Christians Victims Of Rising Hostility From Government/Secular Groups

[soulcougher73]

Some want to remove religious "fantasy"? What about Santa Clause? Why not remove him? He's the biggest fantasy known to man. The same people wanting to get rid of "religious fantasy" are the same idiots buying their kids Christmas gifts on "Jesus' birthday".. How silly is that?

Forcibly removing religion isn't going to end up in the paradise you anticipate.

Because at some point people realize Santa/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy isnt real. A lot of you seem to skip the step of realizing that God isnt real either.

 

[Retro Rob]

Because at some point people realize Santa/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy isnt real. A lot of you seem to skip the step of realizing that God isnt real either.

Do you celebrate Christmas? Be honest if you do ... which I am inclined to believe.

But parents still teach their kids that those are real.

Strawman.

 

[soulcougher73]

I guess you want a society to where if you can't prove it, you can't say it.

Ok -- well, we can get rid of opinions, right? Opinion are largely unprovable "babble" too. I have a strange feeling you're going way beyond that "private institutions", stuff.

While I respect what you're saying here, it's just silly in the long term. You have a right not to listen, not to go to church... exercise that right. If you want to silence religious people on the "burden of proof" grounds, then you have the "burden of proof" to show why people shouldn't talk about what they believe to be true.

.. unless you're ready for a world that puts limits on what we can express unless we can prove it true...

Have fun with that...

People for millenia have shown proof why believing in God is retarded. But you believers cant grasp the truth for some reason. Plus we all agree the "burden of proof" lies with the believer, not the other way around.

 

[soulcougher73]

Do you celebrate Christmas? Be honest if you do ... which I am inclined to believe.

But parents still teach their kids that those are real.

Strawman.

I celebrate it as a fun time to give gifts and spend time with family. That is as far as it goes with me. I celebrate no religious aspects of it.

 

[Retro Rob]

People for millenia have shown proof why believing in God is retarded. But you believers cant grasp the truth for some reason. Plus we all agree the "burden of proof" lies with the believer, not the other way around.

... so why should it been deemed necessary to tell people that they can't teach something they believe to be true?

So you don't care about violating people's rights, huh? But you want yours upheld.

 

[soulcougher73]

Do you celebrate Christmas? Be honest if you do ... which I am inclined to believe.

But parents still teach their kids that those are real.

Strawman.

And also...they stop teaching its real at some point. Usually when you figure it out that they were lying to you the whole time. Again..why skip the God part?

 

[soulcougher73]

... so why should it been deemed necessary to tell people that they can't teach something they believe to be true?

So you don't care about violating people's rights, huh? But you want yours upheld.

They can teach it all they want at church and in their homes. But once it enters public places not of worship is where the problem starts.

 

[Retro Rob]

I celebrate it as a fun time to give gifts and spend time with family. That is as far as it goes with me. I celebrate no religious aspects of it.

You don't have to be religious. The whole point of Christmas is to celebrate Jesus' birth (who, according to you, is fantasy). No matter how you slice it.

You cannot have a weaker strawman than this.

 

[soulcougher73]

You don't have to be religious. The whole point of Christmas is to celebrate Jesus' birth (who, according to you, is fantasy). No matter how you slice it.

You cannot have a weaker strawman than this.

Why would i celebrate Jesus' birthday when im not religious? I was never raised to see Christmas as anything other than giving of gifts and friends/family.

Christmas doesnt need religion to survive.

 

[Retro Rob]

Why would i celebrate Jesus' birthday when im not religious? I was never raised to see Christmas as anything other than giving of gifts and friends/family.

Christmas doesnt need religion to survive.

I didn't say it did. I am saying that people celebrate based on (1 the fact the Jesus is REAL and 2) that he was born on that day.

Regardless if you know it or not, that's what you're doing.

You cannot attend a family members birthday party, give them gifts, while NOT believing that they are REAL and were born on that day.

 

[soulcougher73]

I didn't say it did. I am saying that people celebrate based on (1 the fact the Jesus is REAL and 2) that he was born on that day.

Regardless if you know it or not, that's what you're doing.

You cannot attend a family members birthday party, give them gifts, while NOT believing that they are REAL and were born on that day.

He wasnt born on Decemeber 25th. Everyone knows this.

Here is some light history reading of Christmas for you.

http://realtruth.org/articles/169-ttooc.html

 

[alzan]

This is garbage.

All you have to do is simply walk away and/or tell them you're not interested. If you're not entertaining them, they can't "force" anything on you. So what if they talk about it. That's their right as well,... as it is YOUr right not to listen.

What people want to do is legislate away religion (the end justifies the means, eh) by any means and even maliciously removing their rights... and then you run aground of legislating what in people's minds and telling them that they can't share it.

You anti-religious zealots need to think and stop looking at what YOU want. Once you legislate what someone can or cannot believe/teach to their children, you open the door to having legislated the anti-religious/secular stuff YOU want to teach YOUR children, and so on so forth. Oh, but that aint right...:whiste:

Some want to remove religious "fantasy"? What about Santa Clause? Why not remove him? He's the biggest fantasy known to man. The same people wanting to get rid of "religious fantasy" are the same idiots buying their kids Christmas gifts on "Jesus' birthday".. How silly is that?

Forcibly removing religion isn't going to end up in the paradise you anticipate.

True, people can and do walk away from zealots who claim that they're just concerned about their soul. I've always found the street-preaching, handing out tracts, etc. to be counter-productive; an "in your face" tactic that's bound to end badly. Most people don't want to be told that they're going to hell by a non-descript stranger, nor do they want to be told that the only way to get into heaven is by doing "X". I'm not saying they don't have freedom of speech, just saying that they're most likely driving away people who might actually be interested were it not for the "in your face" attitude.

No one is trying to legislate away religion; hell here in Missouri the dark side just got a new interpretation of the state's 2nd amendment passed (although it is being challenged) that allows little Johnny and Janey Christian to opt out of school assignments that challenge their beliefs, e.g. Evolution. Also no one wants to bring about the thought police either; and you or any other Christian is allowed to share their views with other Christians.

No one is trying to legislate what you or any other believer wants to believe or teach your children, at least not in this country. School is for learning, not for preaching or proselytizing. All property owners pay taxes that support public schools, most do not want their taxes paying for someone else's religion being taught to children. Teach your kids about the Bible at home and teach them to check their faith and beliefs at the classroom door. Also, secularism isn't a religion.

The idea and fact of Santa Claus does have some religious basis in history; certain European countries have a Santa-like saint in their religion's archives. Modern Christmas, in Europe, U.S. etc., however you may think of it is an amalgam of different belief systems; chiefly Christian and Pagan and Roman beliefs. Also, as I pointed out in a different thread the actual date of Jesus' birth is in debate but most scholars think it was in March, due to star positions.

Forcibly removing religion may not end up in the paradise we think it will, but forcing people to believe in a religion won't result in paradise either.

 

[Retro Rob]

True, people can and do walk away from zealots who claim that they're just concerned about their soul. I've always found the street-preaching, handing out tracts, etc. to be counter-productive; an "in your face" tactic that's bound to end badly. Most people don't want to be told that they're going to hell by a non-descript stranger, nor do they want to be told that the only way to get into heaven is by doing "X". I'm not saying they don't have freedom of speech, just saying that they're most likely driving away people who might actually be interested were it not for the "in your face" attitude.

Told they're going to Hell? Naw, that shouldn't be happening. It's hard for me to fathom that they are doing that like you said, but not too far-fetced though. Honestly, if people don't come to church, how can religious folks reach them? The whole point is to talk to people. A lot of people don't attend church for various reasons, however.

No one is trying to legislate away religion; hell here in Missouri the dark side just got a new interpretation of the state's 2nd amendment passed (although it is being challenged) that allows little Johnny and Janey Christian to opt out of school assignments that challenge their beliefs, e.g. Evolution. Also no one wants to bring about the thought police either; and you or any other Christian is allowed to share their views with other Christians.

I personally don't find anything wrong with doing an assignment concerning Evolution, though I personally don't believe in it. It's an assignment.. and I would personally see it as a way to get a passing grade, if it were me. I don't take offense to that in school.

No one is trying to legislate what you or any other believer wants to believe or teach your children, at least not in this country. School is for learning, not for preaching or proselytizing. All property owners pay taxes that support public schools, do not want their taxes paying for someone else's religion being taught to children. Teach your kids about the Bible at home and teach them to check their faith and beliefs at the classroom door. Also, secularism isn't a religion.

I agree, if they don't want preaching in school, respect that.

What I was saying, is that if people want to stop people from preaching in public, then they are saying that you shouldn't talk about what you believe in. You're basically outlawing public opinion, in a way, because since some believe God doesn't exist and tangible evidence isn't there, then we shouldn't talk about it. That opens the box to things that will rip out society to pieces. If people don't want to listen, let them know. Don't entertain Christians, then say they're "forcing" something on you because they can't unless you allow it.

That's a totalitarian Government at that point. What the?

The idea and fact of Santa Claus does have some religious basis in history; certain European countries have a Santa-like saint in their religion's archives. Modern Christmas, in Europe, U.S. etc., however you may think of it is an amalgam of different belief systems; chiefly Christian and Pagan and Roman beliefs. Also, as I pointed out in a different thread the actual date of Jesus' birth is in debate but most scholars think it was in March, due to star positions.

Agreed.

Forcibly removing religion may not end up in the paradise we think it will, but forcing people to believe in a religion won't result in paradise either.

Again, forcing how? On an individual basis (public preaching), they're not. But on private stages, I am inclined to agree to stay away if not allowed by the owner.

 

[alzan]

Told they're going to Hell? Naw, that shouldn't be happening. It's hard for me to fathom that they are doing that like you said, but not too far-fetced though. Honestly, if people don't come to church, how can religious folks reach them? The whole point is to talk to people. A lot of people don't attend church for various reasons, however.

I personally don't find anything wrong with doing an assignment concerning Evolution, though I personally don't believe in it. It's an assignment.. and I would personally see it as a way to get a passing grade, if it were me. I don't take offense to that in school.



I agree, if they don't want preaching in school, respect that.

What I was saying, is that if people want to stop people from preaching in public, then they are saying that you shouldn't talk about what you believe in. You're basically outlawing public opinion, in a way, because since some believe God doesn't exist and tangible evidence isn't there, then we shouldn't talk about it. That opens the box to things that will rip out society to pieces. If people don't want to listen, let them know. Don't entertain Christians, then say they're "forcing" something on you because they can't unless you allow it.

That's a totalitarian Government at that point. What the?


Agreed.

Again, forcing how? On an individual basis (public preaching), they're not. But on private stages, I am inclined to agree to stay away if not allowed by the owner.

I know that you and other evangelists feel that you have some duty or edict to bring the gospel to the world; call me cynical but I think it's just an excuse to get in peoples' faces. There's no shortage of Christian places of worship, literature, sponsored public events. In the relatively small city I live in there are several areas where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a church (slight embellishment but you know what I mean.) My only real point is that Christianity or any religion is there so that people reach out to them. I've never been a big fan of people who talk the talk. I'm more impressed and respectful of people who live their lives according to their faith; and I'm certainly more open to listening to them.

I'm not aware of any place in this country where talking about what you believe in is being quashed. I certainly think that there's people on both sides of the aisle that would like the government to step in to enforce a solution one way or another. Some people don't want to hear it and have to because they're waiting for a bus at a bus stop next to some street preacher; some because they're relaxing in a public park and don't want to move when Mr./Ms. Fire and Brimstone want to speak. I personally handle it by laughing at them and walking away if I'm able.

Some of the cases cited by this study in the OP concern graduating students and the things they are not allowed to say to a captive audience (parents, siblings, relatives are not likely to leave before Johnny or Janey get their diploma.) Some guests at the ceremony don't share the Christian valedictorian/salutatorian's beliefs or religion; that's why the speeches should be secular in nature. They can give their thanks or praise to G-d silently before/after speaking or at some other point.

It would be a totalitarian government if they showed favor to either side. Government prefers to stay out of the picture; as well some of them do have regulations that say if you want to speak in the public square you have to have a permit. It's not putting an undo burden on religious folk so much as it is a CYA for government officials.

I'm no legal eagle but I think preaching in public in some cases falls under the "captive audience" principle; someone waiting for a bus is a captive audience, people in line waiting for an office or store to open, and other situations. You're not always able to just walk away and not listen.

 

[lotus503]

I didn't say it did. I am saying that people celebrate based on (1 the fact the Jesus is REAL and 2) that he was born on that day.

Regardless if you know it or not, that's what you're doing.

You cannot attend a family members birthday party, give them gifts, while NOT believing that they are REAL and were born on that day.

Incorrect bending to societal past times does not mean someone has to believe it. I think Jesus was a nice guy, but he really doesn't have anything to do with our Xmas celebrations.

We tell the kids what Xmas is and that while we don't believe Jesus is god we celebrate the gift giving, tree with lights, hell I even put lights around my garage.

Blame Macy's they commercialized it.

 

[Pens1566]

I didn't say it did. I am saying that people celebrate based on (1 the fact the Jesus is REAL and 2) that he was born on that day.

Regardless if you know it or not, that's what you're doing.

You cannot attend a family members birthday party, give them gifts, while NOT believing that they are REAL and were born on that day.

You do realize he wasn't really born (if he existed at all, that is) on Dec. 25th, right?

 

[Iron Wolf]

I have had a Muslim friend who was not born and raised in this country ask me honestly why there is separation of church and state here. When I pointed out that that if a government had the power to regulate religion, they could easily pass anti-religion laws and even tax religions out of existence if they so chose, he seemed to accept it if not fully understand it.

My opinion is that we should go back to the time when neither sex, politics, nor religion was discussed in polite company. Like anything else personal, if it stays behind closed doors, it is fine. As a Christian (or any other faith), you have 8 hours a day when you are at work or in school, and 16 hours a day when you are not. Is it really too much to ask that you confine your beliefs to the 2/3 of your life when you are not in public?

It case it wasn't clear, I'll state my point more strongly -- religious beliefs are disgraceful and shameful, showing a complete lack of willpower and unwillingness to take personal responsibility for your own life, and should be hidden from public view.

Maybe I'm just oversensitive, but Jesus freaks like Tebow get under my skin and drive me nuts. (Like if there really was a God, he would give a shit whether you won a stupid football game or not, or he would purposely make the other team lose.) Mormons are a dangerous cult, mostly because they are particularly aggressive in trying to foist their demented beliefs on others. And don't get me started on Muslims. Every one I've met (and I know several), outwardly appears "Americanized", but they all believe that America should be 100% Muslim and under Sharia law. Scary stuff, especially for an atheist like me, and especially one who looks back at all of the strife and turmoil that religion has caused throughout history, and which continues to this day.

 

[Retro Rob]

It case it wasn't clear, I'll state my point more strongly -- religious beliefs are disgraceful and shameful, showing a complete lack of willpower and unwillingness to take personal responsibility for your own life, and should be hidden from public view.

I am glad I don't live in the country you're proposing. No wonder Americans would never vote an Atheist into office (Presidential).

Basically, trample on people's rights because of your personal opinions. Atheist totalitarianism at its finest. What if people didn't care about Atheistic POV's? Could we rightfully declare that your views have no merit and no place in public domain? How would that make you feel?

[/QUOTE]

 

[BudAshes]

I am glad I don't live in the country you're proposing. No wonder Americans would never vote an Atheist into office (Presidential).

Basically, trample on people's rights because of your personal opinions. Atheist totalitarianism at its finest. What if people didn't care about Atheistic POV's? Could we rightfully declare that your views have no merit and no place in public domain? How would that make you feel?

Atheist point of view is science, so enjoy the dark ages son.

 

[Retro Rob]

Atheist point of view is science, so enjoy the dark ages son.

Will do!

 

[Iron Wolf]

I am glad I don't live in the country you're proposing. No wonder Americans would never vote an Atheist into office (Presidential).

Basically, trample on people's rights because of your personal opinions. Atheist totalitarianism at its finest. What if people didn't care about Atheistic POV's? Could we rightfully declare that your views have no merit and no place in public domain? How would that make you feel?

[/QUOTE]

Basically, that's what you are saying. That I have to tolerate religion and religious references in public even though it makes me uncomfortable, just because the majority believes in fairy tales. So, like much else in our society, a prime example of tyranny of the majority. And one of the reasons that our republican form of government has failed. And it makes me feel like crap, BTW.

 

[Retro Rob]

Basically, that's what you are saying. That I have to tolerate religion and religious references in public even though it makes me uncomfortable, just because the majority believes in fairy tales. So, like much else in our society", a prime example of tyranny of the majority. And one of the reasons that our republican form of government has failed. And it makes me feel like crap, BTW.

You're free to leave the US then - you don't HAVE to tolerate anything.

I personally couldn't care less about what Atheists think, however, I wouldn't force you to keep your opinions "behind closed doors".. and it makes me uncomfortable as well with your "God doesn't exist" stuff.

You can't have rights to talk your talk, while excluding others from the same "rights". You won't make it a week in Office before someone assassinates you.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

You're free to leave the US then - you don't HAVE to tolerate anything.

I personally couldn't care less about what Atheists think, however, I wouldn't force you to keep your opinions "behind closed doors".. and it makes me uncomfortable as well with your "God doesn't exist" stuff.

You can't have rights to talk your talk, while excluding others from the same "rights". You won't make it a week in Office before someone assassinates you.

YOU'RE free to leave the US, and this country was founded by people who believed religion had no place in politics and lawmaking. We're all free to believe in what we want, but we should not be subject to the moral guidebook one group or another lives by.

 

[Retro Rob]

YOU'RE free to leave the US, and this country was founded by people who believed religion had no place in politics and lawmaking. We're all free to believe in what we want, but we should not be subject to the moral guidebook one group or another lives by.

The heck are you talking about?

I agree religion should be totally separate. I don't agree with trampling over anyone's rights, however.

 

[SMOGZINN]

When atheists talk about removing religion from the public square we don't mean literally removing it from a square that is public, we are talking about the state business.

Religion has no place in a government forum. Any attempt to give religion a say always ends up disenfranchising some group, which is what separation of church and state is specifically attempting to prevent.

So, if you feel the need to pray before your senate meeting, you are most welcome to do it privately, or even with a group of like minded people, as long as you are not expecting tax dollars pay for it, or for non-like-minded people to be required to participate (even passively) in order to do government business.

Similarly, religious symbolism should be avoided in government funded areas. Otherwise you are promoting one religion over others. By having a copy of the 10 commandments up in your courthouse you are telling me that as an atheist I am unlikely to get a fair treatment. No matter if that is the message you intended, that is the one I (and other non-Christians) receive.