Class Action Lawsuit Targets Subaru Oil Consumption

[jlee]

The problem is that the catalyst has a finite life... granted, there are three on my H6, and I think two on the 2.5i that my wife has...

I just had the dealer tell me they needed to change the transmission fluid... (Which I had changed 20k miles ago.) So I asked them, how did you arrive at that conclusion? Does is look dark? Does it smell burnt? I changed it 20,000 miles ago, and the recommended interval is about 35K per change... so how did you arrive at this conclusion? (-crickets-)

"We assumed it was time to change it.."

I'm starting to have a love / hate relationship with Subaru. With other vehicles there are CLEARLY defined maintenance intervals, and with everything, except the oil, Subaru just tells the dealer to wing it.

So now I'm sending everything out to a lab. I change the transmission fluid, a sample goes to the lab. I change the break fluid, sample to the lab... I change the engine oil, sample to the lab...

I'm going to treat this car like a tractor-trailer and effectively get blood work on it.

I'm gonna go with "not likely" on that one.

http://www.cars101.com/subaru/maintenance-2013.html

Your user's manual doesn't list maintenance intervals?

 

[gerhardub]

I'm gonna go with "not likely" on that one.

http://www.cars101.com/subaru/maintenance-2013.html

Your user's manual doesn't list maintenance intervals?

Nope.

My owners manual does not have anything except the oil change interval so far as I can see.

(I've got it in my hand now.)

I might be missing one item (tires?), but all I see immediately is the engine oil.

It's very clear about using only ATF HP or Subaru CVT, using only Subaru Coolant (and not messing with it before 100k+), and a few other things.

At to my original post that prompted your (awesome) link to the maintenance items:

Note that the ATF is also a long term item with only an "inspect" at 30K and 90k.

As I stated, I'd already changed the ATF.

I will correct my assertion to indicate that my specific dealer is telling customers to CHANGE fluids, etc., when Subaru is telling them to INSPECT them.

For example, the dealer has told me to change the oil every 3500 miles. When I ask why, given that the recommended interval is 7500 miles, there is no answer. They told me we needed to change the ATF, when I asked why it was because that's what Subaru recommends, which is false. Especially, given that it was changed already.

I've even had them tell me that I needed to change the air filter, when I changed it two weeks before bringing the car in for a quick oil change.

Maybe it's just my dealer? Of course, I consider them to represent Subaru...

 

[LTC8K6]

Odd that you have to go hunting on the internet to find a Subaru maintenance schedule.

 

[gerhardub]

Odd that you have to go hunting on the internet to find a Subaru maintenance schedule.

You bring up a good point.

So I went into my wife's Legacy, which is really the same basic car as my Outback (both are 2013s), and SHE has a booklet that has the maintenance schedules in it.

However, my 3.6R Outback does not.

I do find it odd that at Subaru:

- If you purchase the OEM service manuals, they are about $1000.00, they don't have the maintenance schedules in a discrete location (like, for instance, an $80.00 Honda OEM service manual does), and they only tell you how to repair stuff -literally.

- The maintenance schedules are only found in a separate booklet, and not part of the owners manual.

It's like they are trying to coerce you into going to the dealer for everything.

(I know that most of us know how to us the web, but when I'm working on a car, I prefer to have a hard copy. I also know that you can purchase a limited online access to the service manual from both Subaru and others... )

 

[NutBucket]

I think the dealer simply neglected to hand you that booklet. It's come with all the Subarus we've bought.

 

[LTC8K6]

I think the dealer simply neglected to hand you that booklet. It's come with all the Subarus we've bought.

I was unable to find it in the online area at the Subaru site where you can download the manuals for your vehicle.

 

[Jumpem]

All of my Subaru's have come with the separate booklet for the maintenance schedule as well.

 

[Zorba]

The problem is that the catalyst has a finite life... granted, there are three on my H6, and I think two on the 2.5i that my wife has...

I just had the dealer tell me they needed to change the transmission fluid... (Which I had changed 20k miles ago.) So I asked them, how did you arrive at that conclusion? Does is look dark? Does it smell burnt? I changed it 20,000 miles ago, and the recommended interval is about 35K per change... so how did you arrive at this conclusion? (-crickets-)

"We assumed it was time to change it.."

I'm starting to have a love / hate relationship with Subaru. With other vehicles there are CLEARLY defined maintenance intervals, and with everything, except the oil, Subaru just tells the dealer to wing it.

So now I'm sending everything out to a lab. I change the transmission fluid, a sample goes to the lab. I change the break fluid, sample to the lab... I change the engine oil, sample to the lab...

I'm going to treat this car like a tractor-trailer and effectively get blood work on it.

The Subaru dealer network is awful. Which I think is true of most brands that have very few lots in a metro. Everyone I know with VWs, Audis and Acuras complain about their dealers too. I actually drive a couple hundred miles to get to a dealer that is worth a damn.

I also know a lot of dealers for every brand (and quick lube places for that matter) "recommend" intervals based on a 1976 car and fluids, instead of a modern car with modern fluids. I have a friend with a Ford that has a recommended interval of 10K, and she gets it done every 3K because "that is what the 'mechanics' say to do" with full synthetic.

 

[jlee]

The Subaru dealer network is awful. Which I think is true of most brands that have very few lots in a metro. Everyone I know with VWs, Audis and Acuras complain about their dealers too. I actually drive a couple hundred miles to get to a dealer that is worth a damn.

I also know a lot of dealers for every brand (and quick lube places for that matter) "recommend" intervals based on a 1976 car and fluids, instead of a modern car with modern fluids. I have a friend with a Ford that has a recommended interval of 10K, and she gets it done every 3K because "that is what the 'mechanics' say to do" with full synthetic.

Meanwhile, I have yet to hear anything negative about any Lexus dealer ever. They seem to have it figured out.

Gotta pay, though...

 

[mvbighead]

I have a friend with a Ford that has a recommended interval of 10K, and she gets it done every 3K because "that is what the 'mechanics' say to do" with full synthetic.

This is purely based on $$$$$. The old 3k mile intervals of old kept customers coming in all the time. And when a customer was in, you could look things over and recommend this that or the other, and pad your bottom line.

Not saying the mechanic is a crook, but for the most part, you want that daily traffic to produce income. Oil changes every 3k miles vs 10k miles is going to drive a LOT more traffic.

 

[Zorba]

This is purely based on $$$$$. The old 3k mile intervals of old kept customers coming in all the time. And when a customer was in, you could look things over and recommend this that or the other, and pad your bottom line.

Not saying the mechanic is a crook, but for the most part, you want that daily traffic to produce income. Oil changes every 3k miles vs 10k miles is going to drive a LOT more traffic.

I was implying the "mechanic" is a crook (Mechanic in quotes, because I doubt the lube guys are truly mechanics)

 

[Meghan54]

Meanwhile, I have yet to hear anything negative about any Lexus dealer ever. They seem to have it figured out.

Gotta pay, though...

I've got one. Lexus dealer outside Boston. Took our LX there to get a key cut and an estimate for timing belt/water pump replacement.

An hour or so later, the service advisor calls us into his cubicle and shows us the results of their free vehicle inspection and the estimates.

The timing belt/water pump replacement came to around $1200. Not a great price, but it's a Lexus dealer, so what can you expect?

The kicker was the "dangerous" exhaust leaks both exhaust manifolds had...."dangerous" was one trigger word used to describe the leaks, massive was the other trigger word. The gent stressed it was dangerous to drive the truck and it'd only be around $5k to replace both manifolds, which included a pair of cats that are welded to the manifolds.



Hmmmmm. Now I'd been driving this truck for two weeks, had been under the hood more than twice, even with the engine running, and never heard anything that remotely sounded like an exhaust leak.....and I've heard a few in my years.


Anyway, we thanked him and paid for the key and drove off in our unsafe truck. A week later, we're at the Hyannis Toyota dealer getting the timing belt/water pump replaced ($775) and specifically asked that the exhaust system be checked for leaks as we were told there were some.

When we picked up the truck, received a clean bill of health. No leaking manifolds or anything else.

Damn crooks at Lexus. At least the muffin bar was nice as were the marble floors and very nice bathrooms.

 

[HybridSquirrel]

I'm gonna go with "not likely" on that one.

http://www.cars101.com/subaru/maintenance-2013.html

Your user's manual doesn't list maintenance intervals?

I was suspicious about the quoted user's statement. However, I called up my local subaru dealer to get a 60k service on my STi and what was included. What they told me was not what is listed in my maintenance book, the link you cited, or anywhere online. They basically told me all I get is an oil change, and trans flush with an inspection on the brakes. However, I am supposed to get a whole lot more.

I then called up a dealer on the mainland and pretended I lived there and needed a 60k. They told me I don't get an oil change or trans flush, but I do get spark plugs and wires, and a PS/Alternator belt.


So, two dealers from two different states giving two different stories. It is likely OP was telling the truth, that some dealers wing it. Neither dealer used Subaru OEM fluids either, which are explicit required in the service manual.

 

[gerhardub]

Well, here is the update to the story...

Both of our Subarus are burning oil, and they are both 2013 model year Subarus.

One is a 3.6 - six cylinder, which burns 1 QT of oil evey 6000 miles. The Oil Change Interval is 7500 miles, which means the car cant make the specified OCI without the oil light turning on.

The BIG issue is that the Subaru FB25 - 2.5L 4 cylinder in our Legacy is burning oil at a rate of 2 QTs every 6000 miles. The OCI is 7500 miles on the 2013. So, obviously, this is an issue.

At this time, if a stealership indicates that you are burning too much oil, Subaru recommends replacing the short block. However, there is a catch:

The biggest issue at the moment is that Subaru’s dealers dont get paid full rate for the engine work. They also dont get allocated enough hours that make sure doing the short block is really cost effective for them. In addition, the dealer has to repair any issues resulting with replacement of the short blocks, which seems to be frequent. As such, many dealers are resorting to adding too much oil to the engine during the oil consumption tests (which are performed as per the “FB Engine Oil Control Ring TSB Oil Consumption Test” document). They are appear to be doing this to prevent having to replace the engines on vehicles that only burn oil at a rate of two QTs evey 7200 miles, which is the replacement threashhold.

We are on our third oil consumption test! The dealer overfilled the engine two times; we took pictures both times and sent the to Subaru of America.

The first time they put almost 3/4 of a QT too much in the engine, and the second time about 1/3-1/2 QT to much in it.

On the third test, the dealer put a sealant on the dipstick so that we cant take pictures of them overfilling the engine with oil.

...and Subaru or America is letting the dealer get away with it.

 

[Meghan54]

Neither dealer used Subaru OEM fluids either, which are explicit required in the service manual.

So, the dealers/Subaru pay for your fluids, right? Otherwise, Subaru cannot require only use of specifically Subaru branded fluids(or any other specific brands of anything for that matter) to maintain your warranty status.

They can recommend anything they want, but requiring a specific brand of fluid/anything else to maintain warranty status puts the onus on the manufacturer to pay for such fluids/etc.

 

[gerhardub]

So, the dealers/Subaru pay for your fluids, right? Otherwise, Subaru cannot require only use of specifically Subaru branded fluids(or any other specific brands of anything for that matter) to maintain your warranty status.

They can recommend anything they want, but requiring a specific brand of fluid/anything else to maintain warranty status puts the onus on the manufacturer to pay for such fluids/etc.

Yep, it's Actually against Federal Law to void a warranty if the same specification fluids are used during maintenance.


Also, if you've ever tried to go to Subaru dealer and get QT sizes of Subaru branded motor oil, they laugh at you... as IF they are using it, they purchase it in 55 gallon drums.

 

[Jumpem]

Well, here is the update to the story...

Both of our Subarus are burning oil, and they are both 2013 model year Subarus.

One is a 3.6 - six cylinder, which burns 1 QT of oil evey 6000 miles. The Oil Change Interval is 7500 miles, which means the car cant make the specified OCI without the oil light turning on.

The BIG issue is that the Subaru FB25 - 2.5L 4 cylinder in our Legacy is burning oil at a rate of 2 QTs every 6000 miles. The OCI is 7500 miles on the 2013. So, obviously, this is an issue.

At this time, if a stealership indicates that you are burning too much oil, Subaru recommends replacing the short block. However, there is a catch:

The biggest issue at the moment is that Subaru’s dealers dont get paid full rate for the engine work. They also dont get allocated enough hours that make sure doing the short block is really cost effective for them. In addition, the dealer has to repair any issues resulting with replacement of the short blocks, which seems to be frequent. As such, many dealers are resorting to adding too much oil to the engine during the oil consumption tests (which are performed as per the “FB Engine Oil Control Ring TSB Oil Consumption Test” document). They are appear to be doing this to prevent having to replace the engines on vehicles that only burn oil at a rate of two QTs evey 7200 miles, which is the replacement threashhold.

We are on our third oil consumption test! The dealer overfilled the engine two times; we took pictures both times and sent the to Subaru of America.

The first time they put almost 3/4 of a QT too much in the engine, and the second time about 1/3-1/2 QT to much in it.

On the third test, the dealer put a sealant on the dipstick so that we cant take pictures of them overfilling the engine with oil.

...and Subaru or America is letting the dealer get away with it.

I'm sorry to hear this. I have never had an issue in any of my four Subarus. Well that I am aware of, as the low oil light has never come on.

 

[gerhardub]

Currently, it's looking like a BIG issue. Seriously, it appears that MANY models are having an issue with burning oil.

The truth of the issues is that you want to buy an older (pre-2010) model with low mileage on it until they resolve their issues.

I suspect that'll be a year or so.

The bigger issue is that they are getting their butts handed to them financially.

 

[Jumpem]

Currently, it's looking like a BIG issue. Seriously, it appears that MANY models are having an issue with burning oil.

The truth of the issues is that you want to buy an older (pre-2010) model with low mileage on it until they resolve their issues.

I suspect that'll be a year or so.

The bigger issue is that they are getting their butts handed to them financially.

Or lease a newer model with a 60K mile power train warranty. No need to worry, just give back in three years.

I am looking forward to a 2016 Outback next May. Or maybe this November if I am able to turn in my current lease six months early.

 

[gerhardub]

Or lease a newer model with a 60K mile power train warranty. No need to worry, just give back in three years.

I am looking forward to a 2016 Outback next May. Or maybe this November if I am able to turn in my current lease six months early.

That's a great idea, but our FB25 has less than 25,000 miles on it and it burns 2 QTs every 6000 miles.

...Warranties are great, if they actually DO warranty them.

 

[Jumpem]

That's a great idea, but our FB25 has less than 25,000 miles on it and it burns 2 QTs every 6000 miles.

...Warranties are great, if they actually DO warranty them.

Does your low oil light come on, or are you checking it constantly?

 

[Jumpem]

Duplicate post.

 

[gerhardub]

The oil light comes on without fail at about 3400 miles...

So, yeah, we're checking the oil all the time.

...or a least were until the dealer started the third oil consumption test and sealed the dipstick so that we couldn't tell if they overfilled it for the third time.

 

[unokitty]

Sorry to hear about your continuing oil consumption issues. Though, I appreciate your posts and hope that you continue to update us here...

The situation seems pretty oblique. Goggling around finds plenty of oil consumption reports and, at least, two lawsuits. Though, one also finds plenty of reports from owners that say they don't have the problem.

Appears that there are at least two different attempted remedies from Subaru. Initially, change the rings, later change the short block. But no consensus on whether either of these are effective ...

At the same time, Subaru is reporting record sales...

Anyway, appreciate your posts and hope it works out for you.

Uno

 

[BUTCH1]

Maybe try to switch away from M1 and use the magical Shell Rotella T6?

No, this is what to use...