Cold shoulder from Google?

[dxkj]

As administrator of small to medium sized website, advertising with Google has become the mainstay of our business. There has been a trend in the past few months of enormous numbers of Pay-Per-Clicks (some with 3 or 4 times the clicks received from Google's search itself) originating from Google's "partners". The only problem is that traffic originating from these "partners" is 95 and 100 times less likely to subscribe to our service. Here is the troubling part: with $150k a year spent on Google's Pay-Per-Click service, we cannot even get a person on the phone to discuss this obvious (and enormously costly) fraud.

While I have had the utmost respect for Google and what they have stood for and accomplished, I'm beginning to feel about them as I feel about Microsoft - a necessary evil against which any one person is impotent to affect. Is anyone else experiencing this, or possibly have a number to call to reach an actual person?

It seems that Google has a conflict of interest, as they are getting paid for these clicks, so what do they care?

 

With Google's partnership with AOL, and the upcoming image ads, expect Google's popularity to drop suddenly and sharply.

They will always have a great search engine, but it looks like they jumped the shark.

 

[dxkj]

So what do you do when Google has you by the balls? Because they literally do - and on their "support" chat, the rep told us to just turn off our advertising if we were unhappy...

Yeah. Like any web business could afford to turn off their Google listings....

Pissing me off... Feels like losing a mentor.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Organize. Your business isn't the only one experiencing this.

Press releases

Spokesperson.

Go "on strike" and have everyone turn off advestising for one day.

Collective bargaining

Class action suit.

 

[dxkj]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Organize. Your business isn't the only one experiencing this.

Press releases

Spokesperson.

Go "on strike" and have everyone turn off advestising for one day.

Collective bargaining

Class action suit.

Do you have any suggestions about how to find out if other businesses are experiencing this? I do know that the Terms of Use of AdWords states that you are in breach of contract if you discuss details of your contract/hits/cost per click/etc. The threat of that is very real - if they did cite us on breach of contract and terminate our service, we would literally go bankrupt. We depend on their services, which is the noose around our necks if we complain.

 

[jdini76]

Originally posted by: dxkj

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Organize. Your business isn't the only one experiencing this.

Press releases

Spokesperson.

Go "on strike" and have everyone turn off advestising for one day.

Collective bargaining

Class action suit.

Do you have any suggestions about how to find out if other businesses are experiencing this? I do know that the Terms of Use of AdWords states that you are in breach of contract if you discuss details of your contract/hits/cost per click/etc. The threat of that is very real - if they did cite us on breach of contract and terminate our service, we would literally go bankrupt. We depend on their services, which is the noose around our necks if we complain.

So, are you saying that your money is being wasted by advertising with google? Yet you depend on it to stay afloat. If Google's advertising is keeping you afloat, then I am missing the point of your complaint.

 

[AccruedExpenditure]

Originally posted by: dxkj
As administrator of small to medium sized website, advertising with Google has become the mainstay of our business. There has been a trend in the past few months of enormous numbers of Pay-Per-Clicks (some with 3 or 4 times the clicks received from Google's search itself) originating from Google's "partners". The only problem is that traffic originating from these "partners" is 95 and 100 times less likely to subscribe to our service. Here is the troubling part: with $150k a year spent on Google's Pay-Per-Click service, we cannot even get a person on the phone to discuss this obvious (and enormously costly) fraud.

While I have had the utmost respect for Google and what they have stood for and accomplished, I'm beginning to feel about them as I feel about Microsoft - a necessary evil against which any one person is impotent to affect. Is anyone else experiencing this, or possibly have a number to call to reach an actual person?

It seems that Google has a conflict of interest, as they are getting paid for these clicks, so what do they care?

If you're spending 150k you should be a silver or gold member IIRC... you should have a dedicated person for your account.

 

[dxkj]

So, are you saying that your money is being wasted by advertising with google? Yet you depend on it to stay afloat. If Google's advertising is keeping you afloat, then I am missing the point of your complaint.

An exact comparison is the old mining towns where the company owned the whole town you lived in, the stores, the housing, the saloons, etc. The company charged workers to live in the town as much as the workers made, so they didn't have the funds to move, and they had no choice but to stay and work. This is now illegal.

The point is that Google is allowing "partners" to gain commission on thousands (millions if you count sites other than ours) of fraudulent clicks and Google makes out like a bandit from it - they get paid for the clicks minus a small kickback (commission) to the people actually doing the fraud. So while we need their business, it's like a shopkeeper working for the mob - you pay up or you ship out.

To get the good traffic from Google's normal search, you have to (knowingly) pay for fraud that Google has the complete control to stop, but don't because it makes more money for them.

If you're spending 150k you should be a silver or gold member IIRC... you should have a dedicated person for your account.

Yes, and we do with our other advertisers - we have people that call US if something looks wrong or there is an anomolous spike in hits or clicks.

 

[Eeezee]

I'm a little confused on what you mean. You're saying that Google has partner sites, and traffic originating from those sites are unlikely to sign up for your services? How is this necessarily fraud?

Furthermore, how much extra are you paying for those supposedly "fraudulent" clicks in any given month/year? Is it really that much money?

And last of all, is it possible to ask Google that your ads only be hosted on Google, but not on its partners?

 

[dxkj]

In the order of $5k/month. Here's the breakdown of the major 2 "partners" we're focusing on:

These numbers are equivalent ratios, not the exact numbers.

Clicks from placement on Google's Search: 1000
Clicks from Random parked domain #1: 2500
Clicks from Random parked domain #2: 3000

Same cost per click across all 3.

Conversion rate from traffic from Google Search Clicks: 15%
Conversion rate from traffic from combined #1 and #2 Clicks: .18%

Yes, that's POINT 18 percent. 15% vs 0.18%

Basically worth almost 100 times less per click. You tell me what that seems like.

 

[Stuxnet]

Man, this sounds like a trainwreck.

This has the stinch of Microsoft and Intel all over it...

Pretty sad.

 

[kranky]

Originally posted by: Eeezee
I'm a little confused on what you mean. You're saying that Google has partner sites, and traffic originating from those sites are unlikely to sign up for your services? How is this necessarily fraud?

I think he's talking about those odd websites that have no content. All the pages have is a bunch of links to other sites and some Google ads. Now, if you're the site owner, and get a commission for every time someone clicks one of those ads, you might be tempted to find a way to generate a lot of fraudulent "clicks". That type of click-through isn't going to generate any sales for the people paying for the ads.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: dxkj
In the order of $5k/month. Here's the breakdown of the major 2 "partners" we're focusing on:

These numbers are equivalent ratios, not the exact numbers.

Clicks from placement on Google's Search: 1000
Clicks from Random parked domain #1: 2500
Clicks from Random parked domain #2: 3000

Same cost per click across all 3.

Conversion rate from traffic from Google Search Clicks: 15%
Conversion rate from traffic from combined #1 and #2 Clicks: .18%

Yes, that's POINT 18 percent. 15% vs 0.18%

Basically worth almost 100 times less per click. You tell me what that seems like.

OK, so you're saying the owners of those parked domains are doing something shady?

 

[dxkj]

Precisely. Go to http://www.anndtech.com/. That kind of crap. Whether legitimate traffic is coming from them or whether it's someone setting up rooms full of Indians clicking all day, the traffic is WORTHLESS, but you have to pay for it to get your results listed as a sponsored link on normal google searches.

2 groups are getting rich off this: Google and freeloading cybersquatters. I can't imagine the actual number of these fake domains - I randomly took the word 'anandtech', mispelled it 3 times, and each one was squatter page like this.

 

[Xylitol]

I for one welcome our Google overlords

 

[JS80]

You guys should consider an alternative - Business.com
They are a B2B vertical search engine.
PM me for contact information to a salesperson.
Cheaper than Google and it's targeted for business users who are ready to buy.

 

[mercanucaribe]

I dont' get what's going on. There are fraudulent clicks from links other than the ones on Google, yet it's Google's fault?

 

[DaveSimmons]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
I dont' get what's going on. There are fraudulent clicks from links other than the ones on Google, yet it's Google's fault?

The clicks are for Google AdWords. The junk site gets a commission, Google gets most of the money, the OP gets a worthless click from a Chinese WoW gold farmer working his second job as a clicker.

The junk sites are violating Google policy but Google is looking the other way since they still get paid.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
I dont' get what's going on. There are fraudulent clicks from links other than the ones on Google, yet it's Google's fault?

The clicks are for Google AdWords. The junk site gets a commission, Google gets most of the money, the OP gets a worthless click from a Chinese WoW gold farmer working his second job as a clicker.

The junk sites are violating Google policy but Google is looking the other way since they still get paid.

The partner gets paid 70%. Google has a lot of junk users too. You should try a B2B vertical search engine.

 

[dxkj]

Ok, got actual numbers These will make you laugh. The kind of hoarse laugh you make when you have just been kicked in the family jewels and you're about to keel over.

Originating page_________________Clicks_____Sales__Clicks/Sale
http:// landing.domainsponsor______1788______2______894
http:// searchportal.information_____2518______4______629
http:// megadirectory.ask__________138_______1______138.0
http:// pagead2.googlesyndication___78________1______78.0
http:// www.google_______________1184______157____7.5
http:// aolsearch.aol______________179_______38_____4.7

I'm sure the formatting is going to go out the window, but we'll see if it is legible.

As you can see, Google's "partners" have astronomically worthless visitor. If we paid a dollar a click, we would have to be making $900 per sale to make the advertising break even. While that might work for military spending, the average web business isn't making $900 profit on the average sale. And neither can we.

But they give no option to ONLY advertise with just Google - you are forced to allow their partners to charge you for the clicks as well. I can't say definativly that fraud is happening here - although it does look that way - but I can say that Google is being dishonest and unethical in allowing these partners to exist. The numbers here are from December, and the trends are similar to this for the past few months that I have data.

 

[sygyzy]

How could this be fraudulent? You agreed to join the program and google agreed to send you clicks. It just so happens that they clicks they send you, in your personal experience, are not garnering buys. There is no follow through.

At my previous company, they spent money on various marketing campaigns including television, radio, email, and print. Then they could tell you at a moment's notice which worked and which didn't. They tracked it. The ones that worked got more funding and the ones that didn't got reduced or scrapped. What is so hard about this? Why don't you cut google out if you feel like they are not working for you. Are you too dependent on them?

I do agree something should be done but I wouldn't necessarily call it fraud on google's part. Like Simmons said, you are not the only one affected. I am sure soon you'll start seeing a news article about this.

 

[Rallispec]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
I am sure soon you'll start seeing a news article about this.

click fraud has been around, multiple new articles have been written about it. In fact the founders of Google have been quoted as saying that click fraud is the #1 problem facing their business model right now.

Now the question is what (if anything) will they ever do about it.


As for the OP, unfortunately the are very few alternatives that get as much exposure as google...


Not knowing how googles system works, could you block links from those unwanted sites from your website - or would the click count regardless?

 

[Cheetah8799]

Originally posted by: Rallispec

Not knowing how googles system works, could you block links from those unwanted sites from your website - or would the click count regardless?

I'm pretty sure it counts regardless. It routes through a Google page before going to the OP's site.

 

[ATLien247]

Have your lawyer write a letter explaining the problem, the resolution you are seeking, and the measures you're willing to take if the problem continues. Send it via certified mail to your Google account manager, with carbon-copies going to Google's CEO and your state's Attorney General.

 

[sygyzy]

Sorry, I am a little confused. What exactly is the pay model here?

OP pays Google anytime someone goes to his site from a Google search/ad. Does the site that displays the link or ad get a cut of the money too?