Class Action Lawsuit Targets Subaru Oil Consumption

[fleshconsumed]

You're one of the lucky ones if your HG lasted until 117K. As I said, a friend of mine had to do it on a two year old car, I'm not sure about mileage, but almost certainly less than 30K.

 

[Zorba]

You're one of the lucky ones if your HG lasted until 117K. As I said, a friend of mine had to do it on a two year old car, I'm not sure about mileage, but almost certainly less than 30K.

Yeah, I agree, seems like most died between 60 and 100K. I was also lucky I found it the day after I bought my Forester and made the dealer give me a really good deal on the replacement, since I had 3 days to return the Forester .

 

[LTC8K6]

To add to this thread (I was suprised that AnandTech has a Garage Forum):

So, I've got a 2013 Subaru Legacy with the 2.5i engine listed in the law suit.

It's burning oil at a rate of at least 1.5 quarts ever 6000 miles. The dealership last changed it, so I don't know how much more they could have overfilled it, but it wasn't underfilled.

The Legacy has 20,000 miles on it...

I've ALSO got a 2013 Subaru Outback with the H6 3.6l engine, and it's burning about 1 QT of oil every 4300 miles.

The Outback has 55,000 miles on it.

I've had BOTH cars have the engine oil light turn on.

Neither car burns enough oil for Subaru to replace the rings on the specific cylinders that are bad.

Those oil burn rates are normal. Annoying, but normal.

Hopefully that was an oil level light and not an oil pressure light.

 

[gerhardub]

The level of oil consumption you note is completely normal. The owner's manual for your vehicle states quite clearly that oil consumption below 1 quart per 1,200 miles is considered normal (see page 11-11 in the section titled "Maintenance and Service"). This should be more than sufficient to inform a reasonable person that the oil level will need to be checked between oil changes and that it's quite likely that some amount of oil will need to be added.

ZV

I re-read this, and I think I need to point something out:

If you burn 1 QT of oil every 1201 miles in your 2.5i Subaru (or any Subaru), that means that your would have to add 5.83 QUARTS of oil to keep it topped off by the time you reached the 7000 mile change interval.

So let me get this straight: You think that having to add 5.83 QTs of oil during the normal oil change interval while the car is under the 36k warranty is perfectly normal? ...and that anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron, especially if the low oil warning light were to turn on?

Disclaimer: at 7000 miles you have to have added 5.83 QTs to keep the oil at the top hole on the dipstick. Since you would be changing the oil you need to add 4.83 QTs to keep the oil at the lower hole on the dipstick, assuming you change it at 7000 miles. Of course, you'll have added MORE oil that than car holds in the sump (5.1 QTs) during the 7000 miles of severe oil burning.

 

[Carson Dyle]

I've never had to add a drop of oil between the 5000 mile changes on my 2005 Forester XT turbo.

 

[Jumpem]

I have never added any oil to my Subaru's either. I just take them in at the scheduled maintenance intervals.

 

[Zenmervolt]

So let me get this straight: You think that having to add 5.83 QTs of oil during the normal oil change interval while the car is under the 36k warranty is perfectly normal? ...and that anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron, especially if the low oil warning light were to turn on?

I think the minute level of oil consumption you claim to experience is perfectly normal.

The owner's manual for your vehicle says that you should only worry about oil consumption in excess of 1 quart every 1,200 miles. Any consumption level below that amount is considered, by the engineers who built the engine to be within normal limits.

There is a difference between the level of oil consumption typically seen, and the maximum allowed within normal limits.

"Higher than average" and "within normal limits and not warranting mechanical repair" are not mutually exclusive when describing oil consumption. If a person cannot understand this, that person lacks the fundamental mechanical knowledge to intelligently comment on the matter.

ZV

 

[tweakmonkey]

My brother's 2005-2008 (don't remember the year) Forester with a 2.5L had bearing failures from low oil. He bought it used with 130k miles and it used so much oil between changes that it had caught him by surprise and run too low. His friend offered to fix it for $500-ish, after the dealer quoted him $5000+

 

[heymrdj]

I think the minute level of oil consumption you claim to experience is perfectly normal.

The owner's manual for your vehicle says that you should only worry about oil consumption in excess of 1 quart every 1,200 miles. Any consumption level below that amount is considered, by the engineers who built the engine to be within normal limits.

There is a difference between the level of oil consumption typically seen, and the maximum allowed within normal limits.

"Higher than average" and "within normal limits and not warranting mechanical repair" are not mutually exclusive when describing oil consumption. If a person cannot understand this, that person lacks the fundamental mechanical knowledge to intelligently comment on the matter.

ZV

Come into the IT world, I'll show you what "engineers" put into manuals to cover up shoddy/cheap work.

Anyone that thinks that level of oil burn on a modern non-performance car is acceptable is bat caca retarded.

Here's an example we just had last Thursday with a level 3 Symantec engineer. We've had issues with Backup Exec 2014 SP1 doing GRT backups without relying on the agent. One of the issues was failure at the verification phase. Their official documented suggestion? Disable backup verification because the the backups would let you know if something went wrong during the backup phase.

Like I said, retarded.

 

[gerhardub]

Come into the IT world, I'll show you what "engineers" put into manuals to cover up shoddy/cheap work.

Anyone that thinks that level of oil burn on a modern non-performance car is acceptable is bat caca retarded.

Here's an example we just had last Thursday with a level 3 Symantec engineer. We've had issues with Backup Exec 2014 SP1 doing GRT backups without relying on the agent. One of the issues was failure at the verification phase. Their official documented suggestion? Disable backup verification because the the backups would let you know if something went wrong during the backup phase.

Like I said, retarded.

Heh, I'm an IT guy... Though I have rebuilt quite a few engines.

 

[Zorba]

I think the minute level of oil consumption you claim to experience is perfectly normal.

The owner's manual for your vehicle says that you should only worry about oil consumption in excess of 1 quart every 1,200 miles. Any consumption level below that amount is considered, by the engineers who built the engine to be within normal limits.

There is a difference between the level of oil consumption typically seen, and the maximum allowed within normal limits.

"Higher than average" and "within normal limits and not warranting mechanical repair" are not mutually exclusive when describing oil consumption. If a person cannot understand this, that person lacks the fundamental mechanical knowledge to intelligently comment on the matter.

ZV

Limits like that are not typically set solely by engineering. The engineers probably just buy off on it not hurting anything, doesn't mean it should be expected. Kind of like on an airplane, you can dump quite a bit of hydraulic fluid into the fuel and it not cause any problems, doesn't mean you want to continuously do it though.

Another example, typically hydraulic actuators are allowed to leak ~5-20 drips per minute, but if every actuator on the aircraft was dripping at limits, the airlines would go nuts and no pilots would actually take the damn thing.

 

[gerhardub]

Those oil burn rates are normal. Annoying, but normal.

Hopefully that was an oil level light and not an oil pressure light.

Naaaaw, it the oil level light.

Needed one QT for the 3.6 and 1.5 QT for the 2.5 respectively.

 

[gerhardub]

I think the minute level of oil consumption you claim to experience is perfectly normal.

The owner's manual for your vehicle says that you should only worry about oil consumption in excess of 1 quart every 1,200 miles. Any consumption level below that amount is considered, by the engineers who built the engine to be within normal limits.

There is a difference between the level of oil consumption typically seen, and the maximum allowed within normal limits.

"Higher than average" and "within normal limits and not warranting mechanical repair" are not mutually exclusive when describing oil consumption. If a person cannot understand this, that person lacks the fundamental mechanical knowledge to intelligently comment on the matter.

ZV

I understand entirely.

I just don't care, as your point is not valid in this situation: during the warranty period "higher than average" and "within normal limits and not warranting mechanical repair" are actionable items to be corrected; any burning of oil that causes the low oil indicator to flash requires remediation of the oil rings, etc.

There is an an ethical right and wrong about this issue. If the cars in question require being checked like the diapers on an infant, every few minutes, to be facetious, then the manufacturer is attempting to limit loss at the expense of its customers.

...and my claims are fact: I used a graduated cylinder to determine the precise amount of makeup oil.

When I get done with the prescribe change interval, I'll send a sample to the lab.

What I want is peice of mind, what we purchased was something that will likely get much worse and leave us holding the bill.

 

[gerhardub]

Limits like that are not typically set solely by engineering. The engineers probably just buy off on it not hurting anything, doesn't mean it should be expected. Kind of like on an airplane, you can dump quite a bit of hydraulic fluid into the fuel and it not cause any problems, doesn't mean you want to continuously do it though.

Another example, typically hydraulic actuators are allowed to leak ~5-20 drips per minute, but if every actuator on the aircraft was dripping at limits, the airlines would go nuts and no pilots would actually take the damn thing.

Exactly.

It's much more likely that automotive companies have the "1QT per 1000 miles" warranty to limit the financial burden on them.

Though I do find the concept of that being the limit of the emissions systems to be interesting.

It's very difficult to believe, for a moment, that anyone designed a passenger car in the last 15 years to burn any significant amount of oil.

Just to put a number on it, I'd consider significant more than 1QT in 10k.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

I don't have any noticeable oil consumption in my 07 Honda Fit, which has 151k. My old Saturn SL1 consumed a quart every 1000-1500 miles, but the valve cover gasket was leaking at the very top.

 

[LTC8K6]

Exactly.

It's much more likely that automotive companies have the "1QT per 1000 miles" warranty to limit the financial burden on them.

Though I do find the concept of that being the limit of the emissions systems to be interesting.

It's very difficult to believe, for a moment, that anyone designed a passenger car in the last 15 years to burn any significant amount of oil.

Just to put a number on it, I'd consider significant more than 1QT in 10k.

How about Chrysler's 1qt in 2,000 miles new and 1 qt in 750 miles broken in? And that's for commuting use only.

Subaru looks great...

Oil Consumption
The accepted rate of oil consumption for engines used in the vehicles listed above is 0.946 liter (1 qt.) in 3,200 km (2,000 mi) for the 1st 80,467 km (50,000 mi). For vehicles with more than 80,467 km (50,000 mi) the acceptable oil consumption for engines is 0.946 liter (1 qt.) in 1,207 km (750 mi).
CAUTION: This above rate only applies to personal use vehicles, under warranty, that are driven in a non-aggressive manner and maintained in accordance with the appropriate maintenance schedule,
CAUTION: This rate does not apply to vehicles that are driven in an aggressive manner, at high RPM, high speeds, or in a loaded condition (for trucks).

You'd have already completely changed the oil after 5,000 miles of driving...you could just change the filter every 5K miles. At 1 qt every 750 miles, your oil is always fresh.

 

[heymrdj]

How about Chrysler's 1qt in 2,000 miles new and 1 qt in 750 miles broken in? And that's for commuting use only.

Subaru looks great...



You'd have already completely changed the oil after 5,000 miles of driving...you could just change the filter every 5K miles. At 1 qt every 750 miles, your oil is always fresh.

But the engineers must have said that's ok. Couldn't have had anything to do with Chrysler not wanting to bleed money on a crappy motor design.

 

[exar333]

I would honestly not be happy if my new car burned a quart of oil every oil change (~3000 miles). After maybe 30-40k, a partial quart each oil change would be acceptable, and then maybe more like a quart or so per change cycle could be lived-with. Again, this is just an average, with some engines definitely doing better or worse. This is assuming a 'standard' engine, not rotary, etc.

One point I will agree with some others on is that cars are <> appliances. Burning oil is one thing, but expecting NO oil will ever be burned and complaining that you should do general check-ups on your car is just silly. Just because we have TPMS, oil-interval lights, headlight/blinker 'warning' lights, low-fluid lights, and so forth doesn't mean you still shouldn't those things your self from time to time along with other basic stuff.

Just as anything can fail, those monitoring systems can give false positives or false negatives. You can't depend on them 100%. Know how to properly check your oil, feel when your tires are too low and take a minute to check your lights if things don't look 'right'. I am not a car expert, but you should know enough to understand when there might be a problem before it becomes really serious, like still waiting 5k for an oil change when you know your car burns 1qt/1k.

Edit: Glad my 2.5T doesn't burn oil.

 

[slag]

I think the minute level of oil consumption you claim to experience is perfectly normal.

The owner's manual for your vehicle says that you should only worry about oil consumption in excess of 1 quart every 1,200 miles. Any consumption level below that amount is considered, by the engineers who built the engine to be within normal limits.

There is a difference between the level of oil consumption typically seen, and the maximum allowed within normal limits.

"Higher than average" and "within normal limits and not warranting mechanical repair" are not mutually exclusive when describing oil consumption. If a person cannot understand this, that person lacks the fundamental mechanical knowledge to intelligently comment on the matter.

ZV

No modern day car should be burning oil unless it is how that engine is designed. Subaru engines should not be burning oil, no matter what the car maker says. Subaru engineers are trying to justify it because otherwise the company would go bankrupt trying to fix the problem. Not every Subaru engine consumes large amounts of oil, so you can't say that they are designed to do that. This is purely a knee jerk reaction to a problem they won't or can't fix. It should be printed on every Subaru window sticker that the automaker says it's acceptable and normal for this engine to consume up to one quart of oil for every 1400 miles because I highly doubt consumers know about this when they purchase the car since it is not "normal" for an engine from most of the other car makers to do this.

 

[Clump]

My GF had a 2013 Subaru Legacy with the 2.5L 4 until very recently. She bought the car new in December of 2012. It had about 26K miles on it when traded on a Mazda CX-5 2 weeks ago.

The car did not use significant oil between changes until recently. At about 22K the oil light came on and it was a quart low. I admit that up to this point I was remiss on checking oil, but I'm used to not having to do it in modern engines. I began to check it more regularly then and it needed another quart at 24k. Oil change at 25K and needed a quart at 26K. Definitely getting worse.

She has a very low tolerance for any kind of car trouble and traded it within a couple of days of adding that last quart.

 

[jlee]

No modern day car should be burning oil unless it is how that engine is designed. Subaru engines should not be burning oil, no matter what the car maker says. Subaru engineers are trying to justify it because otherwise the company would go bankrupt trying to fix the problem. Not every Subaru engine consumes large amounts of oil, so you can't say that they are designed to do that. This is purely a knee jerk reaction to a problem they won't or can't fix. It should be printed on every Subaru window sticker that the automaker says it's acceptable and normal for this engine to consume up to one quart of oil for every 1400 miles because I highly doubt consumers know about this when they purchase the car since it is not "normal" for an engine from most of the other car makers to do this.

Ford says 1 quart per 1000 miles. GM has models with 1 quart every 2000 miles being listed as acceptable. IIRC Toyota also says 1 quart per 1000 miles. BMW? 1 quart, 750 miles.. Oh hey, Porsche too!

oh noes, Subaru's trying to justify it and no other manufacturers have this issue!!!1111

 

[heymrdj]

Ford says 1 quart per 1000 miles. GM has models with 1 quart every 2000 miles being listed as acceptable. IIRC Toyota is 1 quart per 1000 miles.

oh noes, Subaru's trying to justify it and no other manufacturers have this issue!!!1111

There's a difference between saying and doing. There are so many models out there that don't have engines that do this, it's expected that a normal consumer car engine will not have issues. Manufacturers that do will be held to that lack of quality standard. It needs to be well broadcasted that Subaru is leaving drives holding the bag on substandard build quality.

No one can really be so dense as to not see this.

 

[jlee]

There's a difference between saying and doing. There are so many models out there that don't have engines that do this, it's expected that a normal consumer car engine will not have issues. Manufacturers that do will be held to that lack of quality standard. It needs to be well broadcasted that Subaru is leaving drives holding the bag on substandard build quality.

No one can really be so dense as to not see this.

Why Subaru and not BMW? Porsche? GM? Ford? Toyota?

 

[Ferzerp]

jlee, would you really be satisfied putting a quart of oil in a new vehicle with every other fuel fill?

 

[heymrdj]

Why Subaru and not BMW? Porsche? GM? Ford? Toyota?

I don't see where they haven't? Ford Ecoboost had an oil and CAC issue. Both were blasted until Ford recalled and replaced the CAC's.

Ford was blasted for the 6speed dual clutch. Ford has now extended warranties to 100K miles on the transmission and associated power train components. If there was an out of warranty repair done on the transmission before this went into affect, Ford has issued checks for the full repair bill of the car.

GM ignition (though that took way too long)
Toyota has an oil burn issue and that's moving towards class action status now.

I don't really follow the BMW's and Porche's, but they also tend to not be your basic daily driver consumer car with higher than average performance metrics. I wouldn't stand for it, but in the end this whole argument is based around how badly consumers are willing to stand and get shafted.