Civilization V: Gods and Kings

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Mr Burns

Junior Member
Sep 5, 2008
14
2
66
They are better, but it still takes a long time for me (~1 minute on Emperor, marathon, largest possible fractal map, max city states (40+ I think, max civilizations, ~22 or so, but most have been wiped out, so 4-5 left). I guess if you add up 1 minute for 600 turns you wait quite a long time (10 hours just waiting). Better than 30 hours though.

This is around year 1860, no idea which turn. Core I7 930@stock or I7 930@4GHZ, no difference in the waiting time. Gtx 480 single, sli or 3 way-sli also makes no difference in the waiting times.

I think it used to be 2-3 minutes when the game first came out late in the game with everything maximum (city states, civs, barbs etc).

Late game time between turns seems to be greatly improved. Can anyone else verify?
 

paperfist

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
6,520
280
126
www.the-teh.com
I must say with Gods and Kings I've actually completed a game! I find myself engaged again in the 'just one more turn' excitement, staying up way to late and paying for it in the morning.

The AI seems a lot more worthy now and can mostly put up a fight even at lower difficulty levels. Diplomacy seems improved to what CIV IV was at, still not as robust as Galactic Civ's AI though.

1UPT still sucks. I was trying to bail out Russia from Suleiman's wrath if only because she was trading to me luxuries that no one else would. I didn't want to take him on head on so I was 'shipping' units overseas to her and gifting them. The problem was I ran out of land to place the units on so that I could gift her. It's really short sighted to think a country would have so little land that you couldn't stand an army there to defend it.

Over all though I'm enjoying it.
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
I'm curious to try it but fat chance at paying $30 for it, being ripped off for the original at full price was bad enough. It'd only be worth it to me at < $5.
 

TheNewGuy

Senior member
Feb 16, 2001
326
0
0
I don't find diplomacy to be all that relevant, to be honest...I don't seem to have the same need to make deals with the other civs as I did in IV....

Dave
 

paperfist

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
6,520
280
126
www.the-teh.com
I'm curious to try it but fat chance at paying $30 for it, being ripped off for the original at full price was bad enough. It'd only be worth it to me at < $5.

I hear ya, I did the same thing except I finally came to terms with letting go of another $30. Haven't gotten my full moneys worth yet, but I'm working on it

I don't find diplomacy to be all that relevant, to be honest...I don't seem to have the same need to make deals with the other civs as I did in IV....

Dave

Last game I had like 13 or more cities up and running and the unhappiness factor was ripping me up. The only way for me to stem the tide of (cheaply) pleb chaos was to trade for luxuries. I'm not a big fan of doing the same with strategic resources especially since they are limited.
 
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sigurros81

Platinum Member
Nov 30, 2010
2,371
0
0
So with Gods and Kings, can you actually win a game playing for any victory besides war? I really hate how the AI gets hostile on you if you happen to share a border with them. WTF.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
146
106
www.neftastic.com
Does G&K make the AI somewhat LESS predictable and actually a bit more reasonable?

Examples:
1. If you're peacefully minding your own business but doing fairly well for yourself, even if your neighbor civ is "Friendly" he'll decide to stab you in the back regardless of what sort of trade agreements and whatnot you have in place.

2. During the course of a war (that the AI declared), you repeatedly drive back onslaughts of ridiculous amounts of attacking units, finally the 'lockout' to negotiate peace is up and it's obvious that the AI can't crack your defenses so he offers peace yet pretty much wants everything PLUS the kitchen sink from you to do it?

3. Trade negotiations with the AI are ridiculously lopsided.
- Dear AI, I see you have 80 bajillion incense. Would you like to trade?
- Dear Player, Sure, I would like ALL of your silver, gold, dyes, furs, 30 gold per turn, 3 of your cities, open borders, and a night with your wife. Sincerely, AI

4. Just because the AI is 50 points ahead of you in score... "I don't think such an agreement would be in our best interests at this time." Oh, so you DON'T want a joint declaration of friendship and a defensive pact that would bring me to your aid given that that other AI civ run by that backstabber Napoleon is about to slaughter your ass? Have fun with that.

5. I'm knocking on your capital's doorstep bro. I'm offering you a peace treaty for the fair price of this one city of mine that you previously captured 20 turns ago, but you'd rather be obliterated?

6. My personal favorite: "It has come time for us to lay down our arms." --> Negotiate Peace Treaty --> What would make this work? --> "I don't see any possible way to make this work." Then why the fuck did you ask in the first place?
 
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paperfist

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
6,520
280
126
www.the-teh.com
Does G&K make the AI somewhat LESS predictable and actually a bit more reasonable?

Examples:
1. If you're peacefully minding your own business but doing fairly well for yourself, even if your neighbor civ is "Friendly" he'll decide to stab you in the back regardless of what sort of trade agreements and whatnot you have in place.

2. During the course of a war (that the AI declared), you repeatedly drive back onslaughts of ridiculous amounts of attacking units, finally the 'lockout' to negotiate peace is up and it's obvious that the AI can't crack your defenses so he offers peace yet pretty much wants everything PLUS the kitchen sink from you to do it?

3. Trade negotiations with the AI are ridiculously lopsided.
- Dear AI, I see you have 80 bajillion incense. Would you like to trade?
- Dear Player, Sure, I would like ALL of your silver, gold, dyes, furs, 30 gold per turn, 3 of your cities, open borders, and a night with your wife. Sincerely, AI

4. Just because the AI is 50 points ahead of you in score... "I don't think such an agreement would be in our best interests at this time." Oh, so you DON'T want a joint declaration of friendship and a defensive pact that would bring me to your aid given that that other AI civ run by that backstabber Napoleon is about to slaughter your ass? Have fun with that.

5. I'm knocking on your capital's doorstep bro. I'm offering you a peace treaty for the fair price of this one city of mine that you previously captured 20 turns ago, but you'd rather be obliterated?

6. My personal favorite: "It has come time for us to lay down our arms." --> Negotiate Peace Treaty --> What would make this work? --> "I don't see any possible way to make this work." Then why the fuck did you ask in the first place?

I've only played 2 full G&K games so far...

1. I had a neighbor go from fun loving trade partner and friends to PMS in a turn. My military was #1 in the game so she didn't actually attack. Eventually we got back to being trade partners and buddy buddy.

2. Can't answer that.

3. If the AI has extra luxuries I haven't had any lopsided trading issues. Strategic resources on the other hand they rarely want to trade unless it's lopsided. Even when their demands are off the chart you are able to counter propose for something a little more reasonable, but not always.

4. That seems to be tied to your military rank. But I've had one game where I was #1 in everything and my neighbor didn't want to take the final step of having a defensive pack for any reason. I'm not sure if that was because of our religious differences or not. I've had another game where I was 3rd in score and bottom in military and a neighbor was bottom in score but near the top in military and she signed all those agreements with me even though I was in war.

5. Can't comment. I've been playing on normal so the 2 games I've played have taken a while.

6. LOL haven't run into that yet. All in all the AI is still wonky in negotiations, I think that's largely for underlying reasons they don't show you in-game. It's no worse than Civ IV which is wonky too. I don't think they'll ever be able to fix this.
 

Martimus

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2007
4,488
153
106
Does G&K make the AI somewhat LESS predictable and actually a bit more reasonable?

Examples:
1. If you're peacefully minding your own business but doing fairly well for yourself, even if your neighbor civ is "Friendly" he'll decide to stab you in the back regardless of what sort of trade agreements and whatnot you have in place.

2. During the course of a war (that the AI declared), you repeatedly drive back onslaughts of ridiculous amounts of attacking units, finally the 'lockout' to negotiate peace is up and it's obvious that the AI can't crack your defenses so he offers peace yet pretty much wants everything PLUS the kitchen sink from you to do it?

3. Trade negotiations with the AI are ridiculously lopsided.
- Dear AI, I see you have 80 bajillion incense. Would you like to trade?
- Dear Player, Sure, I would like ALL of your silver, gold, dyes, furs, 30 gold per turn, 3 of your cities, open borders, and a night with your wife. Sincerely, AI

4. Just because the AI is 50 points ahead of you in score... "I don't think such an agreement would be in our best interests at this time." Oh, so you DON'T want a joint declaration of friendship and a defensive pact that would bring me to your aid given that that other AI civ run by that backstabber Napoleon is about to slaughter your ass? Have fun with that.

5. I'm knocking on your capital's doorstep bro. I'm offering you a peace treaty for the fair price of this one city of mine that you previously captured 20 turns ago, but you'd rather be obliterated?

6. My personal favorite: "It has come time for us to lay down our arms." --> Negotiate Peace Treaty --> What would make this work? --> "I don't see any possible way to make this work." Then why the fuck did you ask in the first place?

These AI idiosynchrocies are exactly why I always stop playing Civ games and go back to GalCiv. The AI there actually makes sense.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,674
146
106
www.neftastic.com
Oh and one more to add, it's a good one too:

7. Research Agreement? Sure... on top of the gold it costs, I'd also like 3 of your luxury goods + 5 gold per turn.

Cause there's no vested benefit at all in the research agreement anyway.

Another thing I'm irritated with is how horribly skewed the difficulty levels scale up. It really is amazing how quickly the AI can generate gold, units and more importantly wonders at prince and especially king level.
 

Wardawg1001

Senior member
Sep 4, 2008
653
1
81
Does G&K make the AI somewhat LESS predictable and actually a bit more reasonable?

Examples:
1. If you're peacefully minding your own business but doing fairly well for yourself, even if your neighbor civ is "Friendly" he'll decide to stab you in the back regardless of what sort of trade agreements and whatnot you have in place.

2. During the course of a war (that the AI declared), you repeatedly drive back onslaughts of ridiculous amounts of attacking units, finally the 'lockout' to negotiate peace is up and it's obvious that the AI can't crack your defenses so he offers peace yet pretty much wants everything PLUS the kitchen sink from you to do it?

3. Trade negotiations with the AI are ridiculously lopsided.
- Dear AI, I see you have 80 bajillion incense. Would you like to trade?
- Dear Player, Sure, I would like ALL of your silver, gold, dyes, furs, 30 gold per turn, 3 of your cities, open borders, and a night with your wife. Sincerely, AI

4. Just because the AI is 50 points ahead of you in score... "I don't think such an agreement would be in our best interests at this time." Oh, so you DON'T want a joint declaration of friendship and a defensive pact that would bring me to your aid given that that other AI civ run by that backstabber Napoleon is about to slaughter your ass? Have fun with that.

5. I'm knocking on your capital's doorstep bro. I'm offering you a peace treaty for the fair price of this one city of mine that you previously captured 20 turns ago, but you'd rather be obliterated?

6. My personal favorite: "It has come time for us to lay down our arms." --> Negotiate Peace Treaty --> What would make this work? --> "I don't see any possible way to make this work." Then why the fuck did you ask in the first place?

Theres an explanation for most of these seemingly irrational behaviors, though not always a good one. MOST of the below is from my own personal observations, I'm not the type of guy to go look at the actual code and find the answers to these things. If you really want to know the mechanics of AI behavior, hit up the forums at civfanatics.com, there are many people there who actually dig through the code of the game and find the exact reasons behind various 'irrational' AI behaviors.

1. This is pretty rare in my experience, friendly relations will keep MOST civ's from declaring war on you, but not all. Probably the reason this seems so common is that one of the most likely things to cause another civ to declare war on you is sharing borders with them. All you can really do is keep good relations with them and have a more powerful military than them. I find that having an aggressive civ as a neighbor can actually be a good way to keep them in check, as they will waste tons of resources trying to attack you over and over through the course of the game and its not that hard to fend them off, it takes a lot less effort and resources to defend than attack. I actually like that other civs will declare war and break agreements with you. Maintaining trade agreements or begging for 1 piece of gold to stave off an enemy from attacking you was such a cheesy tactic in Civ4.

2. Peace terms are largely determined by the amount of units you lost versus the amount he lost, as well as your current power relative to his. Cities conquered also seems to play a large role. If a civ declares war, loses most of his offensive force while attacking, didn't capture a city, but managed to kill a large number of your units as well, you likely won't get very favorable peace terms, especially if he has a large amount of defensive units sitting around in his cities keeping his overall power score high. If you want favorable peace terms then you need to kill a lot more units than you lose during the war. I find that the easiest way to quickly end an unwanted war is to fend off the initial attack wave, then take their closest city. If you manage to quickly get a favorable kill:death ratio AND take a city, even civ's that are more powerful than you will sometimes outright offer you peace plus a lot of extra goodies. Usually this is only possible with a military tech lead, but an even military tech level and good tactics can work as well.

Unfortunately when a far away civ randomly declares war on you, there is usually little you can do but continue killing off their units until they get bored. Fortunately the AI is not very good at long range warfare so while it may be annoying, it rarely poses any real danger. You can also bribe their neighbors or other civs between your land and theirs to declare war on them. This will lessen the amount of units that they send at you, and I find that civs that are in multiple wars are much more open to fair peace treaties, but that might just be my imagination.

3. There is actually a lot more thought behind AI trading behavior than it may seem at first. Unlike previous installments, the AI will no longer do stupid things like accept iron for a luxury resource when they are in the modern age. They also seem to actually take in to account their need for additional luxury or strategic resources when determining the value of a trade. If they have plenty of happiness, they aren't going to give you a 1-to-1 trade, because your luxury resource has little value for them. Relationship status also factors in to trades, if a civ dislikes you, it doesn't matter how much they want or need what you are offering, you aren't going to get a fair deal. Different civs have different personalities and thresholds for these things as well. One civ may be willing to make a 1:1 luxury resource trade at neutral while another won't do it unless they are pleased with you, while yet another won't do it unless they are friendly with you. AI trading behavior only seems so bizarre because its very different from Civ3 and Civ4 where you could basically fund your entire empire off trade-raping other civs, and because we don't get to explicitly see the logic behind WHY a civ will only accept a lopsided trade. You can infer a lot though if you pay enough attention.

4. I don't even understand how you came to this conclusion. I have been offered declarations of friendship and defensive pacts by civs ahead of me in score many times. I won't pretend to understand all the mechanics behind what makes a civ offer or accept these declarations, but I highly doubt points have much to do with it.

5. Again I rarely encounter this situation, but when this does happen it likely has a lot to do with what I mentioned in point 1, specifically the number of units you lost versus what they lost. Taking cities without a military tech lead often means you lose many more units than they do, so even though you captured several of their cities and have a military power advantage, the AI may actually think its winning the war. Silly? Sure. But there is only so much you can do with AI programming. There are probably other factors at play here that I'm simply not aware of.

6. I've never seen this. I can only assume that they are willing to make a peace settlement but only for a price, and you don't have what they want. I'd venture to guess that the AI is programmed to prompt for a peace settlement on certain conditions and it doesn't check whether you have enough to give them to end the war. Probably a bug, since I also know that the AI will come to you with peace terms laid out in advance sometimes. Who really cares though, this doesn't affect game play at all.



Bottom line is that the AI can't possibly come anywhere near the intelligence or reasoning powers of an actual human being, its all based on numbers and formulas, and the AI can't be programmed to handle every possible scenario, so it is inevitable that you come across situations that don't make sense. While some things my seem weird to us, there is always a rationale behind it, and most of the time these irrational situations are due to the AI having to react to a situation it wasn't really programmed to deal with.
 

Wardawg1001

Senior member
Sep 4, 2008
653
1
81
Oh and one more to add, it's a good one too:

7. Research Agreement? Sure... on top of the gold it costs, I'd also like 3 of your luxury goods + 5 gold per turn.

Cause there's no vested benefit at all in the research agreement anyway.

Another thing I'm irritated with is how horribly skewed the difficulty levels scale up. It really is amazing how quickly the AI can generate gold, units and more importantly wonders at prince and especially king level.

I'm almost certain that the unbalanced research agreement terms are usually because of your relationship status with that civ and their general behavior towards 'fair deals'. I wouldn't be surprised if the AI also factors in relative benefit of the research agreement for you versus them. If you are far ahead of them in the tech tree, even though they DO get a tech at the end of the research agreement just like you, your tech is going to be far more valuable. This is pure speculation on my part, but it would make far more sense if this were the case than your (apparently) desired scenario in which anyone is willing to sign a research agreement with you at any time regardless of any outside factors.
 

Wardawg1001

Senior member
Sep 4, 2008
653
1
81
So with Gods and Kings, can you actually win a game playing for any victory besides war? I really hate how the AI gets hostile on you if you happen to share a border with them. WTF.

This was the same in Civ4. Sharing borders, especially early in the game or on higher difficulties, was pretty much a guarantee that you were going to get in to an early war. This is largely because there are only so many positive attitude modifiers available and many of them are not available until the mid or late stages of the game. Sharing borders is a negative attitude modifier, and one that often comes in to effect before you have a chance to enact the positive attitude modifiers (fair trades, shared religions, using their favored government, etc).

On higher difficulties this becomes even more prevalent because it is literally impossible to keep up with the AI economic and military growth in the early stages of the game, so you are already target #1 for everyone.

War was never the only way to victory in Civ5, before or after Gods and Kings. Due to imbalances in the power of certain units, and poor AI combat mechanics, it is probably the easiest though. Even in Civ4 though people figured out how to beat Deity regularly on all victory conditions, and I challenge you to show me that Civ4 Deity AI is less aggressive than Civ5 AI.
 
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