College tuition

[doubledeluxe]

It's really simple. Do you guys think that our system makes sense and is good for the country?

1. In the US you can get a mediocre education with a $35,000 job waiting for you on the other end if you're lucky, and still pay $120,000 for a 4.5 year degree. Even if you were lucky and went to a good affordable school, in state, and lived at home, it will still cost you at least $50,000 in tuition.

2. In Europe you can pretty much get your education for free.

3. In South America it might cost you a couple thousand dollars a year for a good public university or you might pay quite a bit for your private school education but if you do you'll be studying with the kids of ambassadors and rich business people and at least make lots of contacts. It'll still be less than the $100k people are paying today. On top of that, with my friends at least, there are a lot of waiver programs that negate 100% of your education costs as long as you work in the country and don't just take your education and run.

I am starting to feel like we're heading in the opposite direction of everyone else. Am I missing the big picture? Why would you want your population to be heavily in debt or uneducated unless your motivation is not in the best interests of the people? How can our politicians talk about how great our economy has improved, how unemployment is really low, about GDP, but not address this ginormous problem?

I'm seeing too many schools with close to 100% acceptance rates, low graduation rates, low job prospects, but $100k costs. Why is this even legal? I'm also seeing tuition hikes that are approaching 300% in the last 10 or so years. Look at the CSU system for example. Look at community college tuition rates. Look at the UC system.

Up until a few days ago I thought it was only lawyers and doctors taking on 6 figure debt but from the looks of it, just about anyone who wants a degree today, and doesn't have the parents paying for it, will have to take on a very heavy burden.

 

[nickqt]

Either you want as many of your fellow neighbors to be intelligent and educated as possible, or you don't.

We do, but we also want to make sure they don't upend the current hierarchy, and massive student loan debt makes intelligent people into great indentured servants.

We need bunches of smart people to run all of the services and tech that we consider standard living, but we don't want them to take our job at the top with the way better salary and benefits.

So, go to college!*

*Student loan debt not dischargable in bankruptcy, unlike debt taken on by overshopping and frivolous spending.

Win-Win for the people at the top.

Same today as it was yesterday. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

 

[cabri]

Any one can pay $15-30K for a 4 years education also

Example:
Mass - In state
CC $700/yr
State University $900/yr
University of Mass $1800/yr

One can get an engineering degree out of the UMass system then for under $10K and get a job for $40-60K

The problem is that people may not want to go in-state or choose to go to a fancier private college.

You want out of state.
Go move to the desired state, establish residence for 2-3 years and then go to school

You want Private
Be prepared to pay for the priviledge

 

[nageov3t]

2. In Europe you can pretty much get your education for free.

"free"

rising tuition costs are a huge problem imo, but switching the burden of paying the cost from the students to the tax payers is just covering up the root issue that needs to be dealt with first.

there's also the issue of everyone being encouraged to go to a 4-year university regardless of their aptitude and career goals... I think we'd see higher rates of completion if things like trade schools, apprenticeships, and community colleges were more emphasized for some people.

Bob in HR doesn't necessarily need a 4-year degree in Journalism just to shuffle papers until retirement.

 

[finglobes]

The problem with US college education is that they've been able to jack-up costs continually (even outpaced health-care) because the financial aid and loan arrangements let them get away with it. All these liberal colleges who cry crocodile years about "income inequality" and serving 'the children" of today for the future of the country tomorrow are phonies because they have ZERO issue selling them out financially. Same thing with the chase for foreign students like the Chinese. They say its about "diversity" when its really about collecting all that out of country tuition. Some of the biggest whores in the universe are running US colleges.

 

[doubledeluxe]

"free"

rising tuition costs are a huge problem imo, but switching the burden of paying the cost from the students to the tax payers is just covering up the root issue that needs to be dealt with first.

there's also the issue of everyone being encouraged to go to a 4-year university regardless of their aptitude and career goals... I think we'd see higher rates of completion if things like trade schools, apprenticeships, and community colleges were more emphasized for some people.

Bob in HR doesn't necessarily need a 4-year degree in Journalism just to shuffle papers until retirement.

When your tax money is spent wisely it really does feel "free". Do you really think they care if they pay an extra 10% or 15% in taxes when you get free healthcare, education, 30 days vacation, maternity leave, pension, etc? It's a different discussion but trust me it's "free" in the sense that those extra taxes are giving you so much for your money vs here where people are dumping tons of their income, more than what I paid in taxes in Europe, into daycare, healthcare, education, retirement, etc.

Being encouraged to get an education is really only wise if you can take advantage of it. Someone who did poorly in high school is still being encouraged to go to college despite them either not being ready and needing time off or just not having what it takes to succeed at a university.

It's another crucial thing missing from our culture. Gap years. Just look at the statistics for people continuing past their freshman year to understand that they were not ready for college. Europeans don't even graduate highschool until they're 19 or 20 and then they take a year off to figure out what they want to do. I started college at 17. Huge difference.

We need to also encourage people to go to trade schools.

 

[nickqt]

Any one can pay $15-30K for a 4 years education also

Example:
Mass - In state
CC $700/yr
State University $900/yr
University of Mass $1800/yr

One can get an engineering degree out of the UMass system then for under $10K and get a job for $40-60K

The problem is that people may not want to go in-state or choose to go to a fancier private college.

You want out of state.
Go move to the desired state, establish residence for 2-3 years and then go to school

You want Private
Be prepared to pay for the priviledge

I don't think it's very reasonable to tell someone to move out-of-state to get a decent college education, since it's expensive to move somewhere that you don't necessarily have personal connections with. Telling someone from Kansas to just move to Massachusetts to get a cheaper education is the same as telling them to just go ahead and assume $50k in debt that they may or may not be able to pay off with whatever job they manage to find afterwards.

"free"

rising tuition costs are a huge problem imo, but switching the burden of paying the cost from the students to the tax payers is just covering up the root issue that needs to be dealt with first.

there's also the issue of everyone being encouraged to go to a 4-year university regardless of their aptitude and career goals... I think we'd see higher rates of completion if things like trade schools, apprenticeships, and community colleges were more emphasized for some people.

Bob in HR doesn't necessarily need a 4-year degree in Journalism just to shuffle papers until retirement.

Great points.

We should have more options than just "College". Often times, financial aid is available for more than just a 4 year degree, and you're right, not everyone is suited for going to school for 4+ years to earn a BA/BS. Not to mention that for a whole hell of a lot of jobs, a BA/BS is overkill.

Of course all of that said, tell that to the HR rep who throws away resumes unless there is a BA/BS listed under education. It works both ways.

The problem with US college education is that they've been able to jack-up costs continually (even outpaced health-care) because the financial aid and loan arrangements let them get away with it. All these liberal colleges who cry crocodile years about "income inequality" and serving 'the children" of today for the future of the country tomorrow are phonies because they have ZERO issue selling them out financially. Same thing with the chase for foreign students like the Chinese. They say its about "diversity" when its really about collecting all that out of country tuition. Some of the biggest whores in the universe are running US colleges.

The problem with the US is libruuls destroying everything because Master Limbaugh says so. Yeah, we get it. Libruuuls. Libruuuls, libruuuls, libruuuls.

 

[doubledeluxe]

Any one can pay $15-30K for a 4 years education also

Example:
Mass - In state
CC $700/yr
State University $900/yr
University of Mass $1800/yr

One can get an engineering degree out of the UMass system then for under $10K and get a job for $40-60K

The problem is that people may not want to go in-state or choose to go to a fancier private college.

You want out of state.
Go move to the desired state, establish residence for 2-3 years and then go to school

You want Private
Be prepared to pay for the priviledge

That's great but you then incur the costs of leaving your state and setting up shop in a new one. At least if you stay home you have a chance to live at home. I left home and I also left the country to study but it's not as easy as it looks without the contacts and a job that can support your rent and food. I also got tons of scholarships and grants and looking them up most of them are either on hold or have diminished payouts to students today.

What about those who aren't smart enough to get the grants, scholarships, or into the good schools that are affordable, but are still encouraged/forced to go to university because that's what everyone "has" to do?

Current student loan dept is how much? It crossed the trillion dollar mark. You picked an outlier. Most students are paying at least $10,000 a year for instate public education.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

The US needs to take over all colleges
Pair down the number in each state based on population/convert a percentage to trade schools
Place all college Deans/Professors on GS pay scales (other employees would be contractors).
Do away with all sports programs
Base all admissions on entrance scores which include abilities required for trade schools
If a person can't meet college entrance criteria, they will need to go to trade school. or choose to perform service work..

 

[pcgeek11]

That's great but you then incur the costs of leaving your state and setting up shop in a new one. At least if you stay home you have a chance to live at home. I left home and I also left the country to study but it's not as easy as it looks without the contacts and a job that can support your rent and food. I also got tons of scholarships and grants and looking them up most of them are either on hold or have diminished payouts to students today.

What about those who aren't smart enough to get the grants, scholarships, or into the good schools that are affordable, but are still encouraged/forced to go to university because that's what everyone "has" to do?

Current student loan dept is how much? It crossed the trillion dollar mark. You picked an outlier. Most students are paying at least $10,000 a year for instate public education.

Your BS comments are bolded and underlined above.

You didn't have to leave the country.
Those that aren't smart enough etc should probably go to trade school.
Nobody is forced to go to the University.
Everybody doesn't "have" to do it.

If you are really smart you can get an education without incurring massive debt. If you are stupid then you get what you have now...

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The US needs to take over all colleges
Pair down the number in each state based on population/convert a percentage to trade schools
Place all college Deans/Professors on GS pay scales (other employees would be contractors).
Do away with all sports programs
Base all admissions on entrance scores which include abilities required for trade schools
If a person can't meet college entrance criteria, they will need to go to trade school. or choose to perform service work..

Wut? Do away with all sports programs?

I mean, I agree that colleges these days are based WAAAAY too much on sports, but to do away with it completely?

A lot of college sports is the first step to getting students to the professional league.

 

[hal2kilo]

"free"

rising tuition costs are a huge problem imo, but switching the burden of paying the cost from the students to the tax payers is just covering up the root issue that needs to be dealt with first.

there's also the issue of everyone being encouraged to go to a 4-year university regardless of their aptitude and career goals... I think we'd see higher rates of completion if things like trade schools, apprenticeships, and community colleges were more emphasized for some people.

Bob in HR doesn't necessarily need a 4-year degree in Journalism just to shuffle papers until retirement.

Tell that to Bob in HR. They had to get a degree to get their job, so all others must.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Yes, do away will all sports programs. College should be a place for higher learning. Professional sports need to have their own farm leagues to develop new talents.

 

[doubledeluxe]

Your BS comments are bolded and underlined above.

You didn't have to leave the country.
Those that aren't smart enough etc should probably go to trade school.
Nobody is forced to go to the University.
Everybody doesn't "have" to do it.

If you are really smart you can get an education without incurring massive debt. If you are stupid then you get what you have now...

I didn't have to do anything. I had opportunities. Much more than young adults entering college have today. I left the country and got a free education overseas, worked, and spent my money on a cool apt in the center of a European capital, where I partied when I wasn't studying or working. Most can't do that. I also got a degree in the US and got a lot of aid that simply doesn't exist today due to funds being depleted from the great recession. Scholarships and grants payout based on their gains. I also had much lower tuition costs and rent was much less. Today that does not happen in many places.

Did you have something constructive or do you honestly just feel that it's a dog eat dog world out there and that we should leave it the way it is? You say you don't have to incur massive debt but I would disagree since the average is right around $10,000 a year and that's just tuition and not room and board.

 

[doubledeluxe]

Tell that to Bob in HR. They had to get a degree to get their job, so all others must.

This guild system is global though. In fact I'd argue we have less of it in the US. You still can get a job without a degree. It might be more rare but there are many places where you have ZERO chance to get a job without a degree. There is nobody to talk to, no door to knock on, everything is automated. We're probably heading in the direction of 100% automated filtration but we're definitely not there yet.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Even though most folks agree a college degree is currently a bad investment (inb4 all the engineering/hard science naysayers) there is STILL tremendous pressure on 'youts' by teachers, parents and, peers to go to college. No one is 'forced' to go but, no one tries to present a viable alternative either. Yout's themselves tend to look at college as a 'growing up' phase. It's absurd and definitely a 'first world problem.'

 

[doubledeluxe]

Even though most folks agree a college degree is currently a bad investment (inb4 all the engineering/hard science naysayers) there is STILL tremendous pressure on 'youts' by teachers, parents and, peers to go to college. No one is 'forced' to go but, no one tries to present a viable alternative either. Yout's themselves tend to look at college as a 'growing up' phase. It's absurd and definitely a 'first world problem.'

"The College Experience"

How can a young person not have that?!

Also, how do you convince a 17 year old that she/he should go to a trade school when "everyone else is going to college"?

These are pressures that are tough for a young one and adults aren't helping when they say you have "no future without going to college".

You have another problem and that is that cooking schools and the like are expensive. So you don't save any money there. Cooking schools are actually 30% more expensive than going to a regular university on average. I use this example since I have friends that are cooks in Europe and the idea of spending $60,000 a year to become a cook is just insane.

 

[doubledeluxe]

Even though most folks agree a college degree is currently a bad investment (inb4 all the engineering/hard science naysayers) there is STILL tremendous pressure on 'youts' by teachers, parents and, peers to go to college. No one is 'forced' to go but, no one tries to present a viable alternative either. Yout's themselves tend to look at college as a 'growing up' phase. It's absurd and definitely a 'first world problem.'

"The College Experience"

How can a young person not have that?!

Also, how do you convince a 17 year old that she/he should go to a trade school when "everyone else is going to college"?

These are pressures that are tough for a young one and adults aren't helping when they say you have "no future without going to college".

You have another problem and that is that cooking schools and the like are expensive. So you don't save any money there. Cooking schools are actually 30% more expensive than going to a regular university on average. I use this example since I have friends that are cooks in Europe and the idea of spending $60,000 to become a cook is just insane.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Even though most folks agree a college degree is currently a bad investment (inb4 all the engineering/hard science naysayers) there is STILL tremendous pressure on 'youts' by teachers, parents and, peers to go to college. No one is 'forced' to go but, no one tries to present a viable alternative either. Yout's themselves tend to look at college as a 'growing up' phase. It's absurd and definitely a 'first world problem.'

Where the hell did you hear this?

A college degree is STILL very much an EXCELLENT investment, provided that you aren't stupid.

Stupid includes:
-Getting a worthless degree that the market doesn't have jobs for
-Going to an out of state / private school and walk out with a debt of $165k

it's VERY easy to go to a state school and walk out with:
-Debt of Approx 10-30k depending on the school. Mine was ~$20k total
-A worthwhile degree (READ: Any business degree, STEM, etc..)
-A degree with a GROWING job market

Anyone who tells you college isn't a worthwhile investment is... well.. stupid (under the assumption that further educating yourself is worthwhile to your skillset).

 

[doubledeluxe]

Where the hell did you hear this?

A college degree is STILL very much an EXCELLENT investment, provided that you aren't stupid.

Stupid includes:
-Getting a worthless degree that the market doesn't have jobs for
-Going to an out of state / private school and walk out with a debt of $165k

it's VERY easy to go to a state school and walk out with:
-Debt of Approx 10-30k depending on the school. Mine was ~$20k total
-A worthwhile degree (READ: Any business degree, STEM, etc..)
-A degree with a GROWING job market

Anyone who tells you college isn't a worthwhile investment is... well.. stupid (under the assumption that further educating yourself is worthwhile to your skillset).

How long ago did you graduate? Have you gone back to look at the price increases? This is what's disturbing.

Great so you are going to be a mechanical engineer. You go to a good university in a cheap state like The University of Texas at Austin. Your cost is going to be over $22,000 a year. If you just get it down to tuition and books maybe you can squeeze by at $11000 a year. Now you might get out and have a good job but the question is whether we feel that our students should start their adult lives working with $40,000 in student loan debt today, plus a mortgage, car payment, etc?

We're the only developed country who does this. Most developing countries don't burden their students like this. People graduate and start working without tons of debt. They have mobility.

 

[MrPickins]

Even if you were lucky and went to a good affordable school, in state, and lived at home, it will still cost you at least $50,000 in tuition.

No. Just no.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

"The College Experience"

How can a young person not have that?!

Also, how do you convince a 17 year old that she/he should go to a trade school when "everyone else is going to college"?

These are pressures that are tough for a young one and adults aren't helping when they say you have "no future without going to college".

You have another problem and that is that cooking schools and the like are expensive. So you don't save any money there. Cooking schools are actually 30% more expensive than going to a regular university on average. I use this example since I have friends that are cooks in Europe and the idea of spending $60,000 to become a cook is just insane.

Some are, you're quite right. I also have a problem with many cooking school's format but, there are State funded culinary programs out there that are excellent. As with any school, you have to do your homework.

Right now for trade schools, the best bang for your buck is aircraft structural repair and inspection. It IS fairly expensive but, a two year program can get you $40/hr out of the gate and there are jobs all over the U.S. If I was a kid again, that's what I'd do.

 

[doubledeluxe]

No. Just no.

Even a cheap school like Sacramento State would cost you $8,438 a year for just books and tuition. So tell me again how I'm wrong?

60% of students graduate in 6 years. Only 40% do it in 4 years.

Take that number and multiply it out.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

How long ago did you graduate? Have you gone back to look at the price increases? This is what's disturbing.

Great so you are going to be a mechanical engineer. You go to a good university in a cheap state like The University of Texas at Austin. Your cost is going to be over $22,000 a year. If you just get it down to tuition and books maybe you can squeeze by at $11000 a year. Now you might get out and have a good job but the question is whether we feel that our students should start their adult lives working with $40,000 in student loan debt today, plus a mortgage, car payment, etc?

We're the only developed country who does this. Most developing countries don't burden their students like this. People graduate and start working without tons of debt. They have mobility.

I squeezed by just fine (graduated 2010) in Texas no less, first 2 years were out of a community college. I'm not quite sure where you get those tuition prices, but there are plenty of other universities in the state of Texas to consider. Again, I graduated with <$20k total. it's not exactly rocket science.

It's this whole notion of "I must go to X school or I won't succeed in life!" that fucks a lot of things up. So that school can jack up their prices because of this artificial inflation.

 

[MrPickins]

Great so you are going to be a mechanical engineer. You go to a good university in a cheap state like The University of Texas at Austin. Your cost is going to be over $22,000 a year. If you just get it down to tuition and books maybe you can squeeze by at $11000 a year.

That can be reduced quite a bit by doing pre-reqs in community college and transferring for the final 2 years.