Chromosome challenge

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dgevert

Senior member
Dec 6, 2004
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Maybe the resident "paleontology expert" (cough, sorry, seems I have something in my throat) would like to explain this:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faq...c/images/hominids2.jpg

Maybe if the resident "expert" can choke down her hatred of all things scientific and grasp, for a moment, that just because something is hosted on talkorigins, doesn't mean it isn't scientific or valid, she would like to explain to us which of these fossils is "human."

Maybe then, the resident "expert" would like to explain to us why we see such similiarity here. And why it corresponds so well with genetic evidence such as the example I gave in the opening post. And why it also corresponds with the pattern of difference we see in the pseudogene for Vitamin C synthesis. And why a geneology based on endogeneous retroviruses agree so well with the geneologies based on the fossil record, genetics, and the Vitamin C synthesis pseudogene.

Or maybe, more likely, methinks, the resident "expert" will simply respond with another use of the logical fallacy known as the argument from ignorance,

Simply: no one knows the unknown, and to speculate over it is a tail chasing...
- Terumo

or her claim that two chromosomes merging must, necessarily result in genetic disorders, based on her limited knowledge and ignorance,

Or commit yet another logical fallacy, poisoning the well yet again because I dared to link to something on the dreaded Talk.Origins servers?

Will she continue to fail to realize that TalkOrigins itself is not a singular entity, but comprised of articles written by a variety of experts on the topic? Will she continue to ignore the fact that TalkOrigins articles are almost always well-researched with full sources and bibliographies?

Will she continue to ignore the fact that they often even LINK to (alleged) refutations of their articles? (When has Answers in Genesis or "Dr." Kent Hovind ever done this?)

Will she continue to ignore the fact that only one side in this debate consistently has valid credentials?

What drivel will she come up with next, folks?
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
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Originally posted by: Terumo
You'll find quickly that I don't bluff on these things. .

Cquark:
If you have read the relevant literature, what's your refutation of it?

Simply: no one knows the unknown, and to speculate over it is a tail chasing

That's not a refutation or even an argument; it's a blind assertion of ignorance.

Since you repeatedly have claimed extensive scientific expertise, why won't you stop bluffing? You claim you don't bluff above, but time and time again, you claim expertise but cannot demonstrate it. Why can't you offer a scientific argument against even one of those articles on speciation?
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
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A nightly forlay in the stacks produces......
Microbiology and Disease - Tuberculosis

Disease Process of the Spine - TB - Pott's Disease

You'll find quickly that I don't bluff on these things.

Don't judge a book by it's cover, cquark. I'm not Establishment.

If you're trying to impress with those links... uh, you'll need to try a LOT harder.

Click on the second link in my sig. That should tell you how much I've read, let alone studied -- and why the pics above aren't just for show.

4th (?) time you've told us you're a forensic anthropologist.

Don't let me start on the adapation of Clostridia bacteria to environmental extremes (and what it can do to chocolate), either.

Irrelevant. See the OP.

My interest is with the bones and pathology (which I thought someone would bring up by now!!).

So sorry to disappoint you. The OP is about chromosomes, not bones.

On the other hand, if you know your pathology, give us your lecture from above about cancer and chromosomes.
 

Terumo

Banned
Jan 23, 2005
575
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Now since introductions have been made, let's get down to some real studying and learning -- not copying and pasting links.

This is an excellent argument about the genetic issues of our ancestory, but makes some errors. I'm wondering if any of you Talkorigin types can pick them out (now you're suppose to be all learnt in Evolution, so you're suppose to pick out the logical fallacies contained).

But here read this much of the argument (highlighted and rebuttal parts are mine for emphasis).....

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/hegene.htm

Neanderthals in the family

One of the most fascinating of the old genes is Melanocortion-1.

It seems that a genetic study of the melanocortin 1 receptor (MC1R) shows that this gene has enough variability to date it around 1,000,000 years for its origin. The date comes from the fact that there are so many mutant forms of this gene that it would take one million years for them to arise.

[Terumo: How did he conclude this fact? How can he assume that it'll take 1,000,000 years for a Melanocortion-1 to mutate? Carbon or potassium-argon dating? So a reading in a pit in Timbuktu is now a fact.....hmmmmmm]

There are two alleles which have a date of origin of 100,000 years.

[Terumo: and here we have a guesstimate based on a very limited source, again.]

This might not seem important until it is recognized that these two are the red-hair genes. Red hair is only found in two places on the earth--Europe within the former territory of the Neanderthals and Papua New Guinea (but Harding seems to think that the Papuan example is a case of demographic history rather than selection (Harding and Rees)). Now, this gene is not found in Africans who, according to the Recent Out of Africa view, are the only ones who are supposed to have contributed to the modern human gene pool. If that is true, then the question is where did the gene come from and why does it end up almost exclusively a trait found in regions previously occupied by Neanderthals--namely Europe? Given that this gene has 100,000 years of history behind it, if the mutation had occurred among the earliest group to leave Africa, it should have gone in all directions and today be found among the Chinese and other groups. And the fact that it isn't found would tend to rule out such a scenario in which the red-headed gene was brought to Europe from Africa.

[Terumo: The same reason why certain anthropological groups have no P-450 in their body. If we base Evolution on the who has XYZ and who doesn't, that leaves great gaps in a common ancestor theory.

The dangers of taking observation too far is trying to take limited direct knowledge and apply it to everything down the chain. This guy is assuming Neandertals (that he uses the old spelling says something too in itself) had to be the only species that could've brought the red hair to Europe. The guy didn't factor disease process into the equation. Now which disease of malnutrition will turn the hair red? And why? If that disease process is common due to the lack of vitamins and proteins what can it do over time for small groups? He didn't factor that into the equation, but continues on a belief that justifies it, instead of doing that very elemental process scientists know well -- using the scientific METHOD of elimination.]


So where did it come from? One hundred thousand years ago, the only people in Europe were the Neanderthals and most observers of this gene have drawn the conclusion that the red haired gene is from the Neanderthals. Indeed, Harding, the leading researcher has never said as much IN HER RESEARCH PAPERS, but she has said so in interviews:

[Terumo: the "AH!" affect. He had an idea and because he shaped his idea to fit his belief, it's now some truth with ZERO HARD EVIDENCE.]

""So does that mean it is possible that Scottish redheads are directly descended from the Neanderthals? ""It seems to be the logical conclusion to what I am saying,"" said Harding. ""But I don't know if people are going to like me for saying that."""" http://www.aulis.com/news12.htm

Given the strong bias against the concept of Neanderthal heritage among the Out of Africa advocates, I have no doubt people won't like her saying that.


[Terumo: I'll agree with that, especially when disputing the group think of Evolutionists (and Creationists).]

Lest people think that I am demeaning others for being related to the Neanderthals, I suspect I am also and if I am, I am proud of it because they were quite fascinating people. I suspect I have the red-headed allele of the MCR 1 gene, as I have a now graying red moustache, my grandmother was a red head and my brother also had a red beard, and I am decesnded from Scots on both sides of the family (10% of Scots are red-haired).

[Terumo: Well I have red hair in my tree too, but to date no offspring are redheads -- blondes but no red heads. It's a recessive gene, and that it is could mean it's not a genetic trait carried over by the Neandertals -- brown hair/eyes have (dominant traits). Which could mean the "red head gene" was one adopted more recently -- like with extended malnutrition (which must've been rampant in prehistoric times -- hard evidence, considering how malnutrition was epidemic until the mid 20th century with the best technology and medicine. Protein deficiency of that nature over time can do some weird things to population sub-groups).

Here is the age of the melanocortin gene:

?Both African and non-African data suggest that the time to the most recent common ancestor is ~1 million years and that the age of the global 314 variant is 650,00 years. On this time scale, ages for the Eurasian-distributed Val60Leu, Val92Met, and Arg163Gln variants are 250,000-100,000 years; the ages for African silent variants?Leu106Leu, Cys273Cys, and Phe300Phe?are 100,000-40,000 years. For the European red hair-associated Arg151cys and Arg160Trp variants, we estimate an age of ~80,000 years; for Asp294His, and Ser316Ser, we estimate an age of <= 30,000 years. ? (Harding et al, 2000, p. 1357 )

There is also a widespread population 800,000 years ago and there was much gene flow across the old world. Harding et al write:

"The most recent common ancestor of the ß-globin gene tree is a sequence found only in Africa and estimated to have arisen ~800,000 years ago. There is no evidence for an exponential expansion out of a bottlenecked founding population, and an effective population size of ~10,000 has been maintained. Modest differences in levels of ß-globin diversity between Africa and Asia are better explained by greater African effective population size than by greater time depth. There may have been a reduction of Asian effective population size in recent evolutionary history. Characteristically Asian ancestry is estimated to be older than 200,000 years, suggesting that the ancestral hominid population at this time was widely dispersed across Africa and Asia. Patterns of ß-globin diversity suggest extensive worldwide late Pleistocene gene flow and are not easily reconciled with a unidirectional migration out of Africa 100,000 years ago and total replacement of archaic populations in Asia." (Harding et al, 1997, p. 772)

[Terumo: and they don't factor in disease factors and it's effects on sub-populations over time. Like a person would gain callouses working with their hands, our ancestors would've had a "red haired" callous that could've eventually be passed onto the gene pool over time. Considering the diet of the populations is varied, the areas with less protein sources could've been red heads originally not out of genetic mutation, but because of disease. If this continues on for generations, their bodies could've adapted to the limited protein source that it reprogrammed their very DNA (what is DNA after all)?]

When one tries to calculate how long it would take, at current rates of mutation, for the genetic variability observed around the world to have arisen, we find that it is much longer than many apologists and secular Out of Africa advocates would allow. Harding et al write:

"The expected TMRCA [time most recent common ancestor-grm] and also the ages of the mutations were estimated for each population as well as for the world data set. Estimating the TMRCA of the world data set gave a value of 750,000 years with a 95% confidence interval of 400,000-1,300,000, encompassing all of the TMRCA values from individual populations." (Harding et al, 1997, p. 778)

[Terumo: how in the world can limited data sets equal an "95% confidence interval of 400,000-1,300,000" years? That's like taking water and assuming that it'll weigh the same as ice, water and vapor based on measuring only ice weight. Our technology is rather limited in dating fines very accurately to assume such dates are factual. We can only assume, and to assume it's not a "95% confidence interval".]

Oh, well, time is short. But folks can get the drift.
 

dgevert

Senior member
Dec 6, 2004
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Well, I'm not going to spend much time here debating an article I'm not familiar with in the first place, nor is it central to my argument anyway. It would seem I discounted another possibility: that Terumo would ignore further evidence posted, choosing to attempt to lead us on a red herring...

I do want to highlight a few gems though:

[Terumo: How did he conclude this fact? How can he assume that it'll take 1,000,000 years for a Melanocortion-1 to mutate? Carbon or potassium-argon dating? So a reading in a pit in Timbuktu is now a fact.....hmmmmmm]

Oh, maybe it was from the genetic study of the melanocortin 1 receptor, and the methods of coming to this conclusion are detailed in one of the references cited at the end of the article?

Or maybe that possibility is too difficult for someone like Terumo to comprehend?

[Terumo: the "AH!" affect. He had an idea and because he shaped his idea to fit his belief, it's now some truth with ZERO HARD EVIDENCE.]

The irony here is that Terumo's spent so much time (and killed so many of our brain cells) trying to defend creationists who have been doing the same exact thing for the last 150 years (more if you consider other sciences they have rejected on the basis of their faith.)

[Terumo: and they don't factor in disease factors and it's effects on sub-populations over time. Like a person would gain callouses working with their hands, our ancestors would've had a "red haired" callous that could've eventually be passed onto the gene pool over time. Considering the diet of the populations is varied, the areas with less protein sources could've been red heads originally not out of genetic mutation, but because of disease. If this continues on for generations, their bodies could've adapted to the limited protein source that it reprogrammed their very DNA (what is DNA after all)?]

Ironic, this, from someone who had just said "How did he conclude this fact? How can he assume that..." What's the reasoning for this lame ad hoc explanation, one so poorly written that I had to read it several times just to be sure Terumo wasn't stupid enough to seriously advocate lamarckian evolution?

So...more of the same from Terumo. Who's surprised? Not I. *yawn*
 

Terumo

Banned
Jan 23, 2005
575
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Originally posted by: dgevert
Maybe the resident "paleontology expert" (cough, sorry, seems I have something in my throat) would like to explain this:

Paleontology? Do you see me getting all hot and heavy in classification and dating??

How about paleoanthropology?? You know femurs, tibias, metacarpals of ancient hominids?


Reloaded your Talkorigins gun?

Well, here I can too .45 Lock and Load!

Maybe if the resident "expert" can choke down her hatred of all things scientific and grasp,

Never claimed to be an "expert" but I do claim to know more about this subject than what copy and paste artists can do.

And my three interests in my sig are all HARD sciences -- Optical Astronomy | biological anthropology | medicine, so you can drop that idea I "hate" science. You're REALLY reaching when you make THAT statement! lololol

And I grasp more than you're willing to understand.

for a moment, that just because something is hosted on talkorigins, doesn't mean it isn't scientific or valid, she would like to explain to us which of these fossils is "human."

What I claim about talkorigins is bias, extreme bias.

If another way was found to find our origins, the maintainers of Talkorigins would try to discredit it because they :cough: know :cough: Evolution is the only answer to the questions of our origin.

Maybe then, the resident "expert" would like to explain to us why we see such similiarity here.

Not sorry to crash your chest beating party, but it was a challenge, and I love challenges.

And why it corresponds so well with genetic evidence such as the example I gave in the opening post. And why it also corresponds with the pattern of difference we see in the pseudogene for Vitamin C synthesis. And why a geneology based on endogeneous retroviruses agree so well with the geneologies based on the fossil record, genetics, and the Vitamin C synthesis pseudogene.

My, we must be reading off the same page.

Or what about Vitamin A were's there's 2 sources we can process that vitamin (retinol and beta-carotene)? Cat's can't process beta-carotene does that mean they're not a close relative then??

Or maybe, more likely, methinks, the resident "expert" will simply respond with another use of the logical fallacy known as the argument from ignorance,

As fast as you can type it I can answer it, and human nutrition is something I'm fascinated in. All without running to Talkorigins for answers.

Simply: no one knows the unknown, and to speculate over it is a tail chasing...
- Terumo[/quote]

Yes, dg, YES!!!!!!

or her claim that two chromosomes merging must, necessarily result in genetic disorders, based on her limited knowledge and ignorance,

Ah, that's where reading comprehension is important, dg. You lack it, but let me clarify your short attention span: I never claimed the above. You either purposely blindsighted or you're twisting words around to trump up your view. Never mentioned anything about chromosones merging -- I did refer to them as added chains though (like what occurs in Down's Syndrome, and other defects like the triple Y syndrome).

Or commit yet another logical fallacy, poisoning the well yet again because I dared to link to something on the dreaded Talk.Origins servers?

Actually, you're doing that well with not having the capacity to READ correctly and assuming things.

Will she continue to fail to realize that TalkOrigins itself is not a singular entity, but comprised of articles written by a variety of experts on the topic? Will she continue to ignore the fact that TalkOrigins articles are almost always well-researched with full sources and bibliographies?

And you fail to acknowledge who maintains it. If all science had to go through wholesale censorship what good is science then?

Will she continue to ignore the fact that they often even LINK to (alleged) refutations of their articles? (When has Answers in Genesis or "Dr." Kent Hovind ever done this?)

....Yawn.....

Oh, I've corrected Ph.D's in real life before and was even commended for it, dg. And if that certain Ph.D will connect the dots of what I mentioned a decade ago, he'll probably would answer another mystery too. Even sent him photos, and field work years later showed the same thing, meaning the remote source came from the original source -- as no man made artifacts exist there.

Dg, you have no idea what I know.

Will she continue to ignore the fact that only one side in this debate consistently has valid credentials?

I learned long ago valid credentials mean little, as man is human and makes mistakes.

What drivel will she come up with next, folks?

Answering your own, which is blank in content -- other than showing reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.
 

Terumo

Banned
Jan 23, 2005
575
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Originally posted by: dgevert
Well, I'm not going to spend much time here debating an article I'm not familiar with in the first place, nor is it central to my argument anyway.

See, what I mean about the lack of reading comprehension?

It very much does with your question, if you can actually comprehend what you read!!

It would seem I discounted another possibility: that Terumo would ignore further evidence posted, choosing to attempt to lead us on a red herring...

That's what you're doing. You offer nothing but links. Links that can be refuted. Which means what? NOT EVIDENCE!

Oh, maybe it was from the genetic study of the melanocortin 1 receptor, and the methods of coming to this conclusion are detailed in one of the references cited at the end of the article?

That's where your problem begins and ends, dg -- you take a paper as gospel. You refuse to acknowledge papers change as new data comes in.

Or maybe that possibility is too difficult for someone like Terumo to comprehend?

Keep trying, dg, keep trying (I know what you're doing, and it ain't working).

The irony here is that Terumo's spent so much time (and killed so many of our brain cells) trying to defend creationists who have been doing the same exact thing for the last 150 years (more if you consider other sciences they have rejected on the basis of their faith.)

You back nothing up, dg. I debated that piece on merit with no references of seeking "answers" from talkorigins. Now ask yourself how I could do it. When you really find an answer, you'll realize you're really out of your element.

Ironic, this, from someone who had just said "How did he conclude this fact? How can he assume that..." What's the reasoning for this lame ad hoc explanation, one so poorly written that I had to read it several times just to be sure Terumo wasn't stupid enough to seriously advocate lamarckian evolution?

Reading comprehension is definitately not your best trait. Here again you make another capital mistake (you know all about red herrings, by doing that song and dance -- got you).

I wasn't asking "how it could be" for me to need an answer, I'm asking YOU HOW IT COULD BE so you can answer it.

So...more of the same from Terumo. Who's surprised? Not I. *yawn*

Yes, your replies are boring -- no content.
 

dgevert

Senior member
Dec 6, 2004
362
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Originally posted by: Terumo
Paleontology? Do you see me getting all hot and heavy in classification and dating??

How about paleoanthropology?? You know femurs, tibias, metacarpals of ancient hominids? [/quote]

But apparently not their skulls, seeing as how you ignore evidence I posted.

Reloaded your Talkorigins gun?

Well, here I can too .45 Lock and Load!

Just as I expected. More poisoning the well.

Never claimed to be an "expert" but I do claim to know more about this subject than what copy and paste artists can do.

Yes, since if it's on the internet, it's wrong. Just why are you so desperate to avoid discussing the actual topic?

And my three interests in my sig are all HARD sciences -- Optical Astronomy | biological anthropology | medicine, so you can drop that idea I "hate" science. You're REALLY reaching when you make THAT statement! lololol

So why are you so afraid of addressing actual evidence?

And I grasp more than you're willing to understand.

So, why are you so afraid of addressing actual evidence?

What I claim about talkorigins is bias, extreme bias.

Then it shouldn't be too hard to prove them wrong. So, why are you so afraid of addressing actual evidence?

If another way was found to find our origins, the maintainers of Talkorigins would try to discredit it because they :cough: know :cough: Evolution is the only answer to the questions of our origin.

Interesting claim. Don't expect I could get you to prove it, seeing as how no other way HAS been found to answer the questions of our origin? (Religious claims don't count, not being based on actual evidence.)

Not sorry to crash your chest beating party, but it was a challenge, and I love challenges.

If you do, then why have you spent at least a dozen posts avoiding this one?

My, we must be reading off the same page.

Or what about Vitamin A were's there's 2 sources we can process that vitamin (retinol and beta-carotene)? Cat's can't process beta-carotene does that mean they're not a close relative then??

That's the funny thing about evolution. As species evolve and branch off from each other, they develop differences from each other as well. That's sorta the whole point.

As fast as you can type it I can answer it, and human nutrition is something I'm fascinated in. All without running to Talkorigins for answers.

So, why are you so afraid of addressing actual evidence?

Simply: no one knows the unknown, and to speculate over it is a tail chasing...

So, why are you so afraid of addressing actual evidence?

Ah, that's where reading comprehension is important, dg. You lack it, but let me clarify your short attention span: I never claimed the above. You either purposely blindsighted or you're twisting words around to trump up your view. Never mentioned anything about chromosones merging -- I did refer to them as added chains though (like what occurs in Down's Syndrome, and other defects like the triple Y syndrome).

Yeah, it's not like that's something that would imply that's what you meant, now, is it?

Actually, you're doing that well with not having the capacity to READ correctly and assuming things.

So, why are you so afraid of addressing actual evidence?

And you fail to acknowledge who maintains it. If all science had to go through wholesale censorship what good is science then?

Where's the censorship? Would it be in their feedback area where they post opposing views? Would it be in their articles where they link to attempted refutations?

....Yawn.....

It's telling that this is all you have to say.

Oh, I've corrected Ph.D's in real life before and was even commended for it, dg. And if that certain Ph.D will connect the dots of what I mentioned a decade ago, he'll probably would answer another mystery too. Even sent him photos, and field work years later showed the same thing, meaning the remote source came from the original source -- as no man made artifacts exist there.

And I would believe this why? If you're so good at 'correcting the experts,' then why are you so afraid of addressing actual evidence?

Dg, you have no idea what I know.

Actually, I do have an idea. A good idea. It's just not a very flattering one of you.

I learned long ago valid credentials mean little, as man is human and makes mistakes.

No one's said otherwise. But you're an idiot if you're going to trust the side whose debators have degrees in fields not relevant to biology, or worse, degrees from diploma mills. When one side is full of people who have spent most of their adult lives studying a subject, conducting research on it, and writing papers on it, from a variety of backgrounds, faiths, and lack of faiths, and the other side is full of people whose devotion to their religion has led them to reject scientific knowledge from fields they know nothing about, doesn't that make you go "hmm?"

It would if you were honest.

But that much hasn't been proven...

Answering your own, which is blank in content -- other than showing reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.

Yes, absolutely. My posts are devoid of content; it's not like I've posted scientific knowledge here.

Will anyone step forward and defend Terumo's posts? Anyone at all?
 

Terumo

Banned
Jan 23, 2005
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The point is there's nothing or nothing much TOO address. The answers you seek no one knows the CORRECT answer too. It's all up to speculation.
 

dgevert

Senior member
Dec 6, 2004
362
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Originally posted by: Terumo
See, what I mean about the lack of reading comprehension?

It very much does with your question, if you can actually comprehend what you read!!

See, that's interesting, because I missed the discussion of the merging of two chromosomes in human species in that article. Even did a search for the word "chromosome" in the article just to make sure.

It's not central to my argument because it being right or wrong does not directly prove me right or wrong.

That's what you're doing. You offer nothing but links. Links that can be refuted. Which means what? NOT EVIDENCE!

Guess someone totally failed to grasp the concept of internet debating.

That's where your problem begins and ends, dg -- you take a paper as gospel. You refuse to acknowledge papers change as new data comes in.

Yeah, it's so obvious I take one paper referenced in one article as gospel, I even used such dogmatic and certain phrases like "Oh, maybe it was from the genetic study of the melanocortin 1 receptor..."

You back nothing up, dg. I debated that piece on merit with no references of seeking "answers" from talkorigins. Now ask yourself how I could do it. When you really find an answer, you'll realize you're really out of your element.

More poisoning the well. Here's a hint, numbskull: just because something is hosted on TalkOrigin's web server, doesn't mean it is WRONG.

Ironically, you ignore the fact that TalkOrigins wasn't even brought up in the chromosome challenge post.

Reading comprehension is definitately not your best trait. Here again you make another capital mistake (you know all about red herrings, by doing that song and dance -- got you).

I wasn't asking "how it could be" for me to need an answer, I'm asking YOU HOW IT COULD BE so you can answer it.

Frankly, I don't know. Don't particularly care to discuss the issue with you.

Yes, your replies are boring -- no content.

Yup, you're the one who has been posting pictures of actual evidence; meanwhile all I've come up with is posting pictures of a gun and made veiled threats.

Oh wait.

So, why are you so afraid of addressing actual evidence?
 

dgevert

Senior member
Dec 6, 2004
362
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0
Originally posted by: Terumo
The point is there's nothing or nothing much TOO address. The answers you seek no one knows the CORRECT answer too. It's all up to speculation.

Genetics, microbiology, paleontology, and biochemistry all agree on the same basic premise, and it's all just "speculation."

If I'm ever accused of murder (and was guilty of it), I'd like you to be on my jury.
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
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Originally posted by: Terumo
I learned long ago valid credentials mean little, as man is human and makes mistake

Then why do you spend so much time touting yours?

Dg, you have no idea what I know.

Good point. However, that fact points to a failure on your part to communicate what you know, largely because your posts focus on insulting others and going off on tangents instead of answering people's questions.
 

Terumo

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Jan 23, 2005
575
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Serve up the info on the cranium listed as "M" in that Talkorigins photo. If you want some "meat" to be answered, I'll show you the classification problem.
 

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
91
Terumo: and they don't factor in disease factors and it's effects on sub-populations over time. Like a person would gain callouses working with their hands, our ancestors would've had a "red haired" callous that could've eventually be passed onto the gene pool over time. Considering the diet of the populations is varied, the areas with less protein sources could've been red heads originally not out of genetic mutation, but because of disease. If this continues on for generations, their bodies could've adapted to the limited protein source that it reprogrammed their very DNA (what is DNA after all)?]

Oh, this is just excellent. Please explain more about your theory of DNA being reprogrammed, it's extremely amusing to read. Tell us what the "red headed callous" in our DNA would look like.
 

Terumo

Banned
Jan 23, 2005
575
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Originally posted by: cquark
Then why do you spend so much time touting yours?

I don't.

Really, I don't. All I'm doing is refuting the game being played.

Good point. However, that fact points to a failure on your part to communicate what you know, largely because your posts focus on insulting others and going off on tangents instead of answering people's questions.

Goes both ways, and that you refuse to admit so, shows your own -- what again? -- bias.
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
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Originally posted by: Terumo
Now since introductions have been made, let's get down to some real studying and learning -- not copying and pasting links.

This is an excellent argument about the genetic issues of our ancestory, but makes some errors. I'm wondering if any of you Talkorigin types can pick them out (now you're suppose to be all learnt in Evolution, so you're suppose to pick out the logical fallacies contained).

But here read this much of the argument (highlighted and rebuttal parts are mine for emphasis).....

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/hegene.htm

That's not a peer-reviewed article or even a good review article from a scientific journal.

DMD appears to be a vanity press concerned with creationism issues.
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/dmd.htm

Let's try an actual scientific article next time.
 

dgevert

Senior member
Dec 6, 2004
362
0
0
You don't "get it." Let me put it down into an elementary level: you have to type the bones accurately, or the results are false. Remember the Piltdown Man? How many scientists accepted it as human again? How long did it take before the hoax was finally known? Do you realize how many more disarticulated remains are misclassified?

LMAO at your stunning display of ignorance.

As you may or may not know, the Piltdown Man "discovery" was made in 1912. As more discoveries were made, Piltdown Man was increasingly viewed as an anomaly - it just didn't fit with all of the other evidence. Finally, it was proven to be a hoax in 1953. In the years immediately before it was proved to be a hoax, it was largely ignored. Finally, technology improved, allowing it to be disproven as a hoax. (And let's not forget what actually proved Piltdown Man to BE a hoax in the first place...)
 

Terumo

Banned
Jan 23, 2005
575
0
0
Originally posted by: Gibsons
Oh, this is just excellent. Please explain more about your theory of DNA being reprogrammed, it's extremely amusing to read. Tell us what the "red headed callous" in our DNA would look like.

Imagine what Galileo faced when The Church confront his thesis!

Meanwhile, I'm waiting on the source information on that cranium.....

(Not here in 20 minutes I'm going to bed).


 

dgevert

Senior member
Dec 6, 2004
362
0
0
Originally posted by: Terumo
Serve up the info on the cranium listed as "M" in that Talkorigins photo. If you want some "meat" to be answered, I'll show you the classification problem.

M is Cro-Magnon.

I'm just at the edge of my seat waiting for Little Miss Expert ("remember, credentials don't mean a damn thing, but remember, I'm a scientific expert") to explain what professional experts missed.
 

Terumo

Banned
Jan 23, 2005
575
0
0
Originally posted by: dgevert
You don't "get it." Let me put it down into an elementary level: you have to type the bones accurately, or the results are false. Remember the Piltdown Man? How many scientists accepted it as human again? How long did it take before the hoax was finally known? Do you realize how many more disarticulated remains are misclassified?

LMAO at your stunning display of ignorance.

As you may or may not know, the Piltdown Man "discovery" was made in 1912. As more discoveries were made, Piltdown Man was increasingly viewed as an anomaly - it just didn't fit with all of the other evidence. Finally, it was proven to be a hoax in 1953. In the years immediately before it was proved to be a hoax, it was largely ignored. Finally, technology improved, allowing it to be disproven as a hoax. (And let's not forget what actually proved Piltdown Man to BE a hoax in the first place...)

Thank you for helping, dg, you're showing that I'm right with each serving.

BTW, why in 1953 was it discovered to be a hoax? (When I ask you dg, I already have the answer, I'm trying to get YOU to get the answer). Clue: it starts with a "t".
 

dgevert

Senior member
Dec 6, 2004
362
0
0
Originally posted by: Terumo
Originally posted by: Gibsons
Oh, this is just excellent. Please explain more about your theory of DNA being reprogrammed, it's extremely amusing to read. Tell us what the "red headed callous" in our DNA would look like.

Imagine what Galileo faced when The Church confront his thesis!

Meanwhile, I'm waiting on the source information on that cranium.....

(Not here in 20 minutes I'm going to bed).

Interesting that you choose to reference what Galileo went through, seeing as how evolutionary science actually *is* very analagous to Galileo's discoveries, what with the religious folk fighting soooooo hard to defeat science with faith.
 

Terumo

Banned
Jan 23, 2005
575
0
0
Originally posted by: dgevert
Originally posted by: Terumo
Serve up the info on the cranium listed as "M" in that Talkorigins photo. If you want some "meat" to be answered, I'll show you the classification problem.

M is Cro-Magnon.

I'm just at the edge of my seat waiting for Little Miss Expert ("remember, credentials don't mean a damn thing, but remember, I'm a scientific expert") to explain what professional experts missed.

No, source information. Dig site and what else was found in the excavation. It's not symmentrical, indicating it's either suffered trauma or a genetic defect.

Dig.

 

dgevert

Senior member
Dec 6, 2004
362
0
0
Originally posted by: Terumo
Thank you for helping, dg, you're showing that I'm right with each serving.

BTW, why in 1953 was it discovered to be a hoax? (When I ask you dg, I already have the answer, I'm trying to get YOU to get the answer). Clue: it starts with a "t".

Trolling? *cough*
 

dgevert

Senior member
Dec 6, 2004
362
0
0
Originally posted by: Terumo
No, source information. Dig site and what else was found in the excavation. It's not symmentrical, indicating it's either suffered trauma or a genetic defect.

Dig.

Actually, Cro-Magnon 1 is in remarkably good condition for a 30,000 year old fossil.
 
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