Dig deeper. You say that the "destructive mindset that is manifest there and the Muslim world at large". Tell me about the great buildings and the great progess that is being made in Dubai, Kuwait and the other states nearby. Tell me about the Arab businessmen who have great influence. Are they destructive? And also tell me, why are they not bombing people and why are they not in misery?
Like I said before, most people choose to follow. This is true in America, England, India and just about anywhere else. The few successful ones have chosen to not follow but to think on their own. It is hard to do that in the MidEast, a place of conflict, corruption, and poverty.
The British and other powers, like you said, also took at that same meat-cleaver and carved out much of the MidEast. Same thing in Africa and elsewhere. A problem.
Well, as for Indians not commiting suicide bombings and terrorism, what about the Tamil Tigers? Weren't they the among the first ones to commit a suicide attack? Yes, that is in Sri Lanka, but they are ethnic Indians I believe. The point is that there are ignorant people in every part of the world. Some choose to fight all attempts to correct themselves and stay ignorant.
Yes, you are right in that Indians are very successful. Again, education. But not all parts of India are uniform. Some are most stable than others and some are more prosporous than others. Indians have done very well in America, Canada, England and elsewhere. There has to be a reason. But then again, there are many successful Arabs and other muslims in these parts as well. Also, there are more than 140 million muslims in India. You don't see them blowing up people.
As for Pakistan being created by Britan, I don't know about that. It seemed to me that it was mutual between India and Pakistan at that time and that Britain just nodded. It was clear that hindus and muslims had great animosity and it would have been hard to keep a single state.
Originally posted by: Smilin
I'm being ignored.
Do I have to say something hateful and ignorant to get a response around here???