Cold Fusion

[Bona Fide]

I just saw Spiderman 2 again, and if any of you have seen it [probably most of you], you might have also been as interested as me in Doctor Octavius' miniaturized Sun reproduction.

As we all well know, our Sun puts out more energy in minutes than we would in years. This has led scientists to believe that by harnessing the Sun's fusion/fission cycles, they would be able to create enough energy to power the entire world, indefinitely. It would eliminate the need for fossil fuels, and reduce ozone penetration and pollution. Not to mention that energy costs would drop like a rock, owing to how plentiful it would be.

Cold fusion - Wikipedia

The problem with recreating a Sun on Earth is that of immense temperature problems. Our Sun is 93 million miles (approx.) from us, and we still experience sweltering summers in places. The very fact that there are vast, expansive deserts, is a testament to the Sun's thermal potency. Hydrogen fusion, to my knowledge, can only occur at the kind of temperatures found on the Sun's surface. This is where cold fusion comes into play. There have not been many huge advances, but it is an effort to replicate the Sun's fusion cycles at MUCH colder temperatures.

Does anyone have an opinion on this? Maybe some more facts to add to my own? I think that this is an extremely feasible concept, but it won't be good enough for worldwide use until the late 21st century.

 

[BigPoppa]

Theres currently a fusion reactor being built. It is supposed to go online within the next year I believe. I personally don't see cold fusion occuring for a long period of time. Normal fusion will be a large enough boon for the next few decades.

 

[bobsmith1492]

From everything I've heard, cold fusion has been brought up repeatedly over the years and repeatedly disproven. I doubt it is much more than science fiction.

 

[Soccerman06]

There is really no such thing as cold fusion as of yet. Cold fusion would basically meen you made atoms fuse together at a temperature that they would normally never bond. There might be ways thought up in some distant future. Once you get to atom Calcium, fusion stops being energy proficient and you lose energy in the process.

Since you made a thread in the technical forum, I assume you know how fusion works so I will spare you guys the basics. Since you guys already know there is nothing that can technically touch the fusing materials once it has started because it would melt instantly. You can use powerful magnets to control the movement of the superheated plasma. A new reactor that is being constructed will use a circular cylinder with powerful magnets all around to control the movement around the cylinder (I dont know how they create electricity from that point.

I remember reading in Pop Sci that an isotope of Helium could be the third gen of fusion reactors. When the Helium is used, it creates pure electricity (and a little heat, nothing like a fusion reactor) and that the output would be the size of a fusion reactor's output. I do not know how the fusion with the Helium works but it apparently is cheap compared to convensional fusion. But there is very little of the Helium isotope on this planet, so little that tritium (Hydrogen-3) is 1000x more plentiful. BUT the Helium is on the moon, a lot of it. But then again this whole thing is still a prototype.

 

[Bona Fide]

This Helium isotope is on the Moon? I guess NASA will finally have a practical purpose now

 

[Woodchuck2000]

Originally posted by: Soccerman06
I remember reading in Pop Sci that an isotope of Helium could be the third gen of fusion reactors. When the Helium is used, it creates pure electricity (and a little heat, nothing like a fusion reactor) and that the output would be the size of a fusion reactor's output. I do not know how the fusion with the Helium works but it apparently is cheap compared to convensional fusion. But there is very little of the Helium isotope on this planet, so little that tritium (Hydrogen-3) is 1000x more plentiful. BUT the Helium is on the moon, a lot of it. But then again this whole thing is still a prototype.

Have you got a linky for that? I can't get my head round a fusion reaction that creates pure electricity...

 

[TheoPetro]

cold fusion was a mistake made by a group of scientists in like texas or somewhere areound there. they messed somethen up in their notes or in the expairment or something that led them to believe they discovered cold fusion. i guess w/o retesting (because of excitement or being idiots) they went and told everyone. this happened a few years ago (like 10 maby) and people around the world trying the exact setup they had cant recreate it and neither can they. its prettymuch a joke in the physics world now. guess thats whatcha get for not checking

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: TheoPetro
cold fusion was a mistake made by a group of scientists in like texas or somewhere areound there. they messed somethen up in their notes or in the expairment or something that led them to believe they discovered cold fusion. i guess w/o retesting (because of excitement or being idiots) they went and told everyone. this happened a few years ago (like 10 maby) and people around the world trying the exact setup they had cant recreate it and neither can they. its prettymuch a joke in the physics world now. guess thats whatcha get for not checking

Their method may not have worked, but the idea still remains.

 

[Bona Fide]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: TheoPetro
cold fusion was a mistake made by a group of scientists in like texas or somewhere areound there. they messed somethen up in their notes or in the expairment or something that led them to believe they discovered cold fusion. i guess w/o retesting (because of excitement or being idiots) they went and told everyone. this happened a few years ago (like 10 maby) and people around the world trying the exact setup they had cant recreate it and neither can they. its prettymuch a joke in the physics world now. guess thats whatcha get for not checking

Their method may not have worked, but the idea still remains.

 

[coomar]

isn't a hydrogen bomb an uncontrolled fusion reaction

 

[piddlefoot]

on discovery was a program that claimed to have held cold fusion for a couple of seconds before it becomes unstable,but the magnetic field and power reqiured was so great to get it running...
It showed a round donut like magnetic tube , which the magnetic field held within it the cold fusion, as nothing material can hold it.

 

[Soccerman06]

Originally posted by: Woodchuck2000

Originally posted by: Soccerman06
I remember reading in Pop Sci that an isotope of Helium could be the third gen of fusion reactors. When the Helium is used, it creates pure electricity (and a little heat, nothing like a fusion reactor) and that the output would be the size of a fusion reactor's output. I do not know how the fusion with the Helium works but it apparently is cheap compared to convensional fusion. But there is very little of the Helium isotope on this planet, so little that tritium (Hydrogen-3) is 1000x more plentiful. BUT the Helium is on the moon, a lot of it. But then again this whole thing is still a prototype.

Have you got a linky for that? I can't get my head round a fusion reaction that creates pure electricity...

I wish I could, but it was from Pop Sci, a couple months ago, Ill find which issue next time Im in the bathroom

Edit, I couldnt find it, but it could also be in a Pop Mech mag. The issue had on the front, "Why We Should Go Back To The Moon" or something like that.

 

[f95toli]

Originally posted by: piddlefoot
on discovery was a program that claimed to have held cold fusion for a couple of seconds before it becomes unstable,but the magnetic field and power reqiured was so great to get it running...
It showed a round donut like magnetic tube , which the magnetic field held within it the cold fusion, as nothing material can hold it.

I think you are describing a Tokamak, that is just an ordinary fusion reactor; definitly not cold (that is why you need the power, to heat up the plasma).

Btw, He-3 can as has already been written by found in the surface of the moon and it is more efficient than deuterium or trititum (in the sense that the fusion reactor becomes somewhat simpler) but is it still ordinary fusion and the basic reactor design is the same as for hydrogen.

I should point out that He-3 is not THAT expensive (I use it, but in a close cycle system), it is just too expensive for commercial reactors.

 

[Falloutboy]

what isotope of Helium is created when deuterium fuses?

 

[Soccerman06]

Originally posted by: Falloutboy
what isotope of Helium is created when deuterium fuses?

He-4

The Isotope Im talking about is like He-6.

I shall keep on looking for that mag but it might take a couple sittings on the toilet.

 

[f95toli]

I am quite sure there is no stable He-6 isotope.
I think you are refering to He-3

 

[AbsolutDealage]

Originally posted by: Soccerman06
Once you get to atom Calcium, fusion stops being energy proficient and you lose energy in the process.

From what I remember, the cut-over point is Iron.

 

[Bona Fide]

Originally posted by: AbsolutDealage

Originally posted by: Soccerman06
Once you get to atom Calcium, fusion stops being energy proficient and you lose energy in the process.

From what I remember, the cut-over point is Iron.

Well in any case, Hydrogen and Helium are the two simplest elements, so heat loss isn't even a concern. I think it's quite the opposite. There will be so much heat and energy output that we haven't even invented or discovered environments that can sustain it, short of the vacuum of space or an immensely powerful magnetic field.

 

[f95toli]

Yes, that is why fusion reactors DO use high vacuum and and immenseky powerfull magnetic fields.
That technology has been around for a long time. The problem is keeping the field stable enough but as far as I understand they have solved that problem as well.

 

[Soccerman06]

The problem with fusion is that the magnets and starting the fusion itself require so much energy that it offsets the power given off.

 

[JAGedlion]

Does cold fusion exist, yes, does it generate power? No.

Though a nice source of neutrons and other wierd quantum stuff the itsybitsy room temperature fusion generator needs some power to go. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7654627/

 

[Minotar]

First... Yes Fe is the KNOWN cut-off for fusion.

Second, cold fusion does not exist and is completely theoretical. In order to fuse 2 or more nuclei into one nuclei, an enormous amount of energy is required to overcome nuclear repulsions between the nuclei. Hydrogen in the sun is so hot and energized that all electrons have been stripped away (i.e. plasma). The lack of electron-electron repulsions coupled with extemely high temperatures and pressures allow protons to fuse in our Sun. The problem with cold fusion is that, even if you strip away the electrons on the nuclei, you still need to force the nuclei together! This MIGHT one day be possible, but not with the mere electrolysis experiments that others have claimed. My thoughts are that, with a catalyst, the temperature required may be able to be lowered, but not by much. Some deep work has to be done on this to bring it to fruition.

Now, as far as Spider-man 2... The fusion Dr. Otto Octavius did is extremely far fetched, even if it is interesting. First of all, it is just short of impossible to create a miniature sun on Earth. If it were possible, it would be the biggest threat the planet has ever known. The conditions within the sun are extreme! Our sun's fusion reactions actually occur at a much lower temperature than text-book hydrogen fusion because of the density and high gravity. We would have to either use ultra high temperatures (400MK) or simulate the conditions of the sun to achieve this. That is the first barrier:temperature... Now, the real problem after that, is containing it. The sun's power CANNOT be contained in a magnetic field like the tokamak reactor. The sun itself CREATES an immensely powerful magnetic field. The magnetic field created by a miniature sun would, more than likely, wipe out all electrical power on our whole planet and do far worse damage than the one in the movie. The fusion Doc Oc did is extremely far fetched, but still fun.

Now, some of you may be asking, "Well if it is so impossible, why have we been able to do controlled fusion reactions on this planet?" The answer is simple... We are able to do fusion because there are different tyes of fusion. The fusion in the sun is actually hydrogen-hydrogen fusion. This type of fusion is very different than the types that have been conducted on Earth and contained in magnetic confinement. The type of fusion conducted on Earth is known as deuterium burning. This is also known as the Deuterium Cycle. It involves the fusion of Deuterium and Tritium and occurs around 40MK. Even at these lower temps, you can see the immense barrier we have to overcome to perform controlled fusion on Earth. Current work is being done in France with the ITER reactor to perform this type type of fusion, but this is a far cry from "cold-fusion". The key will be getting more energy out than we have to put in. As in all thermodynamics, nothing is for fee

 

[Train]

<cfif ColdFusion NE Null>

<cfelse>

</cfif>

Heh, thats the Cold Fusion i know anyways

 

[DrPizza]

Minotar, why does the sun produce a magnetic field - or rather, in what manner would a miniature sun produce one with such a strong magnetic field that it would affect all electric on earth? Had I to guess, I would say that since the sun contains protons stripped of their electrons, and the sun is moving (spinning), then you have moving charges, thus a magnetic field. Would that magnetic field be that strong for such a small scale sun? (which can't exist, I realize that)

Also, before saying we can't make a small sun here on earth, I'd insert the word "stable" After all, if they succeed in a self-sustaining fusion reaction (more energy out than in), couldn't that be argued to be a "sun"?

 

[JAGedlion]

Originally posted by: Minotar
First... Yes Fe is the KNOWN cut-off for fusion.

Second, cold fusion does not exist and is completely theoretical.
....

you sure? I'm pretty sure the device I linked wasn't very hot, maybe I am mistaken? or did you just ignor my post?