Cold fusion or elaborate hoax?

nCred

Golden Member
Oct 13, 2003
1,106
107
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Don't know if this has been posted, but i searched for fusion and didn't find anything.

Link

The latest news occurred last week, when Italian scientists Andrea Rossi and Sergio Focardi of the University of Bologna announced that they developed a cold fusion device capable of producing 12,400 W of heat power with an input of just 400 W. Last Friday, the scientists held a private invitation press conference in Bologna, attended by about 50 people, where they demonstrated what they claim is a nickel-hydrogen fusion reactor. Further, the scientists say that the reactor is well beyond the research phase; they plan to start shipping commercial devices within the next three months and start mass production by the end of 2011.

Back in january when I read about this I thought it was some kind of fraud. However, new tests have been done since then and more people are starting to believe it's real.

18 hour test

Link

Any chemical process should be ruled out for producing 25 kWh from whatever is in a 50 cubic centimeter container. The only alternative explanation is that there is some kind of a nuclear process that gives rise to the measured energy production.

So three independant (?) physicists who observed the tests thinks this could be the real deal.

More info
 
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Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
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I think the US would be smart to fast track this patent(if documented correctly) so the scientific world can get a view of what is actually happening.
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
Some of the comments are interesting, reading through the math (even if I don't fully understand it).

Some of them, and the cynicism of some people, are really disturbing.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
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www.neftastic.com
In other news, the arc reactor is now nearing commercial production thanks to innovations at Stark Industries.

Oh this is rich too:

According to a press release in Google translate, the scientists say they cannot explain how the cold fusion is triggered, “but the presence of copper and the release of energy are witnesses.”

"We don't know how it works, but just take our word for it."
 
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DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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With gasoline prices skyrocketing, I was just thinking the other day, "this is really weird. I haven't seen any free energy scams yet this time. Usually when energy prices soar, scammers come out of the closet in droves."

Although the reactors can be self-sustaining so that the input can be turned off, the scientists say that the reactors work better with a constant input.
Red flag #1

The scientists also say that one reactor has been running continuously for two years, providing heat for a factory. They provide little detail about this case.
Red flag #2



Rossi and Focardi’s paper on the nuclear reactor has been rejected by peer-reviewed journals, but the scientists aren’t discouraged. They published their paper in the Journal of Nuclear Physics, an online journal founded and run by themselves
Red flag #3


The fact that Rossi and Focardi chose to reveal the reactor at a press conference, and the fact that their paper lacks details on how the reactor works, has made many people uncomfortable. The demonstration has not been widely covered by the general media.
50 hand-chosen journalists, yet it's not widely covered by the general media? The general media is filled with idiots who have reported on these things before, thinking they were real. Red flag #4


Of course, I don't think I needed any red flags before realizing this is bullshit. Physics, as currently understood, says that this isn't going to happen. For it to happen, physicists would have to be very wrong about a lot of things that they have shitloads of experimental evidence confirming to extraordinary degrees of precision. These two inventing cold fusion would require completely new physical theories, replacing many of the old theories, before you got to the point of creating this cold fusion. It's akin to having an 8 year old with a 32-in-1 chemistry kit from Radio Shack just randomly playing with the relatively harmless chemicals and suddenly declaring that he was able to create photosynthesis in a test tube using nothing more than a few off the shelf chemicals.


edit: I take that back. It would be several orders of magnitude more likely for the kid to create photosynthesis in a test tube using off the shelf chemicals.

I looked into this further - one of these scientists has committed fraud before. And now, they're *selling* the devices. That SCREAMS fraud. The only thing I question is whether they'll vanish with the money first, or whether they'll come up with some excuse for none of the devices working (while selling yet more of them before attempting to vanish), or if someone with a clue will stop them before they rip people off.
 
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PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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Complete BS. I don't even have to look at all the details to know this is a hoax or a scam or both.
 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
5,758
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With gasoline prices skyrocketing, I was just thinking the other day, "this is really weird. I haven't seen any free energy scams yet this time. Usually when energy prices soar, scammers come out of the closet in droves."


Red flag #1

Red flag #2




Red flag #3




50 hand-chosen journalists, yet it's not widely covered by the general media? The general media is filled with idiots who have reported on these things before, thinking they were real. Red flag #4


Of course, I don't think I needed any red flags before realizing this is bullshit. Physics, as currently understood, says that this isn't going to happen. For it to happen, physicists would have to be very wrong about a lot of things that they have shitloads of experimental evidence confirming to extraordinary degrees of precision. These two inventing cold fusion would require completely new physical theories, replacing many of the old theories, before you got to the point of creating this cold fusion. It's akin to having an 8 year old with a 32-in-1 chemistry kit from Radio Shack just randomly playing with the relatively harmless chemicals and suddenly declaring that he was able to create photosynthesis in a test tube using nothing more than a few off the shelf chemicals.

I am a skeptic by nature. However, I do understand the issue of not talking openly about your invention if you are having patent issues.

My co-worker couldn't talk about his patent crap until he at least had patent pending paperwork. Then he had to be careful still to not put his patent at risk.

These guys have brought in actual skeptics/physicists for demonstrations now. They have witnessed the machine working. My biggest issue is this. The "creator" provided the samples of both the ingredients and byproducts. It would be much more convincing if a scientist was allowed to run the machine in their own lab and prepping the machine themselves. That would eliminate most possible trickery. The scientists could monitor their own power outputs.
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
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Rossi and Focardi’s paper on the nuclear reactor has been rejected by peer-reviewed journals, but the scientists aren’t discouraged. They published their paper in the Journal of Nuclear Physics, an online journal founded and run by themselves, which is obviously cause for a great deal of skepticism. They say their paper was rejected because they lack a theory for how the reaction works.

Not buying it. I'm sorry, but cold fusion is not just something that happens by accident. You don't throw random materials together with no underlying theory and hope to get fusion at room temperature.

Looked at their link for the patent. They basically just run pressurized hydrogen by nickel powder. This is so fake it's not even funny.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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Some of the comments are interesting, reading through the math (even if I don't fully understand it).

Some of them, and the cynicism of some people, are really disturbing.

Tell you what. I'll bet $1000 to your $10 that the claims are false. P.S. it's 4 months after the original article, yet the world is silent about their claims. 4 months and no reputable scientist has come forth to say "holy shit! They did it." I really hope you don't take me up on that bet, because I'd feel guilty taking your money - it'd be like stealing candy from a baby.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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OMFG, I'm LMAO
Here's their device!


No wonder they didn't invite mainstream media. I've said a hundred times here that journalism majors are idiots. But, I don't think that even they are that gullible.
 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
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Tell you what. I'll bet $1000 to your $10 that the claims are false. P.S. it's 4 months after the original article, yet the world is silent about their claims. 4 months and no reputable scientist has come forth to say "holy shit! They did it." I really hope you don't take me up on that bet, because I'd feel guilty taking your money - it'd be like stealing candy from a baby.

I certainly wouldn't take the bet but your statement is wrong. They just did a demo in March for people such as Dr. Edmund Storms. I don't know much about Dr. Storms but he appears to have been involved in research "cold fusion" at Los Alamos National Laboratory
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
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I certainly wouldn't take the bet but your statement is wrong. They just did a demo in March for people such as Dr. Edmund Storms. I don't know much about Dr. Storms but he appears to have been involved in research "cold fusion" at Los Alamos National Laboratory

Why is my statement wrong?
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
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Some of the comments are interesting, reading through the math (even if I don't fully understand it).

Some of them, and the cynicism of some people, are really disturbing.

It's not unreasonable to be cynical in some cases. This is one:

the experiments make an extraordinary claim - that of a totally new source of energy - yet have decided not to publish their data in the normal way, but by press conference.

they propose no plausible explanation for their effect, nor have analysed the device after use to see if their is evidence for the existence of their explanation.

their work has been rejected from scientific journals, for reasons unknown. However, it's probably because the descriptions of their analysis did not provide enough detail to be confident that measurement error or fraud were unlikely. (e.g. it's very easy to mismeasure certain things - electrical power being one of them - hence the profusion of 'electromagnetic overunity' devices working at high-frequency/high-voltage, where measurement requires exceptional care and special equipment)

The work has subsequently been published in a 'scientific journal', but the 'journal' is in-fact self-published by the experimenters and not peer-reviewed.

The type of 'partial' public demonstration given is quite common for hoaxes. I've seen it many times, where some 'magical' device is placed in a test rig. Engineers are brought and allowed to cursorily examine the test rig, but not the device itself. Often the examination is purely a description of what things are, not an explanation of what they do - it's surprisingly easy to mislead people when they only have limited information (e.g. looking inside a box and seeing devices, but not actually telling them, or letting them check, what the devices actually do) This isn't proof, or even evidence, of a hoax - but it is a sign of lack of openness.

Andrea Rossi (the lead experimenter) is an ex-con, having served jail-time for fraud. This does not mean that he is being dishonest in this case. However, it does mean that he has experience in deception, and has learned a hard lesson in how not to get caught.

Rossi has also been involved in a scandal regarding one of his earlier inventions - a technique for refining trash into oil, in order to avoid dumping garbage in landfill. This worked fine, but the the process concentrated all the toxins - heavy metals, etc. into a waste product. It caused a major scandal when it came out that this toxic waste product was simply being relabelled 'garbage' and shipped off to the municipal landfill.

The claim that they are delaying releasing information until the patent is granted is doubtful. Once you have filed the patent application, any duplication of the work will be proteced by the patent, once the patent is granted. This allows inventors to publish or sell publicly devices which have not yet completed the patent process, without risking the patent protection.

This story has so many 'red-flags' for a scam, it's amazing that it's got as much attention as it has. Still, if they are onto something, then it looks amazing, and I wish them luck. Realistically, though, I'm not holding my breath.
 
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DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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Ohhhh, THAT Dr Storms. He's been involved before with companies that are nothing but scams, claiming that "they work!" He may have worked at Los Alamos, but that was over 2 decades ago.

Here's the other fraud that Storms said was real:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacklight_Power

I particularly like the remarks of Dr Parks (University of Maryland) at the bottom. In fact, I subscribe to a letter he sends out weekly, bashing idiocy.
 

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
12,363
475
126
Further, the scientists say that the reactor is well beyond the research phase; they plan to start shipping commercial devices within the next three months and start mass production by the end of 2011.

heh i think every scam says some variation of this


i was kind of surprised there was no existing 'Journal of Nuclear Physics'
 

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
12,363
475
126
OMFG, I'm LMAO
Here's their device!


No wonder they didn't invite mainstream media. I've said a hundred times here that journalism majors are idiots. But, I don't think that even they are that gullible.

looks like someone tore the plumbing out of a shower and added some gas valves and thermocouple wire
 

manlymatt83

Lifer
Oct 14, 2005
10,051
44
91
In other news, the arc reactor is now nearing commercial production thanks to innovations at Stark Industries.

Oh this is rich too:



"We don't know how it works, but just take our word for it."

Hey, they say the same thing about anti-depressants.
 

KaOTiK

Lifer
Feb 5, 2001
10,877
8
81
"We don't know how it works, but just take our word for it."

There are products out there that are like this. Lunesta for example, is a sleeping pill but even in the commercial it says they aren't sure how it works.

I'm not saying this guys are legit, but that above statement is used on products that do what they are suppose to even if it isn't known how.
 

Mark R

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,513
16
81
There are products out there that are like this. Lunesta for example, is a sleeping pill but even in the commercial it says they aren't sure how it works.

I'm surprised they say that. The way lunesta works is well known. It was actually engineered to work in a similar way to alternative drugs (like attivan), but was modified sufficiently that it would hopefully have fewer side effects.

As it turned out, the side effect profile wasn't as good as had been hoped for.
 

SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
Tell you what. I'll bet $1000 to your $10 that the claims are false. P.S. it's 4 months after the original article, yet the world is silent about their claims. 4 months and no reputable scientist has come forth to say "holy shit! They did it." I really hope you don't take me up on that bet, because I'd feel guilty taking your money - it'd be like stealing candy from a baby.

Do you really feel so strongly against it that you see me as being all for it and have to pretend to bet money on it? Really?

I'm not betting anything one way or the other. Just sitting back and watching and finding this kind of stuff interesting, regardless of whether it is successful or not.

My reference to cynicism wasn't regarding it towards this cold fusion thing, but rather cynicism towards oil and coal companies, governments collapsing due to success/failure of such a device, people getting murdered over it, etc... people's cynical outlook on the world can be rather disturbing. That's all I meant by it.
 
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