College tuition

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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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I find your cost estimates unreasonably low. Granted, costs are different from state-to-state but yours are low.

I just packed my kid off to college earlier this year. Instate tuition is listed at +$22K. A bit cheaper if the parents happen to live nearby thus negating rent (I would argue food cost doesn't change. You're still going to eat: You can pay the $ to the grocery store or the univ. Doesn't matter.)

http://financialaid.ncsu.edu/cost-of-attendance/cost-of-attendance-undergraduate-students/

I grew up and went to college in FL. Their costs are about the same (+$21K for instate): http://financialaid.fsu.edu/apply/cost_ungrad.html

Fern

Any one can pay $15-30K for a 4 years education also

Example:
Mass - In state
CC $700/yr
State University $900/yr
University of Mass $1800/yr

One can get an engineering degree out of the UMass system then for under $10K and get a job for $40-60K
-snip-

-snip-
it's VERY easy to go to a state school and walk out with:
-Debt of Approx 10-30k depending on the school. Mine was ~$20k total
 

doubledeluxe

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2014
1,074
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That can be reduced quite a bit by doing pre-reqs in community college and transferring for the final 2 years.

Yes it can. However even community colleges have jacked up their prices quite a bit. You are right though. This takes away from the college experience though which is a rather huge part of our culture. A 17 year old doesn't really make the best decisions and we allow them to accrue massive debt.

We don't really have a connection between education and employment anymore. If you go and spend 6 years getting an aeronautical engineering degree you can't be sure on what will happen when you're done.
 

doubledeluxe

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2014
1,074
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I squeezed by just fine (graduated 2010) in Texas no less, first 2 years were out of a community college. I'm not quite sure where you get those tuition prices, but there are plenty of other universities in the state of Texas to consider. Again, I graduated with <$20k total. it's not exactly rocket science.

It's this whole notion of "I must go to X school or I won't succeed in life!" that fucks a lot of things up. So that school can jack up their prices because of this artificial inflation.

You can find tuition prices quite easily. I'm mostly just grabbing tuition and book costs.

It's a conundrum since you can pick a good school and pay a lot (Austin is a good school) or pick a bad school and pay even more. Look at some of these Christian Universities around the country for example. I picked Sacramento State above since it's an average school. It's nothing fancy, not private, not even considered expensive, but it really adds up.

You can easily look up historical tuition prices. What people today are experiencing going to college today is different than 5 years ago, vastly different than 10 years ago, and for those who might have graduated 20-25 years ago and maybe even sending kids off to college today it's like a different world.
 

doubledeluxe

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2014
1,074
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http://www.statisticbrain.com/average-cost-of-college-tuition/

This might help. I just googled it 2 seconds ago. So a parent helping a kid go to college today might have paid a tiny fraction of what the cost is today. You can look at inflation and try to offset some of those perceived increases. What really nails you though is salaries for kids out of college. They might make $45,000 a year. Salaries were increasing throughout I think the 1990s and right before the great recession I believe it peaked at a median of like $80,000. It's taken a nosedive.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,697
8,099
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You can find tuition prices quite easily. I'm mostly just grabbing tuition and book costs.

It's a conundrum since you can pick a good school and pay a lot (Austin is a good school) or pick a bad school and pay even more. Look at some of these Christian Universities around the country for example. I picked Sacramento State above since it's an average school. It's nothing fancy, not private, not even considered expensive, but it really adds up.

You can easily look up historical tuition prices. What people today are experiencing going to college today is different than 5 years ago, vastly different than 10 years ago, and for those who might have graduated 20-25 years ago and maybe even sending kids off to college today it's like a different world.
Prices today are vastly different than 15 years ago for sure.

Again, it all comes down to saddling people with massive debt that they can't discharge in bankruptcy, which I believe only I have mentioned so far.

Charge up $50k in credit card debt from buying clothes, tech, and going out to eat: just wipe it clean with bankruptcy.

Take out loans to "better yourself" with education, a net positive for society as a whole: sorry, Jack, you'll be paying that off 'til you die.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0
Don't want to get involved with what is worth what. But I thought that it might be useful to point out that:

According to the 2012 Tuition Discounting Study published by the National Association of College and University Business Officers (NACUBO), 87% of entering freshmen in the fall of 2012 at the 383 private colleges in the study received institutional grants and/or scholarships. On average a student received a 44% discount off of the published tuition...

So if you take anything away from this, it’s that a college’s sticker price tells you little about what you can expect to pay and how much the college will receive in net tuition revenue.

Only One in Three Full-Time Students Pays Full Tuition
For the average full-time student, net tuition – which subtracts grants and tax-based aid – is less than half of the published price at private nonprofit four-year schools and less than a third of the published price at the typical public four-year institution.

Not to mention other alternatives, like the GI Bill, that paid for one of my degrees...

Uno
 

uclabachelor

Senior member
Nov 9, 2009
448
0
71
You can always go to community college for GEs and transfer to a GOOD university the last two years for your core degree classes. That alone will cut out expenses by half.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,912
136
Even though most folks agree a college degree is currently a bad investment (inb4 all the engineering/hard science naysayers) there is STILL tremendous pressure on 'youts' by teachers, parents and, peers to go to college. No one is 'forced' to go but, no one tries to present a viable alternative either. Yout's themselves tend to look at college as a 'growing up' phase. It's absurd and definitely a 'first world problem.'

If most people agree with that most people are wrong. A college degree, regardless of major, is generally an excellent investment.

This relationship can break down at the extreme ends of the least marketable degrees at the most expensive colleges, but a four year degree is an excellent investment.
 

doubledeluxe

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2014
1,074
1
0
Don't want to get involved with what is worth what. But I thought that it might be useful to point out that:



Only One in Three Full-Time Students Pays Full Tuition


Not to mention other alternatives, like the GI Bill, that paid for one of my degrees...

Uno

This is interesting. What I have seen with family friends is that a University has a published $25,000 tuition rate and immediately offers a $5000 grant for "academic excellence" even if the student has a 2.0 GPA. It's like bait. So I'm not sure what to pull from your articles.

I got a tax credit when I was a student but getting a $1000 off isn't really that big a deal in the scheme of things.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,912
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You can always go to community college for GEs and transfer to a GOOD university the last two years for your core degree classes. That alone will cut out expenses by half.

That's what I did for undergrad. My tuition costs were approximately $1,000/year. I had to pay living expenses and all, but if you just count tuition expenses I actually made money going to undergrad. (Go go adult student financial aid!)

I made a shitload of money going to grad school. Thanks, GI Bill.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,912
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I find your cost estimates unreasonably low. Granted, costs are different from state-to-state but yours are low.

I just packed my kid off to college earlier this year. Instate tuition is listed at +$22K. A bit cheaper if the parents happen to live nearby thus negating rent (I would argue food cost doesn't change. You're still going to eat: You can pay the $ to the grocery store or the univ. Doesn't matter.)

http://financialaid.ncsu.edu/cost-of-attendance/cost-of-attendance-undergraduate-students/

I grew up and went to college in FL. Their costs are about the same (+$21K for instate): http://financialaid.fsu.edu/apply/cost_ungrad.html

Fern

That's not tuition, that's total expenses including living expenses. Tuition is listed as $8,500. I have always found listing living costs to be problematic as you have to pay rent no matter if you're going to college or not.
 

holden j caufield

Diamond Member
Dec 30, 1999
6,324
10
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I know a few people that teach high school and they all tell me it's not worth it for over half the kids, and this is in affluent schools. There is no way a teacher, counselor, or admin will tell a high school student not to shoot for college. If it gets around that you told a kid not to aim for college like it's some holy grail you're in trouble.

College is high school 2.0 for most people except you get to sleep in later and hang out with no curfew. There is nothing that college teaches you that you can't learn from google, youtube, lynda, online tutorials etc. Except for access to expensive machines in certain disciplines you can learn everything online in 1/1000 the time at 1/1000 (or free) the cost.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Don't want to get involved with what is worth what. But I thought that it might be useful to point out that:

According to the 2012 Tuition Discounting Study published by the National Association of College and University Business Officers (NACUBO), 87% of entering freshmen in the fall of 2012 at the 383 private colleges in the study received institutional grants and/or scholarships. On average a student received a 44% discount off of the published tuition...

So if you take anything away from this, it’s that a college’s sticker price tells you little about what you can expect to pay and how much the college will receive in net tuition revenue.

Look close. The above is for private colleges. I checked out a number of those the last few years and private college tuition is usually the same, or higher, than out-of-state tuition at a public university. I.e., you're still paying a ton of $ even at a 50% discount.


For the average full-time student, net tuition – which subtracts grants and tax-based aid – is less than half of the published price at private nonprofit four-year schools and less than a third of the published price at the typical public four-year institution.

Tuition is actually less than a 1/3 of the published price? I don't believe that. I've gone through dozens of tuition calculators and my wife and I sifted through dozens of grant and scholarship programs. I ain't buying it. High dollar grants/scholarships are incredibly limited. Most grants are peanuts. I don't WTH "tax-based aid" is.

Fern
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
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If most people agree with that most people are wrong. A college degree, regardless of major, is generally an excellent investment.

This relationship can break down at the extreme ends of the least marketable degrees at the most expensive colleges, but a four year degree is an excellent investment.

How many facts of under employment, rising student debt and, lower graduation rates do you need to be beat over the head with? I think the concept of a college degree currently being a bad investment gets such a strident response is because it hits at the heart of 'the American dream.'

The American dream (as I understand the ATOT version) is to go to a 'good' school and get a degree in a 'good' field while making friends and contacts among the 1%. Whenever possible, you get moms and pops to pay for it. At the very least, you do your best to live at home for as long as possible. Then, you graduate and take a high paying job doing something you hate for people you hate while investing every nickel so that you can retire at 45 and begin life.

Anybody else have a problem with that? Anybody else have a problem with so many thinking this is a good plan?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
That's not tuition, that's total expenses including living expenses. Tuition is listed as $8,500. I have always found listing living costs to be problematic as you have to pay rent no matter if you're going to college or not.


What's the fvcking difference? It's all costs to go to college.

It doesn't matter that you have living costs whether you're in college or not. When you're in college you're not working (most don't, some have low paying part time jobs that don't provide much more than spending money) and thus taking out a loan for these expenses.

I think it pretty clear from the OP's post he's referring to the total costs of college and not limiting it to just tuition. If he thinks tuition alone costs $120k for 4.5 years I'll then be disagreeing with him.

Fern
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,912
136
How many facts of under employment, rising student debt and, lower graduation rates do you need to be beat over the head with? I think the concept of a college degree currently being a bad investment gets such a strident response is because it hits at the heart of 'the American dream.'

The American dream (as I understand the ATOT version) is to go to a 'good' school and get a degree in a 'good' field while making friends and contacts among the 1%. Whenever possible, you get moms and pops to pay for it. At the very least, you do your best to live at home for as long as possible. Then, you graduate and take a high paying job doing something you hate for people you hate while investing every nickel so that you can retire at 45 and begin life.

Anybody else have a problem with that? Anybody else have a problem with so many thinking this is a good plan?

I would be content with a study that says a college degree is a bad investment for the average student.

There are certainly SOME situations where a degree is a bad idea, and when you add in the risk of not graduating there are some cohorts that should think twice before attending, but for the average person who graduates they are better off than those who did not go.

Here is an article that I think is reasonably friendly to your position, yet even there they admit that a college degree is a good investment for the average person.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs.../college-is-worth-it-if-you-graduate-on-time/
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,912
136
What's the fvcking difference? It's all costs to go to college.

It doesn't matter that you have living costs whether you're in college or not. When you're in college you're not working (most don't, some have low paying part time jobs that don't provide much more than spending money) and thus taking out a loan for these expenses.

I think it pretty clear from the OP's post he's referring to the total costs of college and not limiting it to just tuition. If he thinks tuition alone costs $120k for 4.5 years I'll then be disagreeing with him.

Fern

I think the difference is exactly that you're paying rent no matter if you go to school or not. I don't count my mortgage as a cost of my job. You seemed reluctant to count food, which should fall under the same idea.

Also, lots and lots of people work quite a bit while going to college. I worked full time for most of my undergrad degree, for example.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
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I think Mike Rowe had it right when he said; &#8220;We&#8217;re lending money we don&#8217;t have, to kids who will never be able to pay it back, for jobs that no longer exist.&#8221;
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
7,697
8,099
136
I think Mike Rowe had it right when he said; “We’re lending money we don’t have, to kids who will never be able to pay it back, for jobs that no longer exist.”
The US operates with a fiat currency, luckily. We aren't out of money.
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,346
1
0
... Tuition is actually less than a 1/3 of the published price? I don't believe that. I've gone through dozens of tuition calculators and my wife and I sifted through dozens of grant and scholarship programs. I ain't buying it. High dollar grants/scholarships are incredibly limited. Most grants are peanuts. I don't WTH "tax-based aid" is.

Fern
Collegeboard.org
What Students Actually Pay

... Despite increasing published prices, the average net tuition and fee prices that students paid after taking grant aid and tax benefits into consideration declined between 2004-05 and 2009-10 in public two-year and four-year institutions and in private nonprofit four-year institutions.

Full-time students enrolled in private nonprofit institutions receive an average of about $18,870 in grant aid and federal tax benefits to help them pay for college. Average aid is about $6,110 at public four-year institutions and about $5,090 at public two-year colleges.

In 2011-12, full-time dependent students from the lowest income quartile paid average net tuition and fees, after grant aid, of $11,300 in the for-profit sector, compared to $2,530 at the lowest price and $9,860 at the highest-price nonprofit institutions.

On average, in 2011-12, full-time in-state students at public four-year universities from families with incomes below $30,000 received enough grant aid from all sources combined to cover tuition and fees and to have about $2,300 left to put toward room, board, and other expenses.
You are welcome to believe whatever you want... Likewise, you are welcome to pay whatever you want.

But if you think that all students pay the same, you would be mistaken ...

Uno
 
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doubledeluxe

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2014
1,074
1
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I think the difference is exactly that you're paying rent no matter if you go to school or not. I don't count my mortgage as a cost of my job. You seemed reluctant to count food, which should fall under the same idea.

Also, lots and lots of people work quite a bit while going to college. I worked full time for most of my undergrad degree, for example.

I lived at home. I didn't pay rent until I went away to school. Then in Europe it wasn't a big deal paying my $400 a month since I had no school costs. I even got paid to go to University. A small stipend to cover books. In CA though I lived in a slum paying $625 a month plus needed a car, health insurance and school costs.

So I'd argue that you can live at home and work initially but unless you live next to the exact school you get into and that's good for your major that's an additional cost for education. Also that rent, food, books, and tuition cannot be offset by working. At $10 an hour it's just not happening.
 
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Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
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I think the difference is exactly that you're paying rent no matter if you go to school or not. I don't count my mortgage as a cost of my job. You seemed reluctant to count food, which should fall under the same idea.

Also, lots and lots of people work quite a bit while going to college. I worked full time for most of my undergrad degree, for example.

I agree. The only difference I can see is if rent is higher in the area surrounding the university compared to where you would have lived otherwise.

IMO, parents and their kids need to get serious about college. Its not just "the next step" after the HS graduation robe is hung in the closet. So many kids mindlessly stroll off to college because that is what everyone else does. Too many do not have a clue what they want to do which is why half the university is either undeclared or premed.

I had a general clue what I wanted to do, but I am guilty of not taking it completely seriously. I think I would have been better served taking a few years to do volunteer work, internships, job shadowing, and normal work.

College should be for those that have a passion for a particular area and want to better themselves. IMO, its turned into an extension of childhood. A place where 18-22 yo's go off to delay growing up and facing the world.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
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I think I would have been better served taking a few years to do volunteer work, internships, job shadowing, and normal work.

OR, pick up a trade. Most trade schools are two years or less. I don't know why so many folks think they have to choose one or the other. Why can't you go to a trade school, make some money and, THEN go to college? Of course, it does put a crimp in that whole "all my friends are going to college," "finding yourself" and, retiring at 45 thing. :biggrin:
 

Belegost

Golden Member
Feb 20, 2001
1,807
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81
A discussion about "college" tuition like this is a bit silly when the comparisons are between very different classes of institution with wildly different value propositions. It's much better to talk about specific types of colleges, my (incomplete I'm sure) list:

Private Universities:
These split two ways, on one hand are the Ivy League and other big reputation schools. Stanford, Princeton, Cornell, etc. These are expensive schools 40-100K/year tuition, but generally provide a reputation that adds to a resume, especially if you major in an area the school is respected for (eg Engineering at Stanford)

The other half is a lot of smaller places, liberal art schools, and half unheard of "tech" universities. Overall my opinion is that these are not much better than the private "colleges" discussed below, the key divide is the target market, and availability of campus housing. Frequently these are purely pedagogical institutions with no research.

Public Universities
These are generally financial bargains (provided you pick a reasonable major, go into the history of 3rd century sea shanties and all bets are off) Most fall into the average state school category, relatively inexpensive, not particularly reputed for anything, and providing a broad set of majors - costs(not including housing, eskimo makes a valid point, housing has to be paid for no matter what) for 4-5 years should stay under 40K.

There is also a good number of highly reputable state universities, such as UC Berkeley, UCLA, Georgia Tech, UCUI that provide education quality in line with top private universities at a discount price. The catch is the competitiveness to get in, for majors one of these schools is well known for expect several thousand applicants for each seat open. Even so these schools will generally be under 60K for 4-5 years for in-state. If you're out of state prepare to pay private university-like prices, and unless it's one of the really top schools, it's probably not worth it over an in-state option.

Community Colleges
These are a good financial decision for effectively everyone. Even if you go to trade school, a journeyman with an AA in business or accounting will have the fast track to move into supervisor and management positions. Using a CC to do the first couple years of undergraduate work in a BA/BS is a good move, it's a low risk way for a student to determine their ability to succeed in college work, smaller class sizes generally give better instruction, and even with higher tuition the price is low. Looking around it seems that most places are still under 1K/year for in-state tuition.

These are also an excellent backdoor into the top-tier public universities, saving even more money (especially useful if you're out of state) and getting a second shot at a seat, generally with less competition. (disclaimer: I attended a CC before transferring to UCSD for my undergraduate and graduate degrees. I took a total of 24K in loans, all for my undergrad work.)

Private "Colleges"
These are the "colleges" I have a burning hate for. The "tech" and "art" schools that advertise on midday cable, promising quick degree programs with lots of connections to industry. In my experience these places are uniformly scams. I have personally seen multiple horror stories, a friend's daughter who spent 18 months and 40K getting a basic nursing education to find out at the end the school wouldn't release her records for certification without a $5K certification fee. Another friend I begged repeatedly not to join a small "graphic design" school that promised a quick AA and easy placement - 4 years later he has a BA with suspect accreditation and a finally job making 23K/year; after 2 years of temp jobs and unemployment. Oh, and a mere 73K in loans. These places and the people who profit from them can go burn.

And this is without the discussion of major, which makes a huge difference in prospects and wages after school.

I will say that I believe the recent explosion in tuition costs is concerning, but on average the gain in salary with a bachelor's is worth significantly more than the cost of the loans (including interest) over the working lifetime, when compared to only a HS degree. I have not seen good data comparing wages of trade school completion; which is a shame, it would give solid numbers.

I did look at a list of Skilled and Trade positions that have common industry wages above 80K/year (median income with a bachelor degree is ~70K/year, but the website didn't allow for 70K/year cutoff) The one thing I note is that nearly all of those are management positions, and several are highly unlikely to get into without a degree, for instance Senior Engineer - most companies I've seen apply that title for starting with PhD, MS +1-2 years, BS +3-5 years experience, and I have never met one without a degree less than 50. To me this suggests that trade school will definitely do better than HS only, but not as well as a degree for the early part of the career, potentially catching up after 10 years of experience. If anyone has hard data on median income for those completing trade school I would be interested in seeing it.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,484
3,602
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Even though most folks agree a college degree is currently a bad investment

I realize these are averages but the average 4-year college degree holder still makes about $1m more in life time earnings and the average student loan dept for that 4 year degree is just over $30k.

So perhaps I missed the memo but when did an average return of 30x your investment cost become a bad investment?
 
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