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Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
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NVIDIA are not crippling Kepler. Kepler was designed for a time when games were tuned for NVIDIA hardware. That time is gone. Now NV need to design more GCN-like hardware or fall behind.

This is all due to the console effect.
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
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threw in a few new titles

WHat specific newer released titles did they miss? the ones in Alpha or beta?
I see a wide selection of popular games from the past 6 months including popular older titles. What more do you want?

Kepler is falling behind, not because of drivers but because of the console effect. You don't see either babeltech or hardware canucks mentioning this.

Whats the console effect? Can you link me to something reputable that proves this theory of yours? Please no rumor sites and something in english.
thanks
 

BlitzWulf

Member
Mar 3, 2016
165
73
101
Yes I am.
DO you think if you optimize for a 7970 in a driver that it would optimize for the 280x and 380x? Yes it would.
That's not a real architectural update/ that's what I call a refinement.

If you optimize for Kepler would the same optimizations work for Maxwell?
No.
If you optimize for Maxwell does the Kepler cards see increases? no.

Pretty simple to see and I must add, a good way to sell cards and move technology forward..

No it absolutely would not. I think what you're really implying is that GCN generations are so similar that driver optimizations apply to every iteration in the same way. this is patently false the 280X consistently slightly outperforming the 380X until the very newest games started releasing is good proof of this there is also plenty of other evidence to show that GCN generations are not a one size fits all thing when it comes to optimization.

I'ts a great way to bleed your customer base with little technical understanding, I agree.
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
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Now NV need to design more GCN-like hardware or fall behind.

This is all due to the console effect.

I think you should start a thread, with specific links, facts and such, that proves the console effect or it has no reason to be in this thread.

Thanks
 

Mercennarius

Senior member
Oct 28, 2015
466
84
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I think you should start a thread, with specific links, facts and such, that proves the console effect or it has no reason to be in this thread.

Thanks


Do you honestly think the fact that 95+% of all mainstream games are designed to run as well as possible on AMDs GCN architecture utilized on the PS4 and Xbox One has no effect on PC owners who have GPUs running similar hardware?
 

kondziowy

Senior member
Feb 19, 2016
212
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In games from 2009-2013 (and old drivers) 780Ti OC is better in all of them, or even crushing 290x OC by a whopping 50-100% (even in 1440p!) in:
- Borderlands,
- Metro Last Light,
Or 30% better in
- Crysis 2,
- Batman AC,
- Max Payne 3,
- AC 3,
- Far Cry 3,
- The Secret World
- Bioshock Infinite
- Splinter Cell Blacklist
- Batman Arkham Origins
Overall commanding lead.


In games from 2014-2016 (new drivers) 780Ti is worse in all than 290x especially in 1440p exept winning in:
- Wolfenstein 2015,
- Total War 2015,
- Project Cars 2015,
- Fallout 4 (but here on par in 1440p),
- On par in RotTR 1440p.
Overall losing.

In 2016 games 780Ti started to really struggle. So it is downgraded now in comparison to release state.
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
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No it absolutely would not. I think what you're really implying is that GCN generations are so similar that driver optimizations apply to every iteration in the same way. this is patently false the 280X consistently slightly outperforming the 380X until the very newest games started releasing is good proof of this there is also plenty of other evidence to show that GCN generations are not a one size fits all thing when it comes to optimization.

Yes I am.
If you can explain to me the specific differences between a 7970, 280x and 380x, mabe I would understand. I know the clocks, memory controllers and such are somewhat different but what else.

I would say a driver for gtx680/gtx780/780ti is comparable to a driver for 7970/280x/290. would you?
Where does Maxwell fit?
 

Kris194

Member
Mar 16, 2016
112
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Can anyone tell me how can people believe that 290x is performing better than GTX 780 Ti, especially in CPU heavy games such as GTA V while everyone know that AMD has huge problem with CPU overhead in their Directx 11 drivers. Moreover, people call sites such as PCLab unreliable because they make real world tests, not pure benchmarks.
 
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Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
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The console effect doesn't need links from "reputable sources" because, pardon my French, the tech media is made up of amateurs.

If you want to see the console effect, watch SIGGRAPH and GDC presentations from 2015 and on. Each one is presented by devs working to extract as much performance as possible out of GCN hardware (XBOX One/PS4). These optimizations carry over to the PC versions of those games.

This is why we've seen the GTX 780 Ti go from a dominant position to trailing the R9 290x in these newer titles.

Of course you need to understand GPU architectures in order to understand those developer talks.

Another example is the Doom Alpha, which Bethesda mentioned contained only "console optimizations". How did it run? Better on GCN.
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
14,387
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Do you honestly think the fact that 95+% of all mainstream games are designed to run as well as possible on AMDs GCN architecture utilized on the PS4 and Xbox One has no effect on PC owners who have GPUs running similar hardware?

I need a link for the 95% part... and I need a link to what devs are specifically designing their games to run on a consoles and using PC's as an afterthought.

It would be my opinion if games devs are using the weak consoles as the basis for a game, don't expect much from said game.

Its been my experience that these games usually suck. I want to know what games to avoid.

thanks in advance for the links.
 

BlitzWulf

Member
Mar 3, 2016
165
73
101
Yes I am.
If you can explain to me the specific differences between a 7970, 280x and 380x, mabe I would understand. I know the clocks, memory controllers and such are somewhat different but what else.

I would say a driver for gtx680/gtx780/780ti is comparable to a driver for 7970/280x/290. would you?
Where does Maxwell fit?

It seems we are desperately in need of a good Mahigan post here, I cant fully explain all the differences, I know that there are dramatic changes to the ACE's between all GCN iterations,not even taking into account the Vast differences in the front ends of them add to that the fact that in the last 5 years with the exception of the 380X AMD has only launched new Archs on their top end cards so almost everything about them is wildly different from the previous gen Rops tmu's,rasterizers..etc. etc.. The 7970 GHZ and 280x ARE the exact same GPU slightly tweaked so you are likely right about optimizations being shared there.

I'm afraid your final question makes no sense to me could you please clarify?
 
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happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
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The console effect doesn't need links from "reputable sources" because, pardon my French, the tech media is made up of amateurs.

Well then link me to your reviews or please make a new thread about your console theory.
I cant have the readers of my/this thread being derailed by your opinion.
Check forum rules please.
link or leave.
thanks
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
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I know that there are dramatic changes to the ACE's between all GCN iterations,not even taking into account the Vast differences in the front ends of them.

I don't think its a dramatic change or vast differences.

This is why we've seen the GTX 780 Ti go from a dominant position to trailing the R9 290x in these newer titles.

I believe that the links provided a different picture. A picture of a company moving to optimize for Maxwell, not a console.
 

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
0
0
Considering that I am discussing the topic at hand, I am not derailing the thread.

The topic is "Has NVIDIA forgotten Kepler" and I am answering that question. You may not like my answer but I do have the right to speak freely on these forums.
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
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I'm afraid your final question makes no sense to me could you please clarify?

Sorry, let me try.

I believe there are drivers that optimized Kepler in 2012/2013, gtx680/780/780ti
I also believe that if it were not for Maxwell the dates above would be 2012/2016

I believe there are drivers that optimized GNC in 2012/2013 are the same drivers that still optimize GNC in 2016 because they had no Maxwell.
 

BlitzWulf

Member
Mar 3, 2016
165
73
101
I don't think its a dramatic change or vast differences.



I believe that the links provided a different picture. A picture of a company moving to optimize for Maxwell, not a console.

OK let me ask you this the 980 and 970 are both Maxwell architecture however the 970 has a memory system that has a .5 GB section that runs slower than the rest . Nvidia optimizes this per game for the 970 by making sure it's never loaded with data that needs to be accessed quickly,if optimizations were universal for every card in the same architecture,why would they need to do this? because gpu's even within the same architecture are unique and need to be optimized with attention to those unique qualities there are alot of things to take into consideration.
 
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happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
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Considering that I am discussing the topic at hand, I am not derailing the thread.

The topic is "Has NVIDIA forgotten Kepler" and I am answering that question. You may not like my answer but I do have the right to speak freely on these forums.


I'm sorry mabe you missed this part.

"I'm going to ask you guys to please discuss the data in the linked article, "

If fact, I do see a reasoning behind your answer, but until you back it up, it has no place here.
I like the answer but you cant expect us to just take your word for it right?
I invite you to make a new thread but you don't, because you need links and facts to post a new thread and you have none.

Now please stop derailing.:thumbsup:
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
121
Considering that I am discussing the topic at hand, I am not derailing the thread.

The topic is "Has NVIDIA forgotten Kepler" and I am answering that question. You may not like my answer but I do have the right to speak freely on these forums.
Well this is a thread that says "Hey, discuss this topic, but ONLY use this data to do so", so technically speaking, you're off topic.

However, what we can conclude from the article is this:
When AMD makes a chip, they will continue to extract more and more performance from it at a greater rate than Nvidia.
And that when Nvidia makes a chip, it's not forward looking. It's very current looking and will not last long.
It's also more targeted to lower resolution gaming vs AMD targeting higher resolution.

So if you want a 1080p chip for today that won't last long and you want to buy another video card in 2 years, get Nvidia.

Until Nvidia changes, that's how it will be.

The R9 290x will have been better than the GTX 780 Ti GTX 980, and don't worry, it could pass the 980Ti one day too consistently.
 
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Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
6,133
10,556
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Just because you're the op doesn't mean you can control what people can or can't say in the thread. You started a thread and Mahigan contributed according to the topic of the thread (IMO). If you really think him giving context to the numbers is off topic, tell the mods and they'll do their job if necessary.
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
14,387
480
126
OK let me ask you this the 980 and 970 are both Maxwell architecture however the 970 has a memory system that has a .5 GB section that runs slower than the rest . Nvidia optimizes this per game for the 970 by making sure it's never loaded with data that needs to be accessed quickly,if optimizations were universal for every card in the same architecture,why would they need to do this? because gpu's even within the same architecture are unique and need to be optimized with attention to those unique qualities there are alot of things to take into consideration.

I think its a given that certain cards, games and such will get special attention
,it happens, and it happens on both sides but thats hardly a architecture type of driver change.

You don't think AMD would change a driver if said game dev made use of all 8 ACE's? Some AMD cards only have 2.
I think that's a given.

But that's a good example.
 

Mahigan

Senior member
Aug 22, 2015
573
0
0
Well this is a thread that says "Hey, discuss this topic, but ONLY use this data to do so", so technically speaking, you're off topic.

However, what we can conclude from the article is this:
When AMD makes a chip, they will continue to extract more and more performance from it at a greater rate than Nvidia.
And that when Nvidia makes a chip, it's not forward looking. It's very current looking and will not last long.
It's also more targeted to lower resolution gaming vs AMD targeting higher resolution.

So if you want a 1080p chip for today that won't last long and you want to buy another video card in 2 years, get Nvidia.

Until Nvidia changes, that's how it will be.

The R9 290x will have been better than the GTX 780 Ti GTX 980, and don't worry, it could pass the 980Ti one day too consistently.

Not at all... It says..

I'm going to ask you guys to please discuss the data in the linked article...

The data shows that after 2014, games began to perform better on the 290x than the GTX 780.

So in discussing this data, I put forward my views on the trend.

I am fully in topic. 100%. I am not derailing at all. I'm quite certain the mods would agree with that.
 
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