Class Action Lawsuit Targets Subaru Oil Consumption

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Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,573
5,096
136
No idea. My old Honda had 200k on the OEM cat and the engine used about a quart every 5k. No issues.

That's a far cry from a quart in 1000 miles. You're experiencing pretty normal consumption for that many miles. About a quart per oil change.

A qt. per 1k miles cannot be good for the emissions system....it can cause the cat and the O2 sensor(s) to "wear out" prematurely.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
Drive back, dealer denied, told me that I should start engine for a while and then stop engine and check immediately. After 1,200 miles go back, I was told another story on how to check engine oil. I should stop engine and wait for 5 minutes to check, the engine does not burn oil again.

This is exactly why I started doing my own oil changes, no lube guy actually knows how check oil and always overfills it. You have to give the oil time to drain back to the pan. Waiting 5 minutes is even in the Forester's manual. Overfilling will eventually blow out seals, etc.

I've had 3 Subarus, but have experience with 6 different dealers, and only one was worth a crap. When my HGs needed replaced I drove my car 250 miles to take it to that dealer instead of the bozos here. If there is another dealer around, I would try to take the car there.

I'd also start checking your oil every 500 miles and documenting the level. It is much harder for them to give you the run around if you have documentation. You can also go the annoying route, if you call Subaru of America and the Dealer twice a day for a few weeks, they'll probably do something for you just to make you go away.
 

gerhardub

Member
Dec 27, 2007
33
1
66
To add to this thread (I was suprised that AnandTech has a Garage Forum):

So, I've got a 2013 Subaru Legacy with the 2.5i engine listed in the law suit.

It's burning oil at a rate of at least 1.5 quarts ever 6000 miles. The dealership last changed it, so I don't know how much more they could have overfilled it, but it wasn't underfilled.

The Legacy has 20,000 miles on it...

I've ALSO got a 2013 Subaru Outback with the H6 3.6l engine, and it's burning about 1 QT of oil every 4300 miles.

The Outback has 55,000 miles on it.

I've had BOTH cars have the engine oil light turn on.

Neither car burns enough oil for Subaru to replace the rings on the specific cylinders that are bad.

Anyone who thinks you should need to check your oil every time you put gas in the car is mentally deranged. Also, anyone who thinks it normal for a car sold as a daily driver (under factory warranty) to burn a QT of oil within the 7000 mile manufacturer specified drain interval, is also got mental issues.

My previous cars were a 2006 Honda Civic EX and a 2006 Honda Accord EX-L v6, neither car burned oil, and one had well over 170,000 miles on it and the other over 100,000 miles on it when we gave them to family members.

This is really not cool. People do not purchase these cars to have to get hosed. At some point, the oil consumption will get worse, and then the owner is left to have to pay for some very expensive engine work.
 

gerhardub

Member
Dec 27, 2007
33
1
66
This is exactly why I started doing my own oil changes, no lube guy actually knows how check oil and always overfills it. You have to give the oil time to drain back to the pan. Waiting 5 minutes is even in the Forester's manual. Overfilling will eventually blow out seals, etc.

I've had 3 Subarus, but have experience with 6 different dealers, and only one was worth a crap. When my HGs needed replaced I drove my car 250 miles to take it to that dealer instead of the bozos here. If there is another dealer around, I would try to take the car there.

I noted that on the H6 I need to wait at least 15 minutes to check the oil after letting it sit on a level surface.

On the 2.5i it needs to sit as the filter is on top of the engine and the oil needs to slowly return to the sump as it filter drains.
 

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,036
548
126
The oil light should never turn on with the rate of consumption you state. That needs to be checked out.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
The oil light should never turn on with the rate of consumption you state. That needs to be checked out.

According to the owner's manual for the 2.5i model, the low oil level warning light will come on when there are only 3.8 quarts of oil in the system. That's 1.3 quarts low from the 5.1 quart capacity.

If he's doing 6,000 mile oil change intervals and losing 1.5 quarts over those 6,000 miles, then the oil light absolutely should be coming on with the level of consumption he has stated.

That said, a half pint (0.25 quarts) of oil usage every 1,000 miles is not significant. It's definitely not enough to warrant repair.

ZV
 

heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
63
91
According to the owner's manual for the 2.5i model, the low oil level warning light will come on when there are only 3.8 quarts of oil in the system. That's 1.3 quarts low from the 5.2 quart capacity.

If he's doing 6,000 mile oil change intervals and losing 1.5 quarts over those 6,000 miles, then the oil light absolutely should be coming on with the level of consumption he has stated.

That said, a half pint (0.25 quarts) of oil usage every 1,000 miles is not significant. It's definitely not enough to warrant repair.

ZV

I disagree. That's means you're losing too much oil to get 5-7K miles on an oil change. There's no reason for a proper modern engine to do that. Again if I could get away with a clapped out 2004 5.4L 2V Triton then a brand new engine should be beautiful. My 2014 Fiesta with the 1.6L has burned 0 oil between both of it's oil changes (12K miles). The stick was literally a mirror of itself.

My 2012 Civic burned nothing at all (only lived 8 months, but went through 15K miles and 2+ oil changes). Dart burned nothing in 16K (2.0L World Engine)
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Anyone who thinks you should need to check your oil every time you put gas in the car is mentally deranged. Also, anyone who thinks it normal for a car sold as a daily driver (under factory warranty) to burn a QT of oil within the 7000 mile manufacturer specified drain interval, is also got mental issues.

Anyone who thinks this infinitesimal level of oil consumption warrants repair has absolutely no mechanical knowledge whatsoever and is wholly unqualified to state what level of oil consumption is or is not normal.

The level of oil consumption you note is completely normal. The owner's manual for your vehicle states quite clearly that oil consumption below 1 quart per 1,200 miles is considered normal (see page 11-11 in the section titled "Maintenance and Service"). This should be more than sufficient to inform a reasonable person that the oil level will need to be checked between oil changes and that it's quite likely that some amount of oil will need to be added.

ZV
 

heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
63
91
Anyone who thinks this infinitesimal level of oil consumption warrants repair has absolutely no mechanical knowledge whatsoever and is wholly unqualified to state what level of oil consumption is or is not normal.

The level of oil consumption you note is completely normal. The owner's manual for your vehicle states quite clearly that oil consumption below 1 quart per 1,200 miles is considered normal (see page 11-11 in the section titled "Maintenance and Service"). This should be more than sufficient to inform a reasonable person that the oil level will need to be checked between oil changes and that it's quite likely that some amount of oil will need to be added.

ZV



Oil should *never* need to be added between specified change intervals. Period.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
I disagree.

That just means you have insufficient mechanical understanding.

There's no possible way for a level of oil consumption that small to cause a problem unless a moronic owner fails to check the level and lets it dip too low.

Machines, all machines, require monitoring and maintenance. Anyone who thinks they can simply ignore the machine until the maintenance interval is a damn fool.

ZV
 

heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
63
91
That just means you have insufficient mechanical understanding.

There's no possible way for a level of oil consumption that small to cause a problem unless a moronic owner fails to check the level and lets it dip too low.

Machines, all machines, require monitoring and maintenance. Anyone who thinks they can simply ignore the machine until the maintenance interval is a damn fool.

ZV

Every once in awhile products "evolve" into a new level of reliability and usability. Cars aren't clapped out at 70k like back in the 50s. We expect any computer to be able to use websites. We expect that all season tires will get 30k miles. Anyone who thinks a car should need oil between changes is a damn fool and I should add a scumbag on the level of the bankers that scammed America as they defend crappy products with their misunderstanding of modern era machine capabilities.
 

gerhardub

Member
Dec 27, 2007
33
1
66
I have not had a car, period, in out of the last three, that have burned any noticeable amount of oil.

There is NO reason a car 20k miles should be burning that much oil. PERIOD.

In the USAF, if we received anything that burns 30% of it's lubricant before the prescribed maintenance interval - which is a specification in writing - the manufacturer takes it back, or replaces it, when it's still basically new.

Moreover, if it's an aircraft, it's also considered not safe for flight, and the whole model may be grounded.

Also, they pay for us to take the engine out and ship it back to them...

Now, I didn't pay 16 million USD for my car, like an F-16, but I did pay $30k for two cars that aren't supposed to be burning oil during the maintenance interval in any appreciable amount.

If 30% of the oil in a 2.5i burns before 7000 miles (e.g. at 6000 miles), there's an issue.
 
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PhoKingGuy

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2007
4,689
0
76
My 2.0T GTI, N55 335i or now N20 X1 have never needed any oil between services. The Bimmers usually go 10ish k between intervals too.
 

Ferzerp

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,438
107
106
I wouldn't be happy with an engine that needed any oil added between the first and second oil change. I can over look something burning a little bit of oil brand new, but after break in, it really shouldn't.
 
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Jumpem

Lifer
Sep 21, 2000
10,757
3
81
I have never seen a low oil light come on with any of my four Subaru's. I have never added oil between changes either.
 

Wuzup101

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2002
2,334
37
91
I wouldn't be happy with an engine that needed any oil added between the first and second oil change. I can over look something burning a little bit of out brand new, but after break it, it really shouldn't.

Agreed. This should be true of any new (modern) car.
 

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,036
548
126
According to the owner's manual for the 2.5i model, the low oil level warning light will come on when there are only 3.8 quarts of oil in the system. That's 1.3 quarts low from the 5.1 quart capacity.

If he's doing 6,000 mile oil change intervals and losing 1.5 quarts over those 6,000 miles, then the oil light absolutely should be coming on with the level of consumption he has stated.

That said, a half pint (0.25 quarts) of oil usage every 1,000 miles is not significant. It's definitely not enough to warrant repair.

ZV
I guess it pays to read the manual as we have a 2015 Fozzy.

Amazing, they have a low oil level dummy light but no real temperature gauge.
 

gerhardub

Member
Dec 27, 2007
33
1
66
As a side note:

The owners manual indicated that the 3.6R (H6 Engine) will report one level as low when the ignition key it turned one click, and then another level as low if the engine is running and the oil reaches a certain level at that time (which is not the same).

I had to read the a few times... I've never seen that before.
 

Ferzerp

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,438
107
106
That makes perfect sense. When the engine is running, there is less oil in the sump. That doesn't seem odd at all.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,139
5,074
136
Anyone who thinks this infinitesimal level of oil consumption warrants repair has absolutely no mechanical knowledge whatsoever and is wholly unqualified to state what level of oil consumption is or is not normal.

The level of oil consumption you note is completely normal. The owner's manual for your vehicle states quite clearly that oil consumption below 1 quart per 1,200 miles is considered normal (see page 11-11 in the section titled "Maintenance and Service"). This should be more than sufficient to inform a reasonable person that the oil level will need to be checked between oil changes and that it's quite likely that some amount of oil will need to be added.

ZV


That just means you have insufficient mechanical understanding.

There's no possible way for a level of oil consumption that small to cause a problem unless a moronic owner fails to check the level and lets it dip too low.

Machines, all machines, require monitoring and maintenance. Anyone who thinks they can simply ignore the machine until the maintenance interval is a damn fool.

ZV

You can take two identical cars. Same options. Same year. Same assembly line. Same shift that assembled it.
You can have one that burns a negligible amount and one that bumps right up to the minimum allowed by the manufacturer (typically 1qt per 1000 miles).

I think one of the issues is that owners are being conditioned by manufacturers to treat automobiles as appliances that should only be serviced by the service center. So now we have generation of drivers who get shocked that they may have to pop the hood or put any effort into ownership.
It's gone from folks occasionally checking the oil level to "Well the light will tell me to add oil...the red one on the dashboard!!!" to "The dealership does that when the car tells me to bring it in for service. Why would I need to buy oil?"

A 1qt burn every 5K-7K is not even worth a second thought.
A 1qt burn every 3K us annoying but no cause for concern
A 1qt burn every 2K is REAL annoying but I have seen plenty of cars burn that rate for the life of the car.
Once it gets to 1 qt per 1500 and under then its time to contact the dealer.
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
I still don't agree with the whole "oil usage is perfectly fine" notion on brand new engines. Over time, yes you get a little wear, a little slop, and a little oil burn. I get that. But in the past a new engine burning a quart of oil in a few thousand miles, before the next oil change, after the break-in period was considered unacceptable. Oil burning meant oil was leaking into the combustion chamber where it does not belong.

Just because it is "OK" in the manual still shouldn't mean it is really OK. It sounds to me that the manufacturers have just gotten sloppy. Besides, there are a lot of things that manufacturers do that are "OK" to them but we all know is just being lazy/cheap or just a poor design.

I've had 4 vehicles so far. A 93 Ford Taurus 3.0L, a 98 Chevy Camaro 3.8L, and now both a 99 Chevy Camaro 3.8L and 2002 Chevy Trailblazer 4.2L. Even the old Ford only started leaking/burning 1 quart of oil every 3k miles after it got up above 120k miles or so. My 02 Trailblazer has 204k miles on it and uses less than 1 quart every 10k miles. No good reason for a new vehicle to use the same amount of oil as my (then) 14 year old Ford did.
 

gerhardub

Member
Dec 27, 2007
33
1
66
That's really my point:

A new car should not burn oil in significant amount past the break-in period.

I'm flabbergasted that anyone thinks a car under the factory warranty and burning 30% of its oil in-between OEM prescribed change intervals is OK / normal.

The only reason manufacturers specific 1QT / 1000 miles (that was Ford / Honda), or 1QT / 1200 miles is so they don't have to repair an defective car on their dime.

...and this is why dealers / manufacturers get sued.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,485
2,363
136
I really like Outbacks, the styling, the features, and the value, but Subaru has not been on top of their game with engines. EJ25 had head gasket problem that has never been completely fixed. If I recall correctly Subaru redesigned the gasket a bit to make it "better", but it couldn't fix it completely. A buddy of mine with 2011 EJ25 Forester had to have his head gasket replaced under warranty in 2013. IMO that's insane to need head gasket replaced after two years of ownership. And now the new FB25 engines consume too much oil. The problem is fairly wide spread and Subaru forums are full of suggestions on how to properly break in the engine to minimize oil consumption after it's been broken in.

But back on topic, no, new engines with minimal mileage should not be consuming any significant amount of oil at all after the initial break in. It might be acceptable for an older car that is close to its end of expected operating life, but not for a new car. Subaru suggested oil change interval is 7000 miles. What's the point in even having suggested change interval period if you have to top the oil twice in that period? That is insane. As SparkyJJO has said above, oil burning on a new car means the oil is getting into combustion chamber, it should not be doing that on a new car. On an older car, maybe, but not on a new one. The oil burning is only going to get worse as the car ages. If the new car is burning oil at 1Qt or more every 6000 miles I shudder to think how bad it's going to be when the car is at 50-75K and is out of warranty.

I'm nowhere near having to replace my car yet, as it's only 10 years old and still drives just fine. However, every so often I look at the current crop of cars, and at Outback in particular. As I said, I like the car a lot, but the persistent engine issues make me weary. I would hope the Subaru manages to fix them in 3-5 years when it's time for me to buy a new car, but I'm skeptical they will given the fact that they've never managed to fix EJ25.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
I really like Outbacks, the styling, the features, and the value, but Subaru has not been on top of their game with engines. EJ25 had head gasket problem that has never been completely fixed. If I recall correctly Subaru redesigned the gasket a bit to make it "better", but it couldn't fix it completely. A buddy of mine with 2011 EJ25 Forester had to have his head gasket replaced under warranty in 2013. IMO that's insane to need head gasket replaced after two years of ownership. And now the new FB25 engines consume too much oil. The problem is fairly wide spread and Subaru forums are full of suggestions on how to properly break in the engine to minimize oil consumption after it's been broken in.

But back on topic, no, new engines with minimal mileage should not be consuming any significant amount of oil at all after the initial break in. It might be acceptable for an older car that is close to its end of expected operating life, but not for a new car. Subaru suggested oil change interval is 7000 miles. What's the point in even having suggested change interval period if you have to top the oil twice in that period? That is insane. As SparkyJJO has said above, oil burning on a new car means the oil is getting into combustion chamber, it should not be doing that on a new car. On an older car, maybe, but not on a new one. The oil burning is only going to get worse as the car ages. If the new car is burning oil at 1Qt or more every 6000 miles I shudder to think how bad it's going to be when the car is at 50-75K and is out of warranty.

I'm nowhere near having to replace my car yet, as it's only 10 years old and still drives just fine. However, every so often I look at the current crop of cars, and at Outback in particular. As I said, I like the car a lot, but the persistent engine issues make me weary. I would hope the Subaru manages to fix them in 3-5 years when it's time for me to buy a new car, but I'm skeptical they will given the fact that they've never managed to fix EJ25.

What is crap about the EJ25 HG is they had a fix, they just wouldn't use it. At least from everything I read the HG that went into the turbos never had an issue, it was just the naturally aspirated engines. But Subaru would never put the multi layer HG in the naturally aspirated engines.

When I got my HGs replaced on my '06 I asked the dealer to put in the turbo gasket but they wouldn't because Subaru wouldn't allow them to. That was in 2013, though, and they claim the single layer has finally gotten fixed.

Overall, the amount of work I've had to do on my Subarus is so low, that having to replace the HG at 117K wasn't that big of a deal, especially since I was just about to do my timing belt so at least I was able to combine the expenses.

I would be very unhappy burning anywhere near 1qt per 1000 miles of oil though.
 
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