Clinton "Scandals" vs. Trump "Scandals"

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emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,813
1,566
136
Gore was very much a war hawk and no different than any other candidate that either party had fielded for president. He is on record for supporting US foreign policy prior to and after 9/11 including the invasion and regime change in Iraq. He indeed would have done the exact same as Bush.

https://www2.gwu.edu/~action/2004/gore/gore092302sp.html

Well documented.

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...spv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=gore+would+have+invaded+Iraq

Except Gore opposed the war in Iraq.

"The vast majority of those who sponsored, planned and implemented the cold-blooded murder of more than 3,000 Americans are still at large, still neither located nor apprehended, much less punished and neutralized," Gore said. "I do not believe that we should allow ourselves to be distracted from this urgent task simply because it is proving to be more difficult and lengthy than predicted."
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Gore was very much a war hawk and no different than any other candidate that either party had fielded for president. He is on record for supporting US foreign policy prior to and after 9/11 including the invasion and regime change in Iraq. He indeed would have done the exact same as Bush.

https://www2.gwu.edu/~action/2004/gore/gore092302sp.html

Well documented.

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...spv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=gore+would+have+invaded+Iraq

How In the Hell you reached that conclusion from your linked piece is beyond comprehension.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,131
30,082
146
How In the Hell you reached that conclusion from your linked piece is beyond comprehension.

When what you strive to believe can't be proven and is, in fact, confounded by opposing facts, just toss up your hands, say "fuck it," point to those actual facts and tell people that they say something completely different.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Except Gore opposed the war in Iraq.

I don't think that's entirely true. He opposed "going it alone" and would have sought a bigger coalition but there doesn't appear to be any evidence he said "we shouldn't invade Iraq" without qualifiers. Now in practice that might have meant no war if he couldn't find enough coalition partners, etc. but that is a counterfactual argument.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/23/gore.iraq/


While backing Bush's overall goal of ousting Saddam and eliminating Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, Gore questioned the timing of a military strike, as envisioned in the proposed resolution he's sent to Capitol Hill.

"President Bush now asserts that we will take pre-emptive action even if we think the threat we perceive is not imminent. If other nations assert the same right then the rule of law will quickly be replaced by the reign of fear -- any nation that perceives circumstances that could eventually lead to an imminent threat would be justified under this approach in taking military action against another nation," Gore said.

"An unspoken part of this new doctrine appears to be that we claim this right for ourselves -- and only for ourselves," he said.
 

SR-71 Blackbird

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2013
13
0
61
Trump will win because America is sick of all the lies and deception of bought politicians on both sides of the Aisle.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,625
50,834
136
I don't think that's entirely true. He opposed "going it alone" and would have sought a bigger coalition but there doesn't appear to be any evidence he said "we shouldn't invade Iraq" without qualifiers. Now in practice that might have meant no war if he couldn't find enough coalition partners, etc. but that is a counterfactual argument.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/23/gore.iraq/

That quote pretty clearly says we shouldn't invade Iraq. It is indicting the entire idea of a preemptive attack.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,813
1,566
136
I don't think that's entirely true. He opposed "going it alone" and would have sought a bigger coalition but there doesn't appear to be any evidence he said "we shouldn't invade Iraq" without qualifiers. Now in practice that might have meant no war if he couldn't find enough coalition partners, etc. but that is a counterfactual argument.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/23/gore.iraq/

Yes, because he initially thought the evidence that was provided was accurate. By trying to build a coalition, Gore would have acceded to the demands of countries like France (remember Freedom Fries), thus he wouldn't have manipulated evidence, he would have given the inspectors time to inspect, and the inspectors wouldn't have found weapons because there were none. Bush's cronies wanted the war, they rushed it and fabricated evidence to get it done. That was a pretty dark time for our country (a lot of people who weren't pro war were called traitors and terrorist sympathizers) so, can we please not rewrite it.
 

squarecut1

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2013
2,230
5
46
More news about the disgust of the younger people of this country towards the Hillary vs Trump choice. Ties in to what I was mentioning about my nieces and nephew

Younger voters are shunning the two major political parties on a scale not seen since Ross Perot’s third-party bid for the presidency in 1992

More than a third of voters 18 to 29 said in [URL='http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/16/us/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump-poll.html']the latest New York Times/CBS News poll
that they would vote for either Gary Johnson, the Libertarian candidate, or Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate:[/URL]

Some excerpts:

------
The Clinton campaign’s biggest problem with young voters could be summed up by Mr. Frasier. He is liberal-minded and voted for Mr. Sanders in the South Carolina primary. But he is not likely to vote for either Mrs. Clinton or Donald J. Trump, the Republican nominee, both of whom he called “pawns and puppets.”

Echoing sentiments that seem to be driving many young people away from politics, Mr. Frasier said he felt powerless to bring about change through voting. “I don’t feel like we have control,” he said. “I kind of feel like this whole election is just playing the American people.”
-----

Nick Chanko, 20, is a student at McGill University in Montreal who plans to vote in his home state, New York. A registered Democrat, he said he would either vote for Ms. Stein or not vote at all.

“I feel like a lot of the stuff Hillary does, you can see when she is trying to, like, earn the youth vote, and it just doesn’t work,” Mr. Chanko said. “It’s just kind of cringeworthy. She just doesn’t seem genuine.”

-----

Nathan Mowery, a 26-year-old federal contractor who lives in Gainesville, Va., said that as a Muslim, he would find it hard to vote for Mr. Trump. But he said that he found Mrs. Clinton uninspiring and that he planned to vote instead for a third-party candidate. He was unapologetic about his choice.

“I’m casting a protest vote because it makes it visible to major parties that there are people who are motivated to vote but are unwilling to vote for either of them,” he said. “I hope that whoever runs in 2020 will get their act together and one of the parties will put somebody up that younger voters can align themselves with.”

-----

Being New York Times and of course a cheerleader of Hillary (Wash Post has probably been worse) they throw in a lot of Nader. But you can't change the facts, you can't put lipstick on a pig.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
I don't think that's entirely true. He opposed "going it alone" and would have sought a bigger coalition but there doesn't appear to be any evidence he said "we shouldn't invade Iraq" without qualifiers. Now in practice that might have meant no war if he couldn't find enough coalition partners, etc. but that is a counterfactual argument.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/09/23/gore.iraq/

There are a lot of ways to caution against war, which was what Gore was doing. He covered the subject with qualifiers that, if observed, would have ruled out the invasion of Iraq.

From the "What Congress should do" section-

I believe, therefore, that the resolution that the President has asked Congress to pass is much too broad in the authorities it grants, and needs to be narrowed.


Had that been done & had the rest of that paragraph been observed, there would have been no invasion.

When Shinseki offered that he'd need 600,000 troops to pacify Iraq, he was scorned & discredited. The Bushistas figured that Freedumb! would be enough.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
Trump will win because America is sick of all the lies and deception of bought politicians on both sides of the Aisle.

But Trump's behavior suggest he will also rely upon lies and that he can also be bought. There is no point electing a non-politician that acts like a politician.
 

squarecut1

Platinum Member
Nov 1, 2013
2,230
5
46
. They then upped the magical percentage to get into their closed party debate format to 15% for 3rd party candidates.

And that is why you don't have Johnson or Stein in these "debates", either of which could easily shred to pieces these two sleazy individuals and the interests they represent. Instead we are talking about beauty pageants and their weights in presidential debates. What a laughing stock we have made of ourselves.

From that same news piece
----
The stubborn popularity of the third-party candidates has become a concern to Mrs. Clinton and her allies. So far, the support for them has not softened, as it often does in the fall.

“Historically, that’s what has happened,” said Jefrey Pollock, who is advising the “super PAC” working on Mrs. Clinton’s behalf, Priorities USA. “But history isn’t repeating itself right now, which is one common theme of this election cycle.”

Some of Mrs. Clinton’s advisers believe that the absence of Mr. Johnson and Ms. Stein from the debate stage on Monday — both failed to meet the 15 percent polling threshold to qualify — will help bring down their numbers.
----

Keep the honest voices out, that is how you keep the corrupt system going.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
And that is why you don't have Johnson or Stein in these "debates", either of which could easily shred to pieces these two sleazy individuals and the interests they represent. Instead we are talking about beauty pageants and their weights in presidential debates. What a laughing stock we have made of ourselves.

You're working awfully hard to fool yourself. If Stein or Johnson actually made sense & had coherent platforms they'd have more support, but they don't, so here we are.
 

chowderhead

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 1999
2,633
263
126
You're working awfully hard to fool yourself. If Stein or Johnson actually made sense & had coherent platforms they'd have more support, but they don't, so here we are.
can Johnson even remember his own name? The guy should put down the bong and read a newspaper. Stein is pro-Putin but anti vaccines. She is nuttier than a can of peanuts. Clinton is the most qualified. Omigod, they don't agree with me completely .... the grass is greener. I am tired of the news stories begging young people to put down their phones and vote. If they can't see the stakes this election, that is on them. Information on all the candidates is widely avaliable.
 
Reactions: Brainonska511

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
C;mon Jhnn, you did not address his point. Clinton has indicated she wants to take down Assad EVEN if it brings America into conflict with Russia. She makes no secret of this and is a fundamental foundation of her foreign policy plan.

Can you please back this up with a link or quote? I was surprised to read this and googled around. Found several references to her seeking a diplomatic solution to remove Assad and end the Syrian civil war. And her not wanting to send American troops into Syria. So please show me what I've missed.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
You're working awfully hard to fool yourself. If Stein or Johnson actually made sense & had coherent platforms they'd have more support, but they don't, so here we are.

Really? It seems to me the exact same people who think it is a wasted vote would still not support them and the exact same people who think they are better candidates and not a wasted vote would still support them for a net change of 0.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
There are a lot of ways to caution against war, which was what Gore was doing. He covered the subject with qualifiers that, if observed, would have ruled out the invasion of Iraq.

From the "What Congress should do" section-



Had that been done & had the rest of that paragraph been observed, there would have been no invasion.

When Shinseki offered that he'd need 600,000 troops to pacify Iraq, he was scorned & discredited. The Bushistas figured that Freedumb! would be enough.

I return to the last sentence of my post. Any speculation about what Gore would have done or not done is a counterfactual argument. All we know is that he didn't definitively say we should invade Iraq and likewise didn't definitively say we should not invade Iraq. You can add all the qualifiers you want but they still don't rule out either course of action. And even if he had used definitive words he still might have taken the opposite action anyway, remember Bush and "read my lips, no new taxes."

And now let's get the thread back on topic and return to the argument at hand.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
We know what happened under Bush though. 3000 Americans dead on 9/11 and 5000 in Iraq.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
We know what happened under Bush though. 3000 Americans dead on 9/11 and 5000 in Iraq.

Thanks for that useful tidbit. I'll be sure not to vote for Bush.

Oh and BTW 2004 called and wants its argument back. Now that we have that ritual denunciation out of the way let's return to 2016 and the actual thread topic.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
Clinton isn't as bad as Trump, but she's still a fucking rotten choice for prez.

That some people need to go to elaborate exercises to convince themselves otherwise is only more proof of it. A non-rotten candidate wouldn't need such gymnastics.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,635
3,509
136
Thanks for that useful tidbit. I'll be sure not to vote for Bush.

Oh and BTW 2004 called and wants its argument back. Now that we have that ritual denunciation out of the way let's return to 2016 and the actual thread topic.

Yes, let's get back to talking about how a vote for a minor party candidate is a vote for President Camacho.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,534
15,416
136
Trump should be held to the same standards as Hillary when judging his scandals while he was serving the people of the United States as a public servant, all we need is someone to make a list of them.

Or, maybe, held to any standard! Maybe instead of judging him as a public servant we can judge him as a person, as a businessman, or on his charity work, or any numerous things people not in public service are judged upon. How about that?

Why should he call for Trump to release his last 4 years of emails? How would that make them equal? Clinton deleted (or had deleted) emails from when she was Secretary of State so she could circumvent FOIA rules in order to hide what she was doing from us the voting public. The optics are that she doesn't want us to see the peddling of influence and access in exchange for Clinton Foundation that took place, but currently this is more in the speculative territory. Trumpnever served as SoS however or any other public office that would fall under it, so he has no obligation nor expectation to release anything.

He certainly is obligated to release his tax returns as has every presidential candidate for the last first years did before him.

Your claim about avoiding FOIA requests is also bullshit as she would have had the same opportunity to do so if she had used a government email account as the standard at the time was that the SoS was the person who was allowed to decide what emails from the SoS were government related.

Trump will win because America is sick of all the lies and deception of bought politicians on both sides of the Aisle.

So instead of a lying politician they will vote for a psychological lying business man who uses his charity to pay off politicians? Hilarious!
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Or, maybe, held to any standard! Maybe instead of judging him as a public servant we can judge him as a person, as a businessman, or on his charity work, or any numerous things people not in public service are judged upon. How about that?

He certainly is obligated to release his tax returns as has every presidential candidate for the last first years did before him.

Your claim about avoiding FOIA requests is also bullshit as she would have had the same opportunity to do so if she had used a government email account as the standard at the time was that the SoS was the person who was allowed to decide what emails from the SoS were government related.

So instead of a lying politician they will vote for a psychological lying business man who uses his charity to pay off politicians? Hilarious!

WRT the bolded he's obviously not obligated as otherwise we'd already have them or he would have been prevented from running had he not provided them. You're looking for the word "customary" or "expected" instead.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,534
15,416
136
WRT the bolded he's obviously not obligated as otherwise we'd already have them or he would have been prevented from running had he not provided them. You're looking for the word "customary" or "expected" instead.

Obligated as in compelling for moral reasons.

But hey, thanks for the buckshat!
 
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