College tuition

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I've been thinking about college education in terms of buying computer parts. It's easy for a prospective buyer to read a few reviews, forum posts and, media hype and come away with an idea of what the "best" system is. The problem with this perspective is not everyone (or, their parents) can afford a college education at a top tier school. Moreover, most people don't actually have a need for the capabilities (read connections) of a top tier school. So, now we have a whole host of mid range opportunities with upgrade paths (read "good" degrees) that approach the performance, if not the style, of top tier schools with endless peer and media pressure to upgrade your education for the "best" experience.

What this actually accomplishes is vastly more money spent when "good enough" is the wisest course. There's an underlying viewpoint that says, if you don't get the best right now, you'll be left behind. It isn't true with computers and it isn't true with education. I suspect that most people would be better served by an education that meets their immediate goals (like an app on their smart phone) than a full tower with an i7 extreme (read 4 year Ivy League). I apologize for stretching the metaphor but, I've been searching for a way to better communicate my thoughts to the geeks here.

 

[nickqt]

I realize these are averages but the average 4-year college degree holder still makes about $1m more in life time earnings and the average student loan dept for that 4 year degree is just over $30k.

So perhaps I missed the memo but when did an average return of 30x your investment cost become a bad investment?

Because the averages that you quote are just that - averages. Someone from an Ivy gets recruited to go be a criminal on Wall St. and earns 500x what someone from a state school earns, and that gets averaged in. So, averages can be a useful tool, but with wages stagnating for the past 30 years, are we sure we're not just repeating old numbers and conventional wisdom that is now outdated?

Not everyone has what it takes (not just intelligence, but patience, desire, etc) to go to college, but if someone does, they should be able to find a nearly-free way to get that education. It may not be valued as high as some oligarch's kid who goes to an Ivy, but at least they'll have the a degree (which is becoming the new HS diploma) and that shows that they are capable of learning new things and performing menial tasks and time management, which is what a diploma really represents, anyway.

A diploma, ultimately, means that someone was capable enough to learn a subject and become at least somewhat adept if not an expert in that subject. Sure, degrees in underwater basket weaving aren't particularly useful, but most degrees represent someone showing intelligence and the ability to work under pressure while learning something brand new. Which is why it's kind of the "gold standard" of a culture to go to college rather than just go to a trade school or whatever.

I also believe that we should have trade schools just like colleges that train people to actually do the things that actually need to be done here. The whole profit system/paying administrators huge sums of money is literally just a drain on society.

 

[doubledeluxe]

I realize these are averages but the average 4-year college degree holder still makes about $1m more in life time earnings and the average student loan dept for that 4 year degree is just over $30k.

So perhaps I missed the memo but when did an average return of 30x your investment cost become a bad investment?

They say the average for a HS graduate is $1.3m in their lifetime and a Bachelor is $2.3m. Clearly you are correct.

I'm arguing that the way the rest of the developed world and parts of the developing world do things is better since you do not spend the first 10 years of your working life in heavy debt. We setup our youth to be indentured servants.

Is it good for the country to have over a trillion dollars in student loan debt out there on top of credit card debt and medical debt and all the other debt out there?

Plus you really do need to look at graduation rates, salary stagnation, and degree farms. We have a conflict of interest in the industry. They're more concerned about making money than the students making money or getting educated.

 

[doubledeluxe]

The graduation rate for students starting a 4 year degree is 59% within 6 years. It's pretty crummy isn't it?

 

[Exterous]

are we sure we're not just repeating old numbers and conventional wisdom that is now outdated?

Well there are a number of fairly recent stats the continue to reinforce the notion that a college degree is a good investment. The first would be unemployment rate:
Recent college grad: 7.5%
Recent HS grad: 17.8%
All HS: 11.8%
All 4 year grad: 5.1%

*It is important to note that the recent college and recent HS grad use the same 22-26 age bracket so this isn't comparing a 26 year old with a 17 year old's first job out of HS

All recent 4-year grad majors but Architecture (even art and drama) are below the Experienced HS grad unemployment rate

Recent college grad salary: $37,000
Experienced HS salary: $36,000
Recent HS salary: $24,000

If you look at the appendices they break it down by major so you can see that most of the recent degrees for ages 22-26 are close to an experienced HS degree holder age 34-54. ALL of the experienced degree holders surpass an experienced HS worker

Picking the lowest salary of an experienced degree holder (which is, sadly, education) and running it for 30 years gives a rough 10x return on investment vs an experienced HS degree holder

https://cew.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/HardTimes2015-Report.pdf

So while I do agree that we need to do a better job training for the trades and that not everyone needs to go to college a college education is still quite far from being a bad investment unless you are irresponsible about how you go about getting one

 

[doubledeluxe]

We need to end the debate on whether an education is worth it. That much is obvious. However spending a down payment on a house on it is hurting our youth unless you believe in a debtors society.

 

[Genx87]

It's really simple. Do you guys think that our system makes sense and is good for the country?

1. In the US you can get a mediocre education with a $35,000 job waiting for you on the other end if you're lucky, and still pay $120,000 for a 4.5 year degree. Even if you were lucky and went to a good affordable school, in state, and lived at home, it will still cost you at least $50,000 in tuition.

2. In Europe you can pretty much get your education for free.

3. In South America it might cost you a couple thousand dollars a year for a good public university or you might pay quite a bit for your private school education but if you do you'll be studying with the kids of ambassadors and rich business people and at least make lots of contacts. It'll still be less than the $100k people are paying today. On top of that, with my friends at least, there are a lot of waiver programs that negate 100% of your education costs as long as you work in the country and don't just take your education and run.

I am starting to feel like we're heading in the opposite direction of everyone else. Am I missing the big picture? Why would you want your population to be heavily in debt or uneducated unless your motivation is not in the best interests of the people? How can our politicians talk about how great our economy has improved, how unemployment is really low, about GDP, but not address this ginormous problem?

I'm seeing too many schools with close to 100% acceptance rates, low graduation rates, low job prospects, but $100k costs. Why is this even legal? I'm also seeing tuition hikes that are approaching 300% in the last 10 or so years. Look at the CSU system for example. Look at community college tuition rates. Look at the UC system.

Up until a few days ago I thought it was only lawyers and doctors taking on 6 figure debt but from the looks of it, just about anyone who wants a degree today, and doesn't have the parents paying for it, will have to take on a very heavy burden.

Eh our university system is considered the best in the world. People from all over the world flock here to learn.

 

[Genx87]

The graduation rate for students starting a 4 year degree is 59% within 6 years. It's pretty crummy isn't it?

That depends on how we want to run our university system. Do we want to educate people and make them better more well rounded students? Or do we want to shit out a 100% graduation rate and turn it into our public K-12 system?

I'd take a more rigorous program that weeds out people over a lower the bar program any day of the week. A 4 year degree should be earned. Not given away.

 

[Genx87]

We need to end the debate on whether an education is worth it. That much is obvious. However spending a down payment on a house on it is hurting our youth unless you believe in a debtors society.

A down payment on a house for a lifetime of higher earnings isn't worth it? I can see a valid debate about paying for the entire house. But a down payment? In 2014 the avg student debt approached 30,000. This is a soul crushing number? New cars cost more and provide far less return on investment.

 

[Exterous]

We need to end the debate on whether an education is worth it. That much is obvious. However spending a down payment on a house on it is hurting our youth unless you believe in a debtors society.

Given the number of people trying to say college is a bad investment I think its likely the debate will continue.

I don't believe in a free or heavily subsidized education at the college level right now for the US. Why? Because studies show people don't appreciate what they don't pay or work for. Personally I believe this is a relatively new trend in the US due to how kids are raised today. The number of parents who told my wife that a High School education wasn't important was mind blowing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/15/education/parents-financial-support-linked-to-college-grades.html?_r=0

I do, however, think there is a better balance point and its not all about schools just trying to make money. Over the last 12 years the University of Michigan has seen a 50% drop in relative state funding. The trend does seem to be reversing as the economy recovers though. It is my hope that tuition prices stabilize as state funding increases

 

[child of wonder]

The trick is getting a REAL education in a field of study for a reasonable price that actually results in a decent paying job. Don't go to ITT Tech, The Art Institute, or any of the other fake schools. Go to a local technical college or state university, network with professionals already in your field, try to gain work experience while you attend school, and pursue your career with a passion (which doesn't have to mean long hours, just be passionate about what you do).

I graduated with an Associate's Degree in IT in December of 2005. While I was in school, I managed a small business's IT equipment (PCs, laptops, 2 Linux email/web/file servers) to get experience. My first job out of school I was paid $40k and got on the virtualization bandwagon right away. I've set up a lab at home to play with the technology I work with, pursued certifications, and pushed my limits both professionally and personally. As a result, I've averaged an increase in pay of 18.5% per year ever since I started my career.

My total student loan debt was $14k, about half of which was extra money we took to live on since my wife and I already had 2 kids and we needed the extra money. I paid off my student loan in less than 5 years.

College isn't a guarantee for success, it's an investment in yourself and should be treated as such.

 

[doubledeluxe]

A down payment on a house for a lifetime of higher earnings isn't worth it? I can see a valid debate about paying for the entire house. But a down payment? In 2014 the avg student debt approached 30,000. This is a soul crushing number? New cars cost more and provide far less return on investment.

That might be average debt but the cist us much higher. Rising rapidly too.

I studied in 2 countries. Tell me why I wouldn't get my masters in Europe and do my research in the USA where they pay me?

This forum is mostly stem majors. I was making 6 figures within my first year after graduation. However my debt was low. How do we justify someone making $35k-$45k paying $575-$1000 a month in student loan debt for 10 years? Obviously getting an education is important but the costs are extreme compared to the rest of the world.

 

[Genx87]

That might be average debt but the cist us much higher. Rising rapidly too.

I studied in 2 countries. Tell me why I wouldn't get my masters in Europe and do my research in the USA where they pay me?

This forum is mostly stem majors. I was making 6 figures within my first year after graduation. However my debt was low. How do we justify someone making $35k-$45k paying $575-$1000 a month in student loan debt for 10 years? Obviously getting an education is important but the costs are extreme compared to the rest of the world.

You are basing your argument on extremes. For a 1000\month student loan that would require student debt upon graduation to be far higher than the avg. The avg student loan payment is ~250 dollars\month. 75th percentile is ~300. That is very easily affordable for people who are within that salary range. For someone to have a 1000 or even a 575\month student loan payment would put them literally in the 1%. And for those people. I don't know what to tell you. If they incurred 100,000+ in student loan debt for a 35-45k\year job. They are an effing moron.

 

[doubledeluxe]

OK I'm trying to do two things at once. Show debt and show cost. I'm clearly not making myself clear. Sorry.

Tuition and books costs $50,000. Whether you borrow less or not it still costs that.

I ended up with an acceptable amount of debt but I did that by living in the slums. Compared to Europe where I lived in the center of a European capital and didn't just eat ramen.

Some of us also went to grad school. Masters degrees cost money. You're right though that income should justify it but unlike maybe you and me most people who finish university make around what? $40k? Better than $25k but it cost money to go to school. Someone paid for it. Some work, some debt, some living in the slums. It happened.

 

[JockoJohnson]

Prices today are vastly different than 15 years ago for sure.

Again, it all comes down to saddling people with massive debt that they can't discharge in bankruptcy, which I believe only I have mentioned so far.

Charge up $50k in credit card debt from buying clothes, tech, and going out to eat: just wipe it clean with bankruptcy.

Take out loans to "better yourself" with education, a net positive for society as a whole: sorry, Jack, you'll be paying that off 'til you die.

You keep bringing it up like it is a legitimate comparison. Student loan interest rates are low compared to credit cards. I am fine with jacking up student loan interest rates to 20% and then allowing students to file bankruptcy. Until then, no bankruptcy for them. They are already paying a low interest rate for money borrowed.

 

[radhak]

Any one can pay $15-30K for a 4 years education also

Example:
Mass - In state
CC $700/yr
State University $900/yr
University of Mass $1800/yr

One can get an engineering degree out of the UMass system then for under $10K and get a job for $40-60K

The problem is that people may not want to go in-state or choose to go to a fancier private college.

You want out of state.
Go move to the desired state, establish residence for 2-3 years and then go to school

You want Private
Be prepared to pay for the priviledge

First of all, that's a very simplistic view of a complex problem. The only people capable of moving to a different state just for tuition will be those that have some financial buffer of doing so - savings, family contributing, insanely nice job, etc. Families struggling where they already live are not going to magically get better by moving - more likely, they are gonna get buried.

Secondly, where are you getting those figures? Univ Of Mass, in-state seems to be around $14,000 per year! I did not bother checking for the other numbers in your post, but this page gives average in-state tuition for all states, and the lowest is $4600+ per year in WY.

That said, I agree with the spirit of your post - that not all college education in the US is as expensive as the OP stated. One can complete a 4-year under-grad in majority number of states for less than $40,000 in tuition, and in a dozen states for half that.

Actually, tuition in the top 5 expensive states is around $70k for 4 years, and if with no help in grants, that could be a burden; but figures like $120k seem unduly inflated to make a point. If the point is that college does not benefit everybody equitably, then taken; but that's true of everything in life, isn't it?

 

[Genx87]

OK I'm trying to do two things at once. Show debt and show cost. I'm clearly not making myself clear. Sorry.

Tuition and books costs $50,000. Whether you borrow less or not it still costs that.

I ended up with an acceptable amount of debt but I did that by living in the slums. Compared to Europe where I lived in the center of a European capital and didn't just eat ramen.

Some of us also went to grad school. Masters degrees cost money. You're right though that income should justify it but unlike maybe you and me most people who finish university make around what? $40k? Better than $25k but it cost money to go to school. Someone paid for it. Some work, some debt, some living in the slums. It happened.

Assuming total costs for an avg student is 50,000 over the course of getting a 4 year degree. I haven't looked. Is this outrageous given the avg difference in pay between high school grad vs college grad over the life of the student? It appears being in possession of a 4 year degree will double the earning potential for an avg person.

The avg college grad in 2014 made 42K out of school. The avg high school graduate made 25K. They also had a much lower unemployment rate and more earning potential going forward compared to their high school peers.

 

[glenn1]

It's really simple. Do you guys think that our system makes sense and is good for the country?

1. In the US you can get a mediocre education with a $35,000 job waiting for you on the other end if you're lucky, and still pay $120,000 for a 4.5 year degree. Even if you were lucky and went to a good affordable school, in state, and lived at home, it will still cost you at least $50,000 in tuition.

2. In Europe you can pretty much get your education for free.

3. In South America it might cost you a couple thousand dollars a year for a good public university or you might pay quite a bit for your private school education but if you do you'll be studying with the kids of ambassadors and rich business people and at least make lots of contacts. It'll still be less than the $100k people are paying today. On top of that, with my friends at least, there are a lot of waiver programs that negate 100% of your education costs as long as you work in the country and don't just take your education and run.

I am starting to feel like we're heading in the opposite direction of everyone else. Am I missing the big picture? Why would you want your population to be heavily in debt or uneducated unless your motivation is not in the best interests of the people? How can our politicians talk about how great our economy has improved, how unemployment is really low, about GDP, but not address this ginormous problem?

I'm seeing too many schools with close to 100% acceptance rates, low graduation rates, low job prospects, but $100k costs. Why is this even legal? I'm also seeing tuition hikes that are approaching 300% in the last 10 or so years. Look at the CSU system for example. Look at community college tuition rates. Look at the UC system.

Up until a few days ago I thought it was only lawyers and doctors taking on 6 figure debt but from the looks of it, just about anyone who wants a degree today, and doesn't have the parents paying for it, will have to take on a very heavy burden.

So OP would rather pay higher taxes in perpetuity in order to avoid a one-time expense now. No wonder places like payday lenders and rent-to-own can be so successful, you even have supposedly smart college educated people who can't do simple ROI and breakeven calculations on "free" healthcare and college provided by government. Probably the same folks who listen to the car salesperson when they say "don't worry about total costs, just focus on the monthly payments."

 

[Belegost]

OK I'm trying to do two things at once. Show debt and show cost. I'm clearly not making myself clear. Sorry.

Tuition and books costs $50,000. Whether you borrow less or not it still costs that.

I ended up with an acceptable amount of debt but I did that by living in the slums. Compared to Europe where I lived in the center of a European capital and didn't just eat ramen.

Some of us also went to grad school. Masters degrees cost money. You're right though that income should justify it but unlike maybe you and me most people who finish university make around what? $40k? Better than $25k but it cost money to go to school. Someone paid for it. Some work, some debt, some living in the slums. It happened.

No, most people finishing a Bachelor's don't make around $40K, it's $50K at the median (and for those who are unaware, the median is the point where 50% of the people make more, and 50% make less, so please don't talk about Wall St. people making 500x normal it's not applicable to the median)

Compare that to $31K for HS only, and $40K for an associates (all these are for 25+, so the HS wage is AFTER the first 6-7 years gaining experience.) Student loans are paid off over 10 years, so assuming a roughly average pair of people, over that 10 years the college grad will make an extra $200K. So even if the college grad had taken (an honestly ridiculous) $100K in debt to get their BS/BA, over that 10 year period they would still come out $75K ahead of the average HS grad, after accounting for the principle and interest on $100K at 4.5% (and my loans are at 2.3% right now, so that's on the high side.)

The extra income over their lifetime is icing on the cake, 30 more years with an extra $20K, or $600K more than their HS grad peer. Of course, if we consider the more reasonable $40K in debt at the end of the bachelor's - the numbers are more skewed towards the college grad - over $150K more gross income over the 10 years of the loan period.

As for what is "right" - why shouldn't a university education be a sacrifice? This is an investment a person is making in their own self - similar to exercising, and we all know the adage "No pain, no gain." If a person is unwilling, or unable, to persevere through the trials of a college education, why should they have one?

To my mind a good part of that piece of paper at the end is an acknowledgment that the person behind it kept going where 40% of their peers didn't, that person was able to set aside immediate comfort to invest in achieving a goal. These are valuable qualities in a worker, and a citizen. I already think getting a degree is too easy, too many of my peers when I was in school spent most of their time frivolously, skating by with barely passing grades. But at least they were committed enough to finish.

I do believe the rapid inflation of tuition needs to be controlled; however, I see that the current price is still below a free market valuation which would let the cost grow until the return on investment becomes similar to other long-term investments. However, that needs to be weighed against the value of a well-educated citizenry, and the market should be skewed towards holding prices below a free market value. I would prefer this be done on the supply side; a massive investment program into the university system nationwide; more funding for expanding state universities and community colleges; and more systems for helping relieve debt through public service after graduation - I would be more than willing to spend 3 nights a week volunteering at a CC in return for amounts forgiven on my loan principle every quarter.

 

[doubledeluxe]

No, most people finishing a Bachelor's don't make around $40K, it's $50K at the median (and for those who are unaware, the median is the point where 50% of the people make more, and 50% make less, so please don't talk about Wall St. people making 500x normal it's not applicable to the median)

Compare that to $31K for HS only, and $40K for an associates (all these are for 25+, so the HS wage is AFTER the first 6-7 years gaining experience.) Student loans are paid off over 10 years, so assuming a roughly average pair of people, over that 10 years the college grad will make an extra $200K. So even if the college grad had taken (an honestly ridiculous) $100K in debt to get their BS/BA, over that 10 year period they would still come out $75K ahead of the average HS grad, after accounting for the principle and interest on $100K at 4.5% (and my loans are at 2.3% right now, so that's on the high side.)

The extra income over their lifetime is icing on the cake, 30 more years with an extra $20K, or $600K more than their HS grad peer. Of course, if we consider the more reasonable $40K in debt at the end of the bachelor's - the numbers are more skewed towards the college grad - over $150K more gross income over the 10 years of the loan period.

As for what is "right" - why shouldn't a university education be a sacrifice? This is an investment a person is making in their own self - similar to exercising, and we all know the adage "No pain, no gain." If a person is unwilling, or unable, to persevere through the trials of a college education, why should they have one?

To my mind a good part of that piece of paper at the end is an acknowledgment that the person behind it kept going where 40% of their peers didn't, that person was able to set aside immediate comfort to invest in achieving a goal. These are valuable qualities in a worker, and a citizen. I already think getting a degree is too easy, too many of my peers when I was in school spent most of their time frivolously, skating by with barely passing grades. But at least they were committed enough to finish.

I do believe the rapid inflation of tuition needs to be controlled; however, I see that the current price is still below a free market valuation which would let the cost grow until the return on investment becomes similar to other long-term investments. However, that needs to be weighed against the value of a well-educated citizenry, and the market should be skewed towards holding prices below a free market value. I would prefer this be done on the supply side; a massive investment program into the university system nationwide; more funding for expanding state universities and community colleges; and more systems for helping relieve debt through public service after graduation - I would be more than willing to spend 3 nights a week volunteering at a CC in return for amounts forgiven on my loan principle every quarter.

An opinion I can respect and from my American side I would tend to agree with you. However I've seen the other side of the fence and when you can get a PhD for free at the expense of taxes that also provide

Free healthcare
Practically free daycare
60% of your salary as pension
30 days vacation and more 3 day wknds
Paid Maternity and paternity leave
Child allowances

And provably more I haven't thought about then it's quite extraordinary. Just our healthcare costs alone screw everything up and make our higher income and lower taxes kinda a bum deal but now you're adding tuition costs that they estimate will rise substantially more. Are you ready for your kids to pay twice as much as you did because its a good sacrifice? Of course you're not.

But let's not go down the taxes rabbit hole. Plenty of math has been done on it and for most Americans they lose. Gini coefficient or what not. You need to make a lot of money to pay more in taxes than you would receive.

These costs today are not in the best interests of our students. They're in the best interests of our for profit schools. Starting your $50,000 job with tons of debt is no good. I have 2 friends who not only have a ~$350 student loan payment but due to cancer have 6 figure debt there too. It's an endless cycle of debt vs prosperity. We can complain that Americans buy too much stuff and that their financial problems are their own but when it comes to these large school and healthcare debts I would disagree.

People like to point out how great our schools are. For higher education I think we have some fantastic schools. No question about it. However given a choice between that debt and getting a degree in Europe its a much easier decision today. Max plank or $50,000?

 

[Belegost]

An opinion I can respect and from my American side I would tend to agree with you. However I've seen the other side of the fence and when you can get a PhD for free at the expense of taxes that also provide

Free healthcare
Practically free daycare
60% of your salary as pension
30 days vacation and more 3 day wknds
Paid Maternity and paternity leave
Child allowances

And provably more I haven't thought about then it's quite extraordinary. Just our healthcare costs alone screw everything up and make our higher income and lower taxes kinda a bum deal but now you're adding tuition costs that they estimate will rise substantially more. Are you ready for your kids to pay twice as much as you did because its a good sacrifice? Of course you're not.

But let's not go down the taxes rabbit hole. Plenty of math has been done on it and for most Americans they lose. Gini coefficient or what not. You need to make a lot of money to pay more in taxes than you would receive.

These costs today are not in the best interests of our students. They're in the best interests of our for profit schools. Starting your $50,000 job with tons of debt is no good. I have 2 friends who not only have a ~$350 student loan payment but due to cancer have 6 figure debt there too. It's an endless cycle of debt vs prosperity. We can complain that Americans buy too much stuff and that their financial problems are their own but when it comes to these large school and healthcare debts I would disagree.

People like to point out how great our schools are. For higher education I think we have some fantastic schools. No question about it. However given a choice between that debt and getting a degree in Europe its a much easier decision today. Max plank or $50,000?

Most of this has wandered well off the topic of college tuition. If you prefer a more socialist leaning environment that's your choice, but it's outside a discussion about college tuition.

Next anecdotes about people with student debt AND one of the most serious health issues in the modern world says very little about the state of most people. the ACA estimates around 130,000 new cases of cancer in persons under 45 in a year. The number for persons between 18 and 35 (roughly the time student loans are paid off) should be no more than half that number. So 65,000 cases per year, or 1.1M cases over the 17 year age window it would overlap with student debt. So perhaps ~2% of the population will deal with the problem of having cancer and student debt.

Let's also consider that health insurance coverage is more likely with a higher income (which we've already shown is more likely with a degree) households with income above $50K are twice as likely to be insured than households with less than $50K in income. So having a college degree makes it more likely for a person to have insurance to reduce the burden of also having cancer.

As for something like the $250 or even $400/month student loan cost for 10 years - that's a payment on a new car; is sacrificing having a new car for 10 years worth hundreds of thousands of dollars in increased income over a lifetime a worthwhile exchange? I tend to think so. It's the exchange I personally have made; I drive an 11 year old car I bought with cash instead of a much newer car with payments. When my student loans are paid off I have discussed with my wife that my reward will be the option of buying a nice car finally (though I'm more likely just to push that money into savings so I can retire around 50)

And yes, I am prepared for my kids to spend a lot more than I did for college; and I am preparing them to be able to minimize the burden through smart decisions (admittedly my kids are 9 and 11, so they're not really cognizant of the ramifications yet.) I will help them as much as I can to wisely decide the best route for their lives and whether college is the right choice, and if so how much they should dedicate to it. Realizing of course that as of 18 they will be adults capable of signing a loan contract without my consent or advice if they choose to be stupid.

 

[Sonikku]

"free"

rising tuition costs are a huge problem imo, but switching the burden of paying the cost from the students to the tax payers is just covering up the root issue that needs to be dealt with first.

there's also the issue of everyone being encouraged to go to a 4-year university regardless of their aptitude and career goals... I think we'd see higher rates of completion if things like trade schools, apprenticeships, and community colleges were more emphasized for some people.

Bob in HR doesn't necessarily need a 4-year degree in Journalism just to shuffle papers until retirement.

No what Bob needs is a 4 year degree in journalism and 4 years experience in the field for an entry level job.

 

[sm625]

To avoid recognition of the destruction of our currency wrought by the Federal Reserve, the damage has been confined to various bubbles, such as health care, education, and all manner of things not counted in the CPI. If you make even a halfway honest attempt at counting these costs in the CPI, we're looking at crushing inflation and the total destruction of the working class. But they keep on voting for more of it so what can you do?

 

[Darwin333]

Obviously allowing 18 year old kids to take on virtually limitless amounts of debt regardless of any rational method of paying it back and then making it one of the only debts not discharable via bankruptcy has absolutely nothing to do with the rising cost of education.

I wonder why Amex isn't handing out credit cards with unlimited balances to the same demographic.....

 

[who?]

There was a big fuss in the news a while back about credit card companies giving cards to college students and letting them pile up big debts. I believe that they were asked to stop.