City: Notice of Rental Inspection

[sdifox]

That's the spirit, bend over to the official butt-fucking of your rights. Just like the ol' story of a cop pulls you over - If you refuse a search, refuse to blow, etc... you MUST have something to hide and are GUILTY.

People like you are the downfall of this country for being so stupid about something so important (your rights).

Last I checked operating a business is not a right.

 

[JEDI]

Read the links I posted. These cities get you by requiring a license to have rental units, and then requiring the inspections as part of the license process - except it's not, they call it "random". I would be more OK with this if it was while the units were empty. But with tenants in them? No. They can get a warrant.

Admittedly, this is completely my fault. I didn't do my due diligence. I didn't know I needed to, I had no idea such a thing was even possible in the United States.

It's really disturbing that a little City Council can enact unconstitutional ordinances without any oversight. Yikes.

if u didn't file for a license, this would never have happened.
and claim ignorance if you're caught?

 

[Eli]

Err this is for the tenant's protection. To ensure the rental property is to code and safe.

I'm fully aware of that, but I am standing up for my tenants rights as well as mine here. Did you miss the part where I said they don't want to be inspected either? This is a blantant violation of the 4th amendment. As blatant as it gets. As the links I posted mention, this is specifically covered in the exact wording of our Constitution!

I just bought the property a few months ago. What did I pay all that money for real home inspections for?

There are a thousand ways they could do this. How about they call my tenants? Or send them questionnaires? Or even a fucking knock and talk?

But an interior inspection? NO! These are my tenants homes! I wouldn't have wanted this when I was a renter either.

Holy shit, this type of shit is going to make me turn red.

 

[JEDI]

I'm fully aware of that, but I am standing up for my tenants rights as well as mine here. Did you miss the part where I said they don't want to be inspected either? This is a blantant violation of the 4th amendment. As blatant as it gets. As the links I posted mention, this is specifically covered in the exact wording of our Constitution!

I just bought the property a few months ago. What did I pay all that money for real home inspections for?

There are a thousand ways they could do this. How about they call my tenants? Or send them questionnaires? Or even a fucking knock and talk?

But an interior inspection? NO! These are my tenants homes! I wouldn't have wanted this when I was a renter either.

Holy shit, this type of shit is going to make me turn red.

um.. im betting u gave them permission to inspect your apartments when you signed the rental license application.
its in the fine print somewhere.

basically, you waived your rights on this matter

 

[Eli]

um.. im betting u gave them permission to inspect your apartments when you signed the rental license application.
its in the fine print somewhere.

basically, you waived your rights on this matter

I haven't applied/filled it out. I didn't know it existed until I got this stuff in the mail.

It's like $40/unit too. That's kinda a lot....

 

[Eli]

Honestly, I didn't even really pay attention to what city the place was in. The cities just bleed together here, it's a metropolitan area. It's literally in the city of Gresham by like a block.....

Can I annex myself back to Portland pls? kthx lol

 

[JEDI]

I haven't applied/filled it out. I didn't know it existed until I got this stuff in the mail.

It's like $40/unit too. That's kinda a lot....

wait.. then how did they know it's a rental then??
oh.. utilities and property owner name not the same?

so they inspect b4 you can get a license?

ok, so now you have a choice:
-don't be a landlord and dont rent out the property
or
-submit to your overlord's demands to get the rental license

and how many units in your apt?

 

[sdifox]

I'm fully aware of that, but I am standing up for my tenants rights as well as mine here. Did you miss the part where I said they don't want to be inspected either? This is a blantant violation of the 4th amendment. As blatant as it gets. As the links I posted mention, this is specifically covered in the exact wording of our Constitution!

I just bought the property a few months ago. What did I pay all that money for real home inspections for?

There are a thousand ways they could do this. How about they call my tenants? Or send them questionnaires? Or even a fucking knock and talk?

But an interior inspection? NO! These are my tenants homes! I wouldn't have wanted this when I was a renter either.

Holy shit, this type of shit is going to make me turn red.

Your home inspection was for the bank's protection. And this happens when you run a business above board.

 

[Eli]

Your home inspection was for the bank's protection. And this happens when you run a business above board.

The courts are ruling it unconstitutional all over the place, as they should be.

This will be fought and struck down. I'm REALLY interested to talk to my attorney about it next week, I'd bet there is pending litigation. I'd love to join it.

Fucking hell. I've never needed a lawyer in my entire life, now I've got him on speed dial.

 

[sdifox]

The courts are ruling it unconstitutional all over the place, as they should be.

This will be fought and struck down. I'm REALLY interested to talk to my attorney about it next week, I'd bet there is pending litigation. I'd love to join it.

Fucking hell. I've never needed a lawyer in my entire life, now I've got him on speed dial.

Just be happy you are not being shut down since right now, you are operating a business without proper licence.

 

[Eli]

wait.. then how did they know it's a rental then??
oh.. utilities and property owner name not the same?

so they inspect b4 you can get a license?

ok, so now you have a choice:
-don't be a landlord and dont rent out the property
or
-submit to your overlord's demands to get the rental license

and how many units in your apt?

Yeah, it's gotta be the utilities thing.

Just two. Two separate single family units on a single lot. They don't inspect before you can get the license, but they do mention that you'll be subject to random inspections.

Yeah, I figure I'm going to have to comply, or whatever my attorney says to do. But I'm going to drop this place like a bad habit. It's just fundamentally wrong. I'll vote with my business, I guess.

I'm not trying to be a bad landlord here, I have nothing to hide.. I will take awesome care of my tenants, and the places are in great shape, they were just remodeled before I bought them. I just don't agree with this in the slightest. Like I said, didn't even know it was possible. There are better ways to deal with this problem that don't erode some of our most basic rights.

 

[shimpster]

let thim inspect it.
just slip the inspector a hundred and keep rokkin.
typical of most cities, and the inspectorz r easily bought

 

[Eli]

Just be happy you are not being shut down since right now, you are operating a business without proper licence.

I rented until just the last couple of years. I know VERY, VERY well what a shitty landlord is like. That's why I couldn't ever possibly be one.

I know ignorance isn't an excuse, but I didn't know about the license. It's just not the same anyway. I have a business license(In Gresham!), I know my business is subject to random inspections(Which has nothing to do with Gresham specifically). I have no problem with that.

But peoples homes are specifically protected in our Constitution. You cannot enter a place of residence unless invited, or you have probable cause. Period. That's why they have all of that trespass nonsense in their paper, and ask nicely for your compliance.

From the tenant's point of view, it's none of the cities business how they are living. It's barely even my business. You can try and flip that around all you like, but if there are genuine problems with the units, there are resources available for tenants. They should absolutely make them as strong and robust as possible.

You don't need a license to have rentals in Portland. This Gresham ordinance was enacted in 2008, the same year I moved to New Mexico for a few years. That's why I hadn't heard about it, I guess.

This is all completely bizarre to me, I feel like I've gone to sleep and woken up in some foreign country. Seriously.

I've been reading some of the horror stories. Some of the Inspection Points are incredibly vague, and you end up being FORCED to hire outside contracts to fix what a non-expert "inspector" believes is a problem.

It sounds very much like all of the "suggested" work from the bank's Home Inspections. These people are in business to find problems for their buddies in sewage, electrical, plumbing, etc.

Nope, not doing it. Gresham can have it.

 

[Humpy]

Do you have a copy of the inspection checklist you could post?

I'm curious what is on it other than smoke detectors and combustion venting.

nvm, see it on the website.

 

[Eli]

Do you have a copy of the inspection checklist you could post?

I'm curious what is on it other than smoke detectors and combustion venting.

It more or less is, I guess. Hell, I just had a new water heater installed in one of the units(I chose a top of the line 12 year model), and I had to get a permit for that. Why do they need to check it again? It's been like 3 weeks! Why do all of these other checks and balances even exist? May as well get rid of them, because random inspections.

The interior stuff is basically that type of stuff. I'm not concerned about violations there, but you have to enter the house to "inspect". I am concerned about that.

Just.. what could possibly go wrong when you have people LOOKING for problems? I'm good at finding problems myself. AND fixing them. Have got no problem hiring a contractor when I'm in over my head, but no thanks. (I didn't install the water heater).

Interior:
http://greshamoregon.gov/WorkArea/linkit.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&ItemID=9804&libID=9824

Exterior:
http://greshamoregon.gov/WorkArea/linkit.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&ItemID=21352&libID=21376

 

[destrekor]

Listen guys, I'm all for responsible landlords.. But.. No... No, no, no no no no. This isn't the right way to do it. It would be VERY easy to bolster tenant laws. Rather than a "Mandatory Inspection Division", how about a very robust hotline/complaint/review division? I'm all for all that kind of stuff, but entering your home? Did any of you read this?

http://ij.org/action-post/does-the-...s-a-primer-on-warrantless-rental-inspections/

http://www.thetimesherald.com/story...rental-inspections-unconstitutional/74544618/

This is not acceptable. This goes against what it means to live in the United States of America. People cannot just enter your home and randomly search your shit just because you are a renter. Are you fucking kidding me? No. Just no. I am saying this as a renter(for 34 years) and now a landlord. If I got a letter like this in the mail as a tenant, I would feel exactly the same way. Your landlord snooping around is bad enough, but the city? How about you get a warrant eh?

I feel like I just accidentally bought a property in some insane HOA and didn't know it. D:

I totally get where you are coming from, and I agree in a limited sense. Specifically, I absolutely agree that this kind of activity would not belong at the Federal and State government level, unless some very specific programs needed overview: think Section 8.

But at a city/municipality/township level? Guess what, if State law says it is legal, they can add whatever policies they wish. Don't like it? Don't vote for those people and don't live there. Easy enough.

That is one thing that almost everyone here is arguing: it shouldn't be acceptable for government to do it. But so long as it isn't truly encroaching Constitutional freedoms (a program like this is certainly not, however disagreeable it is), local governments are free to go pretty damn far. As long as these kinds of things don't creep up the government food chain and find their way into every single jurisdiction, I think we're just fine.

 

[Charmonium]

I haven't read the thread but I had an inspection a few years ago before they reappraised my property. I've never heard of an inspection for habitability or whatever but that makes sense since you don't want hoarders and pot growers bringing down property values.

 

[Humpy]

Sheesh, some of the plumbing and electrical requirements are pretty broad and could be hugely expensive to meet if you got an assholish inspector.

 

[Eli]

That is one thing that almost everyone here is arguing: it shouldn't be acceptable for government to do it. But so long as it isn't truly encroaching Constitutional freedoms (a program like this is certainly not, however disagreeable it is),

The courts disagree with you. I only wish I had the resources to fight this, I most certainly would.

From what I've read, this ordinance originates from a quite disliked member of the Gresham city council. But obviously it still passed. Not sure exactly how all that works. He's also tried to block medical and recreational marijuana from the city, to only partial success.

But yes, I will NEVER vote for someone who supports such things. Or do business with a city who does, I guess. Damn. Really frustrating actually.

Like I said, very curious to find out where litigation stands on it. Could be in the final processes of being struck down for all we know. Or maybe nobody is doing anything about it. That would be pretty sad.

 

[destrekor]

The courts are ruling it unconstitutional all over the place, as they should be.

This will be fought and struck down. I'm REALLY interested to talk to my attorney about it next week, I'd bet there is pending litigation. I'd love to join it.

Fucking hell. I've never needed a lawyer in my entire life, now I've got him on speed dial.

I did some more digging on it - it's a very very fine line, it seems.

A Federal court did rule against an Ohio town for a similar program - but, it's not specifically a ruling that invalidates all rental inspections.

There seems to be some leeway, because, let's face it, while at first blush it may appear to be a violation of the Fourth Amendment, do note that said Amendment states "unreasonable" as a major qualification.

There are other towns in Ohio that have less strict wording, and the very same town (Portsmouth) that was found to be in violation of the Fourth re-wrote their policy; here, it seems that if both the tenant and landlord deny permission to enter, then the inspectors are either out cold or they have to get a court order/warrant. If tenant denies, they'll try to work with the landlord to get approval (and that would legally usurp the tenant AFAIK)... if that fails, then they are left with the courts.

It seems these ARE at least being taken up by State and Federal courts, so we may win out after all. But it is going to be a very tough effort to get Judges to agree that these are, by definition, unreasonable. I didn't read the letters in your OP... did they give you an option to deny the inspectors access?

It is a very sticky subject, as usually what is seen cannot be considered evidence or reported, but then again, if they see evidence of a meth lab, they usually are within their rights to report that. That alone is a sticky subject in of itself, because in many ways, that makes plenty of sense: a meth lab --unlike growing pot, for instance-- is a serious threat to the property, which is entirely the point of the rental inspections (not drugs or crime, just structural integrity and healthy living conditions). And not only is it an issue with the property, if you have multiple tenants, all of them are at risk for health concerns, AND the properties are usually ordered to be vacated and are demolished due to the chemicals used. But it probably shouldn't be used as a means to prosecute anybody, but I don't think that is the case: I suspect if an inspection turns up a meth lab, that report then sets into motion a search warrant and investigation. But it was only initially reported due to being a hazard to both health and property. Any other evidence should be easily thrown out in court if it came to be.

 

[Carson Dyle]

It's really disturbing that a little City Council can enact unconstitutional ordinances without any oversight.

Again with the armchair law scholarship.

You can be sure that somewhere (or many somewheres) someone has gotten a bug up their butt about this and it's been run up through the courts. And upheld as constitutional.



.

 

[Eli]

Again with the armchair law scholarship.

You can be sure that somewhere (or many somewheres) someone has gotten a bug up their butt about this and it's been run up through the courts. And upheld as constitutional.



.

And you would be wrong.

“[T]he Court finds that the Portsmouth [Rental Dwelling Code] violates the Fourth Amendment insofar as it authorizes warrantless administrative inspections. It is undisputed that the [Rental Dwelling Code] affords no warrant procedure or other mechanism for precompliance review... the owners and/or tenants of rental properties in Portsmouth are thus faced with the choice of consenting to the warrantless inspection or facing criminal charges, a result the Supreme Court has expressly disavowed under the Fourth Amendment.”

But I agree, it's all just conjecture until I talk to someone knowledgeable with the situation here. That will happen next week, you can be sure.

 

[Eli]

It's not like I want my tenants having meth labs, or even huge marijuana grows(the law allows 3 plants per household).

Enforcing all of that is my job, not the cities. If all it takes is both the landlord and tenant saying no, then they will have fun pounding sand.

 

[MtnMan]

Locally I had to get a CO (certificate of occupancy) before I could rent my other house. How do they enforce that? The tenant can't get the water turned on unless there is a CO on file.

However 13 years later, same tenant, no re-inspections.

 

[MrSquished]

Your home inspection was for the bank's protection. And this happens when you run a business above board.

The home inspection is for the buyer's protection. The banks, at least in NJ, do not require a home inspection. In fact you can waive your right to a home inspection as a way to strengthen your offer.

It's the appraisal that the banks require. That and home/flood insurance.