Christian Taliban alive and well in the United States

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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
Then perhaps I misunderstood the following post, because I thought you were saying that you did not agree that society had become more prudish.



As I said, we are starting to come out of it, but it sure seems like you disagreed with me and now agree with me.

No, I do not agree that we're becoming more prudish. I only agree with your presentation of things which have happened in the past. Whether all that amounts to a big surge in prudishness, or is just business as usual in this country, is a matter of opinion. And on that opinion, we do disagree. Attitudes toward sex in the general population have been liberalizing for decades. Millennials are more socially liberal than any prior generation. This can cause a backlash among cultural conservatives which results in the kinds of things you're discussing. There's always going to be decency police, and occasionally they may win a small battle, but with the raging surge of sex and nudity, not only on the internet, but on cable and pay television, these days all they are doing is putting their fingers into a dam which has already burst.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
No, I do not agree that we're becoming more prudish. I only agree with your presentation of things which have happened in the past. Whether all that amounts to a big surge in prudishness, or is just business as usual in this country, is a matter of opinion. And on that opinion, we do disagree. Attitudes toward sex in the general population have been liberalizing for decades. Millennials are more socially liberal than any prior generation. This can cause a backlash among cultural conservatives which results in the kinds of things you're discussing. There's always going to be decency police, and occasionally they may win a small battle, but with the raging surge of sex and nudity, not only on the internet, but on cable and pay television, these days all they are doing is putting their fingers into a dam which has already burst.

So what would you consider to be evidence to back up that society is becoming more prudish then? You have past examples, government regulation, and yet you still don't think its enough to show a shift in the culture? We had things we were okay with before, and then they were not okay any longer because of a change in... ?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
So what would you consider to be evidence to back up that society is becoming more prudish then? You have past examples, government regulation, and yet you still don't think its enough to show a shift in the culture? We had things we were okay with before, and then they were not okay any longer because of a change in... ?

An opinion survey on attitudes about sex, one which is conducted at different times for comparison purposes, would shed light on whether we as a society are becoming more or less prudish. So far as the actions of decency police types, there are too few to generalize these actions to the attitudes of the general populace. When sexual expression becomes more prevalent, people like that tend to get very angry and will do things to suppress it which could well mean that, ironically, the more active these people become, the less prudish we are as a society. I suspect that is what has really been going on, but a good pair of surveys, conducted say 20 years apart but asking the same questions, would clarify it.

Edit: took me awhile, but I found this here:

http://news.gallup.com/poll/183719/men-women-differ-morals-sex-relationships.aspx

Shows a general liberal trend over time in opinions about various sexual behaviors.
 
Last edited:

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Different societies can have different standards. Not every location in the USA has the same low standards you do. However, with all that junk available on the Internet, I dont see the point. Sports illustrated swimsuit edition and online site is just as slutty as classical nude statues.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I was just looking at an article about some woman that put glitter on her bare breasts and went to a concert. Some guy touched her and she went and beat him up. I don't know what kind of message we should be sending.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
I was just looking at an article about some woman that put glitter on her bare breasts and went to a concert. Some guy touched her and she went and beat him up. I don't know what kind of message we should be sending.

Don't touch a woman's breast unless she specifically asks you to?
 
Reactions: Meghan54

Smoblikat

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2011
5,184
107
106
Oh no, a butt. No child on earth has seen, or even knows the existence of those. Thats why poop and fart jokes are so funny to them, they have no idea where that shit comes from!

Maybe I missed it, but what does this have to do with christains or the taliban?
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
I was just looking at an article about some woman that put glitter on her bare breasts and went to a concert. Some guy touched her and she went and beat him up. I don't know what kind of message we should be sending.
whos "we"? how about not invading others personal space. you know, that thing that schools start teaching in preschool.

in some states she coulda shot him.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,264
8,192
136
I was just looking at an article about some woman that put glitter on her bare breasts and went to a concert. Some guy touched her and she went and beat him up. I don't know what kind of message we should be sending.

I think I saw that item. I thought she punched him, which is not really the same as beating him up. Dunno about the baring of boobs, as I'd sure as hell be distracted by them, but one could certainly argue it should be no different to a guy going topless and blokes do that quite often. In any case I don't see anything inconsistent in objecting to someone groping you. As a bloke I might get naked in a communal changing room, but that doesn't mean someone can cop a feel.

If she'd punched him just for looking, that would be unfair, I guess.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
pisaturd, comeback and see what a whooping she laid on him, tremendous pain inflicted.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
I think the confounding variable here is that the lens in which we see various sexual or nudity-related displays changes over time. It is not as simple as measuring a global attitude toward sex and nudity. In prior generations, exposure and veneration of classical artwork was much greater, and it is not so much that prior generations had different attitudes toward sex as that prior generations viewed classical artwork as not sexual. This is one example where we seem more prudish than the past. Yet if someone who went into a coma in the 50's woke up now and saw the bikinis ladies were sporting on the beaches, they'd be in shock. And if a 9 year-old pre-pubescent girl was running around on that beach without a bikini top, many modern-day people would be mortified and that coma guy would be wondering why she was the only one. Many things are not really inherently sexual. They are sexualized by a person's cultural upbringing.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
I think the confounding variable here is that the lens in which we see various sexual or nudity-related displays changes over time. It is not as simple as measuring a global attitude toward sex and nudity. In prior generations, exposure and veneration of classical artwork was much greater, and it is not so much that prior generations had different attitudes toward sex as that prior generations viewed classical artwork as not sexual. This is one example where we seem more prudish than the past. Yet if someone who went into a coma in the 50's woke up now and saw the bikinis ladies were sporting on the beaches, they'd be in shock. And if a 9 year-old pre-pubescent girl was running around on that beach without a bikini top, many modern-day people would be mortified and that coma guy would be wondering why she was the only one. Many things are not really inherently sexual. They are sexualized by a person's cultural upbringing.

Even that depends. The 50's beach was more covered, yet there were still two piece bikinis back then. Don't forget that Vegas was around back then and the "Adult" world it had was very sexual. Marilyn Monroe was very much a thing. It was also the time of Playboy. Nude artwork was very much a thing around that time too, but pictures were seen as different. It would not be uncommon to see nude paintings of women as artwork in upscale areas. Perhaps not family places, but if it mainly catered to adults then nude art was not a problem.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
Even that depends. The 50's beach was more covered, yet there were still two piece bikinis back then. Don't forget that Vegas was around back then and the "Adult" world it had was very sexual. Marilyn Monroe was very much a thing. It was also the time of Playboy. Nude artwork was very much a thing around that time too, but pictures were seen as different. It would not be uncommon to see nude paintings of women as artwork in upscale areas. Perhaps not family places, but if it mainly catered to adults then nude art was not a problem.

Right. Doesn't matter how much granular detail you get. It all lends to the same point. We have cultural attitudes about sex and cultural attitudes about what is sexual and how much, and all of these things are pretty fluid.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
Right. Doesn't matter how much granular detail you get. It all lends to the same point. We have cultural attitudes about sex and cultural attitudes about what is sexual and how much, and all of these things are pretty fluid.

It's all very fluid, what is perceived as acceptable and what isn't. However, it would be ridiculous to claim we aren't more sexually permissive overall now than we were in the 1950's. Sex and nudity are vastly more prevalent in our popular culture now than they were then. Opinion surveys show attitudes about porn, sex out of wedlock, homosexuality, and adultery have become more permissive over time. Etc etc.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
It's all very fluid, what is perceived as acceptable and what isn't. However, it would be ridiculous to claim we aren't more sexually permissive overall now than we were in the 1950's. Sex and nudity are vastly more prevalent in our popular culture now than they were then. Opinion surveys show attitudes about porn, sex out of wedlock, homosexuality, and adultery have become more permissive over time. Etc etc.

I generally agree, but I also see a lot of attitudes that are expressed about these things (and many others) that I think are a result of reaction formation. In other words, people that feel differently at an unconscious level but take an often exaggerated stance for the opposite because how they really feel isn't acceptable.

That said, I think the reactive stances are mostly the precursors to genuine ones as society adapts over time. Thus, I both agree with the general direction you state and observe that we're way more conflicted about it than we're letting on.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
I generally agree, but I also see a lot of attitudes that are expressed about these things (and many others) that I think are a result of reaction formation. In other words, people that feel differently at an unconscious level but take an often exaggerated stance for the opposite because how they really feel isn't acceptable.

You mean like people with latent same sex desires who are outwardly homophobic?

That said, I think the reactive stances are mostly the precursors to genuine ones as society adapts over time. Thus, I both agree with the general direction you state and observe that we're way more conflicted about it than we're letting on.

Sure. Consider the fact that 90% of males watch porn at least from time to time, while surveys say that only 40% of men think porn is "morally acceptable." And also religious states are the ones with the highest per capita porn consumption. Yes, we're quite conflicted over sex.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
You mean like people with latent same sex desires who are outwardly homophobic?

That's one example. But I also have to say that it's not the same as them being secretly gay. If the idea of a being homosexual is so absolutely horrifically unacceptable to their self-image, even things like appreciating that a dude is handsome or incidentally looking at their package in a locker room can create some pretty serious reaction formation. And sometimes a person does have actual sexual desire for men. You can't really know just because they display exaggerated homophobia.

Sure. Consider the fact that 90% of males watch porn at least from time to time, while surveys say that only 40% of men think porn is "morally acceptable." And also religious states are the ones with the highest per capita porn consumption. Yes, we're quite conflicted over sex.

Yep. And don't forget that people quite often lie on anonymous surveys even if they trust that the survey is truly anonymous.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,264
8,192
136
I think the confounding variable here is that the lens in which we see various sexual or nudity-related displays changes over time. It is not as simple as measuring a global attitude toward sex and nudity. In prior generations, exposure and veneration of classical artwork was much greater, and it is not so much that prior generations had different attitudes toward sex as that prior generations viewed classical artwork as not sexual. This is one example where we seem more prudish than the past. Yet if someone who went into a coma in the 50's woke up now and saw the bikinis ladies were sporting on the beaches, they'd be in shock. And if a 9 year-old pre-pubescent girl was running around on that beach without a bikini top, many modern-day people would be mortified and that coma guy would be wondering why she was the only one. Many things are not really inherently sexual. They are sexualized by a person's cultural upbringing.


True, but, also, why the constant references to the '50s in these sorts of arguments? In a whole host of ways the 1950's were unusual (crime, for example, was at an unusually low level, compared to both before and after, and yet when A Certain Generation goes on about crime they always use the 1950's as a baseline). Shouldn't the question be considered over a much longer time scale? Attitudes to sexual matters in the 18th century seem to have been very different to the 19th. Why not go back to medieval times or ancient Greece?

Though the thing that I have doubts about is the idea that there's some 'natural' attitude to sexual matters that we should be trying to achieve, stripping out all the 'unnatural' social taboos or 'artificial' forms of sexualisation. I kind of suspect its 'turtles all the way down', i.e. that it's all socially-determined and it will never stop changing and we'll never reach a 'true' or 'natural' attitude to it and it will always be a source of problems and arguments. Maybe.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
True, but, also, why the constant references to the '50s in these sorts of arguments? In a whole host of ways the 1950's were unusual (crime, for example, was at an unusually low level, compared to both before and after, and yet when A Certain Generation goes on about crime they always use the 1950's as a baseline). Shouldn't the question be considered over a much longer time scale? Attitudes to sexual matters in the 18th century seem to have been very different to the 19th. Why not go back to medieval times or ancient Greece?

The 50s are an idealized time of conservative society. My choice is mostly just availability bias due to that. But it's not completely arbitrary. 50s America is a lot more linearly connected to modern America than ancient Greece.

Though the thing that I have doubts about is the idea that there's some 'natural' attitude to sexual matters that we should be trying to achieve, stripping out all the 'unnatural' social taboos or 'artificial' forms of sexualisation. I kind of suspect its 'turtles all the way down', i.e. that it's all socially-determined and it will never stop changing and we'll never reach a 'true' or 'natural' attitude to it and it will always be a source of problems and arguments. Maybe.

I think if you raised a man and a woman in complete social isolation and then brought them together after reaching sexual maturity you'd find them engaging in sex and probably killing each other also. There is something instinctual about sex.

And your observation is also very much correct. There is no natural or perfect sexuality either. It's always socially driven, blurred lines (goddamnit that song is on my head now), and conflict. But that's not because we've failed to figure out sex. That's because it's what makes sex exciting. We want it because it's taboo and aggressive, both scorned and lauded by society at the same time. We want to express our desires to dominate and to be dominated. We want to make another vulnerable and to be vulnerable ourselves. And we want to be gentle, tender, loving at the same time as dominating, penetrating, hurting, angry. Sex is a way to enact all these conflicts. If we weren't conflicted about it, it wouldn't be much fun.

That's also why a clear and consistent boundary between sex and sexual assault is a fantasy. While there are clear examples of consent and violation, there's a whole lot that simply went too far for one person without the other person appreciating it. Which is why I'm not simply going to teach my kids that no means no and to get consent, I'm going to teach them empathy and the value of another person's autonomy. I don't think I probably have to teach them about rape and consent if they get the other, but I'll do both anyway.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Right. Doesn't matter how much granular detail you get. It all lends to the same point. We have cultural attitudes about sex and cultural attitudes about what is sexual and how much, and all of these things are pretty fluid.

Yep, and pushing those boundaries can not only be fun but healthy. There is also a downside as exploration may lead to situations that someone may not be ready for physically or mentally.
 
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