Civilization V: Gods and Kings

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
Steam version unlocks on 19 June. Any takers? I loathed Civilization V last year, but the new features in this expansion pique my interest. Slightly.

Wonder if they've addressed the poor game pace, poor performance, and allowed more than 1 unit in a tile?

http://store.steampowered.com/app/16870/

Key Features:
Expanded Epic Game: The core game experience has been greatly expanded with the addition of new technologies (like Combined Arms), 27 new units (like the new 1-hex ranged unit Machine Gunner), 13 new buildings (like the Bomb Shelter), and 9 new Wonders (see below). Additionally, there are even more new units and buildings included in the three new Scenarios for modders to use.

New Civilizations: The expansion will deliver 9 new civilizations, such as Carthage, Netherlands, the Celts, and the Maya (it is 2012, after all), along with their unique traits, units and buildings. The expansion also includes 9 new leaders including William I, Prince of Orange, Boudicca and Pacal the Great.

Religion: A righteous people will seek out Faith to found a Pantheon of the Gods. As your Faith becomes stronger, you can cultivate Great Prophets who build on these simple beliefs to create a religion that you can customize and enhance as desired. Are you tolerant of other religions or is this the one true faith? Are you focused on Gold, Arts or Military? Beliefs can even unlock custom buildings that only people of your religion can construct. Great prophets, missionaries and inquisitors help you spread your beliefs to other lands and gain the alliances of City States, and like-minded civilizations.

Enhanced Diplomacy and Espionage: Establish embassies at foreign courts for closer ties (or clandestine operations). As the religions of the world start settling in, and the world moves into the Renaissance, you unlock your first spy (with more to come). Send them out to establish surveillance of foreign cities, steal advanced technologies from your strongest or wisest competitors, or interfere with city-state alliances. All of your actions can have a diplomatic impact if discovered, so always tread carefully.

City-States: Two new city-state types have been added (Mercantile and Religious) to bring all new advantages to the table. The city-state quest system has received a complete overhaul to decrease the importance of gold and add a whole range of new quests that further the narrative of the game, as well as make the diplomatic victory a more varied option. Ally with Marrakech to get access to their unique luxury resources! Vatican City and Jerusalem are holy cities that play key roles in the religious struggle.

World Domination: The fight for world domination is now more dynamic than ever before. The Gods and Kings expansion features a reworked combat system and AI that puts more emphasis on a balanced army composition. The new system allows your lines to stand longer than they could before, so you, as a player, can make smarter tactical decisions without worrying about a single unlucky roll of the dice.

Naval Combat: Your navy is now split into two different ship types, melee and ranged. This means that no coastal city should be considered safe, and can now fall to a surprise naval attack. Additionally, all embarked units now have Defensive Embarkation, and can stack with a naval unit for extra protection. Add to this the new Great Admiral, and the high seas have become a much more dangerous place.

New Wonders: There will be 9 new Wonders with all new effects including Neuschwanstein, the Great Mosque of Djenne, the Terracotta Army, the Great Firewall, and the Hubble Space Telescope.

Three new Scenarios:
Medieval: Grow your medieval kingdom into one of the great nations of Renaissance Europe, fending off outside invasions from Mongols and Ottoman Turks and fighting the religious wars of the Crusades and Reformation!

Fall of Rome: Play as either Eastern Rome or Western Rome trying to fend off the barbarians OR as one of the barbarians themselves.

Empires of the Smoky Skies: Build flying airships and huge tractor-like tanks from the unique tech tree of this Victorian science-fiction scenario, and use them to spread your empire across the pre-industrial world.
 

arredondo

Senior member
Sep 17, 2004
829
37
91
I've never played a Civ game, and haven't played one of these world control strategy games since Lords of Conquest on my Commodore 64.

With that said, I bought Civ V and DLC in a Steam super-sale late last year, and have not yet fired it up because of backlog clearing as well as a wait to get the latest mega patch before I learn the system.

Gods and Kings seems to be the right time to finally get 'er done. I've gone over a few tutorial vids and read the instructions for the core game, and when my pre-order of G&K is available I'll play my first game semi-confident I know enough to get by for a first timer.

Wonder if they've addressed the poor game pace, poor performance, and allowed more than 1 unit in a tile?

From what I've read about the expansion, the pace has changed due to the fact that cities are a lot more fortified, forcing aggressors to use heavier units if defenses are up.

Naval battles will last longer, and they re-arranged the progression of some of the perks you earn so that you can make use of some tech upgrades earlier in an era that was possible before.

I haven't read anything that addresses the performance of the game.

I do know they won't go back to stacking units in one tile for battles. The developer wants unit movement, positioning, the use of generals, and monitoring of their individual health levels to be more important than powering up one tile with many units to be a cumulative, destructive force.
 
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Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
I do know they won't go back to stacking units in one tile for battles. The developer wants unit movement, positioning, the use of generals, and monitoring of their individual health levels to be more important than powering up one tile with many units to be a cumulative, destructive force.

They need to. That, coupled with the poor pacing, made trying to move any troops more than a couple tiles extremely tedious.

Maybe a mod fixed it?
 

MiataNC

Platinum Member
Dec 5, 2007
2,215
1
81
They need to. That, coupled with the poor pacing, made trying to move any troops more than a couple tiles extremely tedious.

Maybe a mod fixed it?

The issue is that the tiles are too big and cover too much area. If you are going to make it 1 unit per tile, you need to have a hell of a lot more tiles for tactical and strategic movement.
 

Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
81
I'm def buying this. I have 100 hours put into Civ V and hopefully this will buy me another 30-50.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,764
2,279
126
will wait and see .. Civ V was childish. but then again, civ 3 & 4 were rubbish imho. at least V worked well, if too easy. i'v still to find a civ game that works well, but doesn't suck in the "wins by cheating only" department.
 

Sulaco

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2003
3,825
44
91
Fix the bullshit AI, then we'll talk.

Honestly, nothing else matters.
 

dizzyorange

Junior Member
May 13, 2012
23
0
0
In an the interview the lead developer for the expansion made it a point to say something like "I worked side by side with the [original lead developer] on vanilla CivV and all the decisions were made by both of us. I don't feel like the expansion is really about undoing the mechanics that [original lead developer] made."

In other words, he totally disagreed with the [original lead developer] and is now undoing many of the mechanics. Hopefully...
 

DAGTA

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,172
1
0
In an the interview the lead developer for the expansion made it a point to say something like "I worked side by side with the [original lead developer] on vanilla CivV and all the decisions were made by both of us. I don't feel like the expansion is really about undoing the mechanics that [original lead developer] made."

In other words, he totally disagreed with the [original lead developer] and is now undoing many of the mechanics. Hopefully...

The quote and your comment are direct contractions
 

DAGTA

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,172
1
0
I'll pass. Civ V was horrible. If another expansion was made for Civ IV, I'd be all over that.
 

arredondo

Senior member
Sep 17, 2004
829
37
91
An interview with the lead designer has this to say about the A.I.:

Yeah, we’re not only adding new things, but rebalancing and looking at each of the AI subsystems. We’re actually in the part of the project now where we’re in that final balance and polishing phase, and we’ve gone and categorized all the different AI systems and areas where we can make improvements. We’ve already made a lot of improvements, and right now we’re trying to figure out the key items that are really going to take the AI to another level.

...and this about community input towards improvements:

We’ve made sure some of the really active members of the community are part of our beta test group. So, we put out two builds to our beta test group every week of the project, just to keep plenty of eyes on things and so balance and multiplayer gets a lot of attention.


In another interview he discusses City-State changes:

Exactly, we wanted to make sure that gold was deemphasized as a way to influence city states and we added a new quest system that we put into place. It builds on the interactions, which you had with city states for clearing up Barbarians and things like that, in the original game.

We took that quest system and made it much richer and deeper. City states can have up to three quests. They can have quests with more than one power at the time. There is a wide variety of types of quests.

And late in the game, the city states are tied with the rest of the espionage system as well. Your agents, as well stealing technologies and getting intriguing from others major powers, can go into those minor powers the city states and work with them as the way as the soviets and the US might have worked with a third world country during that cold war era. And all the sudden, you're either reading the elections in the city states or maybe you are even trying to throw a government out of power entirely with a coup.

It can be dangerous for your spies to do that, but it is a great way to gain influence quickly. You can see these late game UN elections to try to determine victory. It is going to be very crazy with coups and spying and the quest activity going on at the same time.


...and the combat changes:
Well, we should talk about what we have done with the combat system. The combat system has been changed regarding land combat, how all the units are introduced in the technology tree, and how naval combat works. So let's just go these, quickly:

  • We introduced a whole new upgrade path for ranged units. It does not end at the crossbow anymore, but you can now go up through the gatling gun to the machine gun.

  • We changed the hit point scale for all combat units. So there is now more fidelity over that system. It is now on a hundred point scale instead of a ten point scale. Which allows us to better fine tune the pacing of combat which was a little bit too quick.

  • With the naval units, naval invasions just took too much space on the map. So we allowed embarked land units to stack with naval units. Which compacts navy formation.

  • We also split naval units into two types: Naval melee and naval ranged units.
So there is more going on with combat. There are more strategic decisions about whom you put into the front line and whether or not you are actually trying to use your naval melee units which can attack naval units like units on a grassland tile just on the shore like a range unit. But the great thing is they can attack coastal cities and either pillage them for gold or capture them.
 
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StinkyPinky

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2002
6,886
1,103
126
I've already pre-ordered it. Hopefully this does to Civ 5, what BTS did to Civ 4.
 

Wardawg1001

Senior member
Sep 4, 2008
653
1
81
I've already pre-ordered it. Hopefully this does to Civ 5, what BTS did to Civ 4.

I do as well, but I don't think it will be there yet. I do hope they continue to improve and believe that it can eventually be on the same level of awesome as Civ 4. The changes they are talking about are not nearly enough though, unless they are drastically understating how much work has gone in to improving various areas. I like that they are improving the tech tree, adding more civs, buildings, units, wonders, adding complexity to the city-state and espionage systems, etc. They seem to be hitting on all the problem areas and that is a good sign, but Civ 5 needs some really major overhauls, particularly in AI and combat mechanics, if it ever expects to be comparable to Civ 4.
 

turn_pike

Senior member
Mar 4, 2012
316
0
71
The problem with Civ4 is that at higher difficulty (BTS --> Prince and above) you need to constantly wage war to expand or you -will- get behind. The AI get so many bonus, its not even funny. It makes the game kinda formulaic to be honest, you have to trade tech and wage war or you die. I now prefer playing Paradox's grand strategy games.

Some basic strategies that I used to utilize might be useful to you :
- Build your city in the first 2 turns (Usually the tile you start with is good enough).
- Build a worker unless your city will grow real soon (in which case build a warrior / barrack until your city grew and then switch to worker)
- Explore with your warrior. Scout good locations for your second city. IF you happen to find another Civ, see if you can attack and steal their worker because at higher difficulty they start with one worker. It would be a -huge- boost to your economy. Try to stay in forest / hill to improve your defense against those pesky barbarians / animals.
- Improve the resources, prioritize food because we want the city to grow ASAP. Another way is to research Bronze Working and chop wood with worker to create Settler.
- After food, prioritize having a strategic resource that increases your combat power : Bronze, Ivory or Horses. You need at least one of these resources or you will not be competitive.
- Build your second city (protect it with an archer / axeman)
- If there is a civilization nearby, try to conquer it. You need to constantly do this or you will get behind.
- Tech up to Alphabet real fast and TRADE TECH before AI can do it. They research at like twice your speed so you have to trade.
- Whenever you get a new tech that gives you a good / unique combat unit then its usually time to prepare for war.
- Be friendly to one or two relatively strong Civilization. You cant afford to be ostracized, they will gang up on you.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
The problem with Civ4 is that at higher difficulty (BTS --> Prince and above) you need to constantly wage war to expand or you -will- get behind. The AI get so many bonus, its not even funny. It makes the game kinda formulaic to be honest, you have to trade tech and wage war or you die. I now prefer playing Paradox's grand strategy games.

That may be true on Deity only, because the bonuses from Emperor->Deity are 2x as much as the bonuses from monarch->emperor combined. But I can definitely win on Emperor without having to go to war - depending on map conditions. It's all a matter of diplomacy - keeping yourself neutral while everyone else at war.

The game is only formulaic in the sense that the AI follows rational, predictable rules. Not that what the AI does in any particular game is predictable, but you can be confident that Montezuma will declare war on the nearest neighbor, and that Napoleon will try to backstab you, and Mansa Musa will trade every single tech he has or that you give him to everyone else. This makes the game, you know, a game, and not just a bunch of random shit that you can't predict or control.
 

arredondo

Senior member
Sep 17, 2004
829
37
91
They seem to be hitting on all the problem areas and that is a good sign, but Civ 5 needs some really major overhauls, particularly in AI and combat mechanics, if it ever expects to be comparable to Civ 4.
It has been indicated in several previews that both combat and A.I. will be getting significant upgrades. I quoted a few above.
 

shurato

Platinum Member
Sep 24, 2000
2,398
0
76
Any feedback so far? I've read that the AI hasn't changed too drastically and that the espionage piece just seems tacked on as multiple reviewers have stated it seems like a facebook app that's been slapped on after the fact.
 

Anteaus

Platinum Member
Oct 28, 2010
2,448
4
81
I'm enjoying it so far. I not sure how dramatically they changed the AI, but interaction is much better. With Civ V vanilla I felt that AI could be a bit bipolar, happy one second and completely hating on the you the next. Not only are there more options, they seem to be more reasonable overall. For the first time ever I was able to coexist on friendly terms with two other factions on the same continent. In prior games, as soon as our borders got close it usually meant our relationship diving into some sort of perpetual war. In addition, they def make better use of their combat units.

The spy and religion stuff is pretty cool. Also, I've noticed more variety in textures. The whole game looks better IMO. The new factions are also great.

As for turns, contrary to what the developer said it feels to me like turns take longer than vanilla, especially later in the game. Not a huge difference mind you, but I can tell. I don't have any numbers to back it up and it might just be me. Maybe a patch will help with that in the future. Still, it's vastly better than the last three Total war as far as time goes.

All and all my experience has been very good and I think the expansion focuses well on Civ V strengths and gives us more. If you didn't like Civ V vanilla, I don't think there is anything here to change that, but if your like me and loved it you'll like it all the more.
 
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n7

Elite Member
Jan 4, 2004
21,281
4
81
Been on vacation out of country since just before G&Ks release, which has partially been driving me crazy as i'd love to be playing.
From the forums (civfanatics) it seems like pretty much all the exploitive tricks like hoarding and bulbing GS, and signing tons of RAs, etc have all been addressed, making it much more balanced and tougher somewhat on harder difficulties.

I cannot wait to get playing the new civs, and relearn how to not get roflstomped.
 

WildW

Senior member
Oct 3, 2008
984
20
81
evilpicard.com
I've been playing this, and am pleased.

I was a big Civ 4 BTS player, bought Civ 5 on release day, but gave up on it after about 12 hours played and went back to Civ 4... admittedly there was probably a certain amount of not liking it because it was different to what I knew.

I started playing Civ 5 again a few weeks ago after hearing about this expansion coming, and found it didn't bother me as much as it had before - not sure how much has been tweaked in patches in the last year or so. However, the AI was still bugging me. . . it was just rather random, particularly with nations flicking between friendly and declaring war at the drop of a hat, over and over.

So Gods and Kings. . . it feels like a lot has changed actually, and I'm enjoying the game more. The AI does seem to be a lot less random which has made the whole experience more pleasurable.

The religion mechanics are a bit. . . . well, interesting but ultimately just a way to get a few more perks. So far it seems that there are enough Religion slots available that every big power just builds their own religion and there's very little crossover, conversion, etc. There doesn't seem to be a big advantage in trying to spread your religion to others for diplomatic purposes like creating religious alliances - actually it just tends to upset the other players since everyone has their own pet faith.

The other side to religion is that you gradually build faith points that you can spend on stuff, depending what you chose for your religion. Perhaps I haven't played enough yet to get a full understanding, but some picks seem unbalanced compared to others - e.g. the ability to buy military units with your points is very powerful compared to, say, the ability to buy monasteries with them.

I like most of what they've done with units. You've got more ranged attack units now, but the new later ones (gattling gun, machine gun) make little sense with their only-ever-one-square-range rules. Archers can fire further than guns ever can. Huh.
There are lots of little changes like this - some I like, some I don't. . . but nothing upsetting.

I'm playing Civ 5 and I'm enjoying it, which is more that I did for a long time. I'm enjoying it more with the expansion than I did without it, so that's good too.
 

kyrax12

Platinum Member
May 21, 2010
2,416
2
81
What strategy do you guys usually use?

Do you focus on economy or military mainly?
 
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