Is it strange that while Chris was driving, I'm imagining Jeremy Clarkson narrating and jostling the car about its "Americaness"?
Vipers are really pretty crazy cars. Most folks, even enthusiasts, don't realize just small the wheelbase to torques ratio is in these. Add to that until recently they didn't even have any traction aids, and you get probably the most dangerous car you can buy straight from the factory.
Of course that might be the allure to some, until they give it a bit of gas easing away from the grocery store.
IMO it's what to get as a last meal of sorts if you're sick of life.
Vipers are still one of my favorite cars of all times. Loves how it still breaks records with it's "low tech" style. Embarrasses cars costing ten times as much.
I've been driving one for 5 years now and this has really not been my experience. With fresh tires and a bit of common sense they are quite docile.
That said, there are a lot of them out there with ancient tires because they look fine (lots of tread left!). They aren't fine. Even at the four year mark when I replaced the PS2s that I put on my car when I bought it (to replace the factory original tires it was delivered on) they were noticeably less sticky than when new. I got wheelspin in 3rd on a chilly morning from a roll at 45 mph, it was definitely time to replace them. Lots of people are clueless though.
There are also a lot of people who are idiots and drive far too close to the limit on the street. I have no illusions about my own driving ability I know the car is capable of way more than I will ever be. If you stay below those limits though it is easy and forgiving, even with 3.55 gears in it now.
Viper GTS
It takes a lot of skill to drive a car like this fast, which makes it a moot point for the overwhelming majority of owners.
I really don't think tires degrade that fast, and the problem isn't with absolute grip per se anyway. It's as mentioned the usually short wheelbase combine with ridiculous torque makes them very easy to power-on oversteer and swap ends in general, particularly without some sort of traction aid.
Swapping ends has more to do with weight transfer, and in a viper it's relatively easy to transfer weight quicker than the owner can respond. Other performance cars simply don't the same problem to the nearly the same extent. Or for example karts are also easy to get turned around in despite lack of much power and pretty decent grip for their weight. This means you basically have to drive like granny much of the time.
I also seriously doubt many viper owners are driving these cars hard enough to really heat cycle the tires.
Also, weight transfer occurs because of steering, brake, or accelerator inputs. So, it's basically impossible for weight transfer to occur faster than the driver can react because the driver is inducing the weight transfer. This is why lesson number one in fast driving is to be smooth and deliberate with control inputs.
The driver also needs to react to what they induce. Driving is a feedback system, and a way of putting this is some vehicles require greater sampling/input frequency because they're less stable.
Also, it's simply a fact that short wheelbase + torque = twitchy and generally on edge. It's the basic geometry of the car at play, true under braking as well as on throttle.
I don't know what your benchmark is for "short wheelbase", but a Miata is generally regarded as being one of the most controllable sports cars on the planet and it has a wheelbase 7.9" less than the Viper. And yes, they handle well.
Ostensibly the reason to get a viper is to get more performance than a mr2. I suppose if you only use as much torque as a much slower car it's not too bad.I have hours and hundreds upon hundreds of miles of Viper driving under my belt, as well as hours of wheel to wheel racing in mid-engine cars. I have experienced lift-off oversteer in an MR2 on a race track - power was not the reason.
It is not "simply a fact" that a car with torque is "generally on edge." Light to moderate throttle application while on the edge of grip will induce understeer. Anyone who's spent time on a skidpad will know this to be true. Deliberately putting your foot to the floor while flirting with death on the street is another story entirely, but ultimately the solution is to not drive like an idiot.
Simply put, the amount of grip available on a Viper far exceeds what any reasonable person will come remotely close to utilizing on the street. They are not "twitchy" or "on edge" even in spirited street driving. If you have personal experience and would like to disagree, please do so.
Recall the line about LS swap.The miata is also very narrow (and has little torque). Recall the line above about geometry.
agent00f said:Ostensibly the reason to get a viper is to get more performance than a mr2. I suppose if you only use as much torque as a much slower car it's not too bad.
Sure, in a smooth steady state. Meanwhile under dynamic conditions brakes at slightly wrong time, throttle at slightly wrong timing, rate of change of brake/throttle at wrong time, etc can all induce oversteer.
This guy is a decent enough driver with orders more magnitude more seat-time and he disagrees: http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...e-things-you-acr-the-legend-of-the-viper-acr/. He had an earlier review re-iterating just how terrifying it is to drive on the street I can't find.
Also, one of more veteran chrysler development engineers on the project died driving thing on the road in 2013.
An LS swap miata is not going to nearly as safe as a stock one, no matter what its builders claim.Recall the line about LS swap.
I'm alright in a kart, which are harder to handle and substantially more competitive than passenger cars.There is absolutely nothing in that article that disagrees with my statement. As I said, don't drive like an idiot and they're completely fine. You come across like a paper racer - would you like to share your high performance vehicle and/or racetrack driving experience with the class to dissuade my doubts?
Oversteer and understeer are caused when you exceed the grip available from the tires. This is not something you encounter on the street when you have as much grip as a Viper with good tires will happily provide.
Ultimately, I will take my own personal experience over the guy on the internet who read some article that said something. Feel free to not drive a Viper - it won't bother me.
An LS swap miata is not going to nearly as safe as a stock one, no matter what its builders claim.
I'm alright in a kart, which are harder to handle and substantially more competitive than passenger cars.
When I had a go in one of these I was already cognizant of these warnings and didn't have a deathwish. Even so it was easy to see what these other people were talking about when getting into the throttle somewhat. This is not an easy car to handle unless you're going consistently slow or something, especially on models with nothing to save you.
Now that doesn't mean it's flipping around everyday but rather it's easy to make a mistake sometimes, even the best of us will and because it doesn't happen daily you won't be expecting it; this car will make you pay. It also doesn't help that much of the body at least earlier is one piece and costs like $10k+.
Sure, and with that much torque & trivial availability of speed it's easy to accidentally overcome the tires. Again, I suppose you can drive it safely as possible at all times it can be alright, but people don't buy these to do that.
I specifically provided a reference to someone who has considerable experience driving many kinds of cars on a track and backroads, and still finds these a handful IRL. If anything it's people who believe their skills greater than they actually are who tend to get into trouble.
I distinctly recall Baruth reviewing a viper with aftermarket abs/traction and said it made a maniacal car at least somewhat driveable fast on the street. For whatever reason I can't google it. I suppose he does drive fast on the road, and thus is probably worth listening to when singling out a car for being particularly challenging.
The same thing that makes the viper a handful on a track is what makes it dangerous on the street. Not because you will die every time you press the throttle, but you will make some kind of mistake sooner or later, and its twitchy nature will bite; simply lifting off too fast on less than ideal surface/in the wrong gear, etc. What makes it worse is that most owners do not drive fast with any regularity and will not handle the bite well.
Car enthusiasts tend to have this romantic view that if only they owned so and so vehicle, they will be so fast and awesome. See the talk about disabling traction aids when this is a terrible idea for all but the most skilled drivers on a racetrack. This is similar to equipment fetish in any sport where tools are seen as the end instead of means.
What's not true, the fact that you won't die with every throttle activation or the fact that you will make a mistake sooner or later? The reality is that a miata will not snap nearly as hard as a viper when getting off the throttle too quick or whatever, in fact people who don't race regularly will get away with these mistakes often enough which they won't in a difficult car.
I don't understand your argument. So your modified MR2 is possibly worse than a viper, and you haven't put it into a wall yet so the viper is safe at the hands of swooning fanboys?
Any reasonable kart is far more twitchy than any passenger car, and go wheel to wheel as matter of course, and I'm evidently still alive, so do I win something by default?
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for clarification, I say possibly because the buildup of torque is more gradual in a turbo, and it's usually quick on/off application of throttle which usually gets people into trouble with these kind of cars (often followed by misapplication of brakes & maybe steering). Stabbing at the gas, intentional or not, will probably get you into trouble in the viper that it won't in your mr2.