Coming to Christ has done much good for myself and family.

[przero]

Zenmervolt - Leviticus 19:18

 

[Athanasius]

Eli Quote:

Maybe.

I think the biggest red light in my mind is that there are so many religions. They can't all be right, because they are often contradictory, at least if taken literally. So in my mind, they are all wrong by mutual exclusion.

We think like that because we are (1) westerners, (2) linear, and (3) mathematical. Nothing wrong with any of those things, but there are other perspectives with insight that are (1) non-western, (2) a line can never enter into another dimension of thought or reality than the ones it already occupies, and (3) there is the possibility that people are more real than math.

At least one thing I am suggesting by the phrase "people are more real than math" is that what is going on "inside you" may be a higher reality (or at least equivalent) than what is going on in the "objective" world. Maybe there is a light that lights all men. Maybe that light is consistent and self-authenticating. But maybe each individual only sees as much of that light as culture, history, nature, psychoneuroimmunology, and most of all conscience allows to get through. Since all of these things profoundly affect us, maybe the distortions of that light are in us, not the light itself. Consider this quote from C.S Lewis:

Hence we do not deny-- indeed we must welcome-- certain considerations that are often regarded as proofs of Naturalism. We can admit, and even insist, that Rational Thinking can be shown to be conditioned in its exercise by a natural object (the brain). It is temporarily impaired by alcohol or a blow on the head. It wanes as the brain decays and vanishes when the brain ceases to funstion. In the same way, the moral outlook of a communitycan be shown to be closely connected with its history, geographical environment, economic structure, and so forth. The moral ideas of the individual are equally related to his general situation....All this, far from presenting us with a difficulty, is exactly what we should expect.

The rational and moral element in each human mind is a point of force from the Supernatural working its way into Nature, exploiting at each point those conditions which Nature offers, repulsed where the conditions are hopeless and impeded when they are unfavourable. A man's Rational thinking is just so much of his share in eternal Reason as the state of his brain allows to become operative; it represents, so to speak, the bargain struck or the frontier fixed between reason and Nature at that particular point. A nation's moral outlook is just so much of its share in eternal Moral Wisdom as its history, economics, etc. lets through. In the same way the voice of the Announcer is just so much of a human voice as the receiving set lets through. Of course it varies with the stae of the receiving set, deteriorates as the set wears out, and vanishes altogether if I throw a brick at it.

But the Voice goes on even if the receiving set no longer hears it. There is a non-local, non-physical Word -- a Way, a Tao, a Voice, a Logos. Many different cultures have perceived this. The difference between Christianity and other beliefs systems is not in this fundamanetal truth. The difference is that Christianity asserts that this Word/Tao/Voice/Logos was fully joined to the humanity of Jesus of Nazareth. Other belief systems do not make this claim. This does not mean that other belief systems have no light. The Word lights every human (John 1). The difference between Jesus and many other belief systems is not as great as one is often led to believe, at least regarding basic morality and ethics.

One can infer that Mind created matter or that mindless matter somehow generated mind. I think the former requires a less daunting "Leap of Inference" but both choices make that leap. But that doesn't mean any of us are much of an authority on what that Mind is trying to say. When I am patient, kind, do not envy, do not boast, am not proud, am not rude, am not easily angered, keep no record of wrongs, do not delight in evil, always sympathize with the truth, am able to trust, willing to protect, full of hope, and unwaveringly persevering, then I might have some consistent success in hearing what the Voice is saying. (1 Corinthians 13:4-8a).

But I believe the Voice is real. I believe the Voice cares very much about us. I believe it either cares very much about us or is very dense. How many times do we have to crucify it before it leaves us alone? Didn't it get the message the first time?



Eli, I certainly cannot address every point you have brought up in the thread. If this post makes no sense to you, consider it chaff in the wind. After all, I already know I am weird

 

[matt426malm]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Someone with a relationship with God through salvation isn't going to be a thief, isn't going to start a holy war, and isn't going to be slave to the drags of every day life that so many others turn to drugs and alcohol to 'fix'.

An avowed atheist with at least two functioning brain cells isn't going to do any of that either because it's a bloody stupid idea to do those things, even secularly. You make some very arrogant assumptions about what people would do on their own and you are quite clearly implying that you agree with the ancient fallacy that there is no morality outside of a relationahip with God.

There are millions upon millions of people who do not steal, do not start wars, and are not "slaves to the drags [sic] of everyday life" for no reason other than that THEY do not want to be. Any person with a halfways reasonable level of intelligence is capable of realizing the so-called "Christian morality" without having to know God. The morality you describe is self-evident and perfectly logical when one considers rational self-interest with the appropriate long-term view. I don't go out and rob banks because I don't want to have my own bank robbed. I don't kill people because I don't want to get killed. I don't lie because I don't want to be lied to, etc, etc. A person does not need God to explain morality to them. I will agree completely that a person needs God to have salvation, but salvation does not make this current life better, and if a person believes simply because they want salvation then their motives are ultimately selfish.

To sum up: A life without God is NOT BY ANY STRETCH automatically a life of slavery to "free-base addiction". Such instances are the exception and not the rule. "Cristian morals" are, in fact, self-evident principles that can be arrived at independantly of a faith in God.

I do want to be clear on one last thing though, I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe that He died for my sin and for everyone else's sin. I believe that He was, is, and forever will be the son of God. What I do not believe in is the unthinking and overly simplistic approach that so many Christians today seem to take towards their faith.

ZV

EDIT: Typos.

<----- Agrees although I'm "strong agnostic"
I just finished reading Frederick Douglass Auto Bio. In my opinion not only are morals self-evident principles; they do not necessarily have anything to do with religon. Being a good person is something entirely seperate from being a religous person. The two things can be going on at the same time but it is not a requirement.

 

[Athanasius]

Being a good person is something entirely seperate from being a religous person. The two things can be going on at the same time but it is not a requirement.

I agree with this quote and with Zenmervolts' post, but I think the divorce of religion from morality (though it obviously occurs) reveals a split within us. In the end, I think foundational truth can only be foundational if it is a "unifying connecting principle." But history leaves little doubt that immoral religion has been more destructive than irreligious morality.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Magnus, I want your poems! Please post a link to your poetry.

sorry, lost my remote storage in the dot-com bust, and my local storage in a hard-drive crash. amazed you remember! I remember you've got a ranch

Originally posted by: Athanasius

4) Church. What a big steaming pile of poo.

Why on Earth would God want us to worship him? WHY? It's not like he's some communist. Kiss my feet or go to Hell?

Bwhahaha!!!

Right.

:disgust:

Maybe "worship" is just another name for "declare your center."



LordMagnus, I am happy for you.

Thank you, and thank you semper

I think the biggest red light in my mind is that there are so many religions. They can't all be right, because they are often contradictory, at least if taken literally. So in my mind, they are all wrong by mutual exclusion.

Truth is self-evident, be open and try to learn about the basis of the religions you encounter.. Islam isn't Christianity with a different Deity you 'must' believe in, for example.

every faith is based on some amount of truth.. just look into the most basic teachings of each and see what your heart tells you is the most good. Jesus said 'if you Seek you will find' 'if you knock i will answer', though he also said 'no man comes to the Father except through me', that's not the beginning of the search, it's the end point.. so seek, knock, find your answer.

here is how I was answered in regards to your questions.. i do hope it helps your own journey.

First and foremost, I refuse to believe that God is some pissed off motherfscker that punishes you if you do not believe in him and follow all of his rules.

I agree with you, such is not the nature of God, but rather to be forgiving and infinitely full of mercy.

Absolutely disgusting.

i agree, as is the way some churches have built an atmosphere of 'fear' around faith in order to keep control in there own hands.

Why would God care if we believe in him or not?

In my free will i can chose to be near God or not to be... God does not hate us, but he will not force you or i to be any closer to him than we want to be..
God loves us, wants what's best, and if we choose to be closer to him then will be better off in this life and the next.

Why would that make him angry?

The idea of God's wrath is a human perspective.. it's like saying that the pool is angry and swallowed up your friend who couldn't swim when he went into the deep end.. we are learning to swim.. Jesus went to the whores and the drunkards and showed them freedom, we might do the same by the will of God... but if we go ware we are not ready to swim, ware we are not ready to hand our will over to God, then we will drown.. it's not God's anger, it's our own pride;

was Adam's sin bighting the apple, or was it blaming his bighting it on God? "this woman, who YOU gave me"

If we're supposed to be his children that have fallen from grace, and this is our school.. then we merely have not learned yet. Life is all the punishment we need. A teacher does not punish a pupil when they do not grasp something.

God let's us get our learning from the school of life, where your free will brings you to the humbleness to submit that you can't be fulfilled without him... all else you may buy or gain will make you happy, for a time.. but that time will pass, the Love of God lasts as long as you hold on.

2)... The Bible. Great. So I'm supposed to gain all my theistic knowledge from a 2,000 year old book that has been written and rewritten by God knows how many men(no pun intended)?

Faith.
My faith is in Jesus, his truth, his goodness. "On Christ the solid rock i stand, all other ground is sinking sand"; the rest is faith, faith that God would not leave us blind here on earth, faith that if you take something negative away from the bible then you've read it wrong, faith that God loves us.

I mean, the Bible is a great story book. It teaches history, values, lessons and morals, and there is nothing wrong with that. But it's going to take a little more than a 2,000 year old book of values, lessons and morals for me to believe that the Creator of all this wonderfulness is malicious.

If you get a malicious intent coming from God from the bible then try changing your perspective on the situation a bit.
Slavery was a big one for me.. but i found that slaves where mandated to be treated better than minimum-wage workers are today.. AND they where freed every 7 years.. you could say bad credit is smiler to the slavery of old.. but then they had more rights, and they where better taken care of.

Things like that are all over the place, but if you look at the perspective of the time, and the culture it's talking to, you'll see that it's progressive practical movement for a people that refused, often, even to take that rebuke.

Further, it cannot be the word of God, unless God was incarnated 2,000 years ago and wrote it himself. It was written, translated and rewritten by Man. Period.

Faith, only answer there, I distrust all man-touched institutions as well, but i trust in God to make evident through his Holy Spirit the good of the truth he's given us.

3) Organized religion. There are and have been dozens of religions. Which one is right?

each man will be judged by his own heart.. so seek as i said earlier, you will find.. be humble and yearn only for what is truly good.

How do you know you've picked the right one?

The holy spirit will come over you.. you will feel the length depth and width of the infinite of God.. and it will be build on a foundation of truth goodness and love.

Why do they all try and control their people with fear?

not all do, a central tenant of a majority of protestant denominations is "once saved always saved";

Though if you go on a mass-killing spree you might wish to ask yourself if you where ever truly humble unto the Lord.

It is ironic that they all try to explain the origins of.. everything, which of course, has always been a hot topic among st any people.

I've found that they all pretty much agree.. symbolically anyway.. they also seem to agree all the way up to a great flood of the earth; then they schism into different peoples of different faiths and directions. But I'm not theologian.

I guess I just don't have enough faith.

Faith is needed, but if your gaol is the truth, I've got faith you'll find what teachings are true and good and from that have faith that all of those teachings, even the ones that require faith to accept, are true and good.

Well, I take that back. I have plenty of faith.. that we know a little more than we did 2,000 years ago. We're understanding how more and more things in the world work now, and suddenly things start to fit into place without a mystical explanation.

To me it just brings up more questions, though more complex ones, that can only be answered with more and more Divine intervention, or faith in something like super-strings.

look at quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle... seems that it's all got to be held together some how to even be remotely functional up here.

but, once again, that's faith.

Of course, I'm totally open to their being a supreme being that created us. Assuming the universe is however many billions of years old.. What if some ancient, advanced, dying planet found Earth and sent a probe with some "primordial soup" here, so the legacy of their planet would continue on.. at least to them?

How is that for a God?

does it matter? why? God's goodness is eternal, no matter how things where done or by whom: God intended us to be here.

Pretty depressing, huh?

What's depressing is how we've messed up his fine earth, and each-other of whom we are all the same.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: matt426malm

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
Someone with a relationship with God through salvation isn't going to be a thief, isn't going to start a holy war, and isn't going to be slave to the drags of every day life that so many others turn to drugs and alcohol to 'fix'.

An avowed atheist with at least two functioning brain cells isn't going to do any of that either because it's a bloody stupid idea to do those things, even secularly. You make some very arrogant assumptions about what people would do on their own and you are quite clearly implying that you agree with the ancient fallacy that there is no morality outside of a relationahip with God.

There are millions upon millions of people who do not steal, do not start wars, and are not "slaves to the drags [sic] of everyday life" for no reason other than that THEY do not want to be. Any person with a halfways reasonable level of intelligence is capable of realizing the so-called "Christian morality" without having to know God. The morality you describe is self-evident and perfectly logical when one considers rational self-interest with the appropriate long-term view. I don't go out and rob banks because I don't want to have my own bank robbed. I don't kill people because I don't want to get killed. I don't lie because I don't want to be lied to, etc, etc. A person does not need God to explain morality to them. I will agree completely that a person needs God to have salvation, but salvation does not make this current life better, and if a person believes simply because they want salvation then their motives are ultimately selfish.

To sum up: A life without God is NOT BY ANY STRETCH automatically a life of slavery to "free-base addiction". Such instances are the exception and not the rule. "Cristian morals" are, in fact, self-evident principles that can be arrived at independantly of a faith in God.

I do want to be clear on one last thing though, I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe that He died for my sin and for everyone else's sin. I believe that He was, is, and forever will be the son of God. What I do not believe in is the unthinking and overly simplistic approach that so many Christians today seem to take towards their faith.

ZV

EDIT: Typos.

<----- Agrees although I'm "strong agnostic"
I just finished reading Frederick Douglass Auto Bio. In my opinion not only are morals self-evident principles; they do not necessarily have anything to do with religon. Being a good person is something entirely seperate from being a religous person. The two things can be going on at the same time but it is not a requirement.

Forgive me for my responce there, it's a sour spot when someone says that they are better off without God, as it's the embodyment of Good.

Each man is judged by his own heart, that we have religious laws does not give us license to be immoral, but rather sets us to a higher standard.- Romans ch 1-2

I suggest that God is the author of all good morality, thus someone, even if they deny God, is following after Christ in being moral.

Following after God, or even believing in God in any way is not necessarily a religious issue.

evil is taking what is good and changing it just little enough to turn it bad... thus the corruption of the ultimate good: following after Crist's will... can lead to the ultimate bad: defying the Lords will in the name of 'god'.

The holy spirit is what convicts us... "all sins will be forgiven, except for blasphemy against the holy spirit"-Jesus


So yea, not everyone needs to evoke the name of God to get the blessings of following him.. but following His will is intrinsic to having the best life, no matter the world perspective.

Jesus is the paradigm of truth and good, thus all those who open their hearts to seeking after the essential truth of good will find Christ, Jesus there to answer his call.

such is my faith, and there are many it's brought great salvation to, and NONE it has brought to a worse life for.

p.s.

before getting flamed for this.. i DO realize that other people have found a better life through religions that don't have you place Christ at your center... it's my faith*and I'm sure others have Faith contrary* that Jesus is the definition of the Good of God... as it's my faith*and I'm sure others have faith contrary* that if you search with a humble heart for the truth of Good you will find Jesus.

 

[Haps]

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed
couple. The man spoke first:

John: Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary.
Mary: Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us.
Me: Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?
John: If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the @#%$ out of you.
Me: What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?
John: Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever he wants,
and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss his ass.
Me: That doesn't make any sense. Why...
Mary: Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?
Me: Well maybe, if it's legit, but...
John: Then come kiss Hank's ass with us.
Me: Do you kiss Hank's ass often?
Mary: Oh yes, all the time...
Me: And has He given you a million dollars?
John: Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town.
Me: So why don't you just leave town now?
Mary: You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the @#%$ out of you.
Me: Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?
John: My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money.
Me: Haven't you talked to her since then?
John: Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it.
Me: So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the
money?
Mary: Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto,
maybe you'll just fmd a twenty-dollar bill on the street.
Me: What's that got to do with Hank?
John: Hank has certain "connections."
Me: I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game.
.
John: But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick
the @#%$ of you.
Me: Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from him...
Mary: No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank.
Me: Then how do you kiss His ass?
John: Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on.
Me: Who's Karl?
Mary: A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out
to dinner a few times.
Me: And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that
Hank would reward you?
John: Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for
yourself.

From the desk of Karl
1.Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2.Use alcohol in moderation.
3.Kick the @#%$ out of people who aren't like you.
4.Eat right.
5.Hank dictated this list Himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese. . '
7.Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9.Don't use alcohol.
10.Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11.Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the @#%$ out of you.

Me: This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead.
Mary: Hank didn't have any paper.
Me: I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting.
John: Of course, Hank dictated it.
Me: I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?
Mary: Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people.
Me: I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the @#%$ out of people just
because they're different?
Mary: It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right.
Me: How do you figure that?
Mary: Item 7 says "Everything Hank says is right." That's good enough for me!

Me: Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up.
John: No way! Item 5 says "Hank dictated this list himself." Besides, item 2 says "Use alcohol in moderation," Item
4 says "Eat right," and item 8 says "Wash your hands after going to the bathroom." Everyone knows those things are
right, so the rest must be true, too.
Me: But 9 says "Don't use alcohol." which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says "The moon is made of green
cheese," which is just plain wrong.
John: There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon,
so you can't say for sure.
Me: Scientists have pretty flmlly established that the moon is made of rock...
Mary: But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from outer space, so it could just as easily be green
cheese.
Me: I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow "captured" by the Earth has been
discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese.
John: Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!
Me: We do?
Mary: Of course we do, Item 5 says so.
Me: You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we
know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying "Hank's right
because He says He's right." , '
John: Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking.
Me: But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?
Mary: (Blushes)
John: Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong.
Me: What if I don't have a bun?
John: No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong.
Me: No relish? No Mustard?
Mary: (Looks positively stricken)
John: (Shouting) There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!
Me: So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?
Mary: (Sticks her fmgers in her ears) I am not listening to this. La la la, lu la, la la la.
John: That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that...
Me: It's good! I eat it all the time.

Mary: (Faints)
John: (Catches Mary) Well, if I'd known you where one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks
the @#%$ out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-
wienered kraut-eater.
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

/hug Haps

If only you knew the truth.. that God's kingdom is here on earth, and all the Glory and Good that comes from God is free for you now, as you live, as a free gift.

All you've got to do is, not kiss-but, but actually care about yourself enough to want Good over your own selfish ambitions. How can God give you what is good when you do not want it?

many add a lot to the good news of salvation, but the essential is this: Abide in Him who is Christ Jesus... hey, just honestly go searching for what is Good, you'll come around.



*************

please, no hate mongering.

 

[matt426malm]

Originally posted by: Haps
This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed
couple. The man spoke first:

John: Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary.
Mary: Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us.
Me: Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?
John: If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the @#%$ out of you.
Me: What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?
John: Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever he wants,
and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss his ass.
Me: That doesn't make any sense. Why...
Mary: Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?
Me: Well maybe, if it's legit, but...
John: Then come kiss Hank's ass with us.
Me: Do you kiss Hank's ass often?
Mary: Oh yes, all the time...
Me: And has He given you a million dollars?
John: Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town.
Me: So why don't you just leave town now?
Mary: You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the @#%$ out of you.
Me: Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?
John: My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money.
Me: Haven't you talked to her since then?
John: Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it.
Me: So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the
money?
Mary: Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto,
maybe you'll just fmd a twenty-dollar bill on the street.
Me: What's that got to do with Hank?
John: Hank has certain "connections."
Me: I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game.
.
John: But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick
the @#%$ of you.
Me: Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from him...
Mary: No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank.
Me: Then how do you kiss His ass?
John: Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on.
Me: Who's Karl?
Mary: A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out
to dinner a few times.
Me: And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that
Hank would reward you?
John: Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for
yourself.

From the desk of Karl
1.Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2.Use alcohol in moderation.
3.Kick the @#%$ out of people who aren't like you.
4.Eat right.
5.Hank dictated this list Himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese. . '
7.Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9.Don't use alcohol.
10.Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11.Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the @#%$ out of you.

Me: This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead.
Mary: Hank didn't have any paper.
Me: I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting.
John: Of course, Hank dictated it.
Me: I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?
Mary: Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people.
Me: I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the @#%$ out of people just
because they're different?
Mary: It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right.
Me: How do you figure that?
Mary: Item 7 says "Everything Hank says is right." That's good enough for me!

Me: Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up.
John: No way! Item 5 says "Hank dictated this list himself." Besides, item 2 says "Use alcohol in moderation," Item
4 says "Eat right," and item 8 says "Wash your hands after going to the bathroom." Everyone knows those things are
right, so the rest must be true, too.
Me: But 9 says "Don't use alcohol." which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says "The moon is made of green
cheese," which is just plain wrong.
John: There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon,
so you can't say for sure.
Me: Scientists have pretty flmlly established that the moon is made of rock...
Mary: But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from outer space, so it could just as easily be green
cheese.
Me: I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow "captured" by the Earth has been
discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese.
John: Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!
Me: We do?
Mary: Of course we do, Item 5 says so.
Me: You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we
know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying "Hank's right
because He says He's right." , '
John: Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking.
Me: But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?
Mary: (Blushes)
John: Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong.
Me: What if I don't have a bun?
John: No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong.
Me: No relish? No Mustard?
Mary: (Looks positively stricken)
John: (Shouting) There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!
Me: So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?
Mary: (Sticks her fmgers in her ears) I am not listening to this. La la la, lu la, la la la.
John: That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that...
Me: It's good! I eat it all the time.

Mary: (Faints)
John: (Catches Mary) Well, if I'd known you where one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks
the @#%$ out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-
wienered kraut-eater.
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

Dude where did you get this
John: Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on.
Me: Who's Karl?
Mangus you got to admit that is pretty dam funny

Question for Mangus if you had never found out about christinanity would you still be a good person. For me the awnser is yes. I didn't say that religous people are bad people in the last post; just said as a lot of evidence seems to suggest. It can go either way they could be good, maybe not. Have you read Frederick Douglas's auto bio, it's not anti religous. In fact it's mostly about slavery but there is a good deal about religon. The author has very much faith in God, it's more reformationist.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

John: Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on.
Me: Who's Karl?
Mangus you got to admit that is pretty dam funny

Fools are always a laugh riot. *see George Carlen*

if you had never found out about christinanity would you still be a good person.

i was always a 'good boy' as a kid, I'd probably be an animal rights-activist or some such, in an attempt to feel like i was doing what was 'right'.

but honestly, i wouldn't be me in that case.

 

[Shanteli]

Religion is for the weak. You just dragged youself and your family to the gutter of an imaginary concept of hope.

But to each their own. Enjoy.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

to quote sinfest:

Slick:"God, you're nothin' but a crutch"
God:"Yea!.. well.. you're lame!"

 

[Chrishuff1]

I'm on your side LordMagnus POWER TO THE CHRISTIAN FOLK!

 

[upsciLLion]

Originally posted by: Shanteli
Religion is for the weak. You just dragged youself and your family to the gutter of an imaginary concept of hope.

But to each their own. Enjoy.

Do you have proof of that?

ups

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: upsciLLion

Originally posted by: Shanteli
Religion is for the weak. You just dragged youself and your family to the gutter of an imaginary concept of hope.

But to each their own. Enjoy.

Do you have proof of that?

ups

if he had proof it would deny his faith.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Shanteli
Religion is for the weak. You just dragged youself and your family to the gutter of an imaginary concept of hope.

But to each their own. Enjoy.

All religion is is a way to worship the god or gods that you believe in, and I don't think believing in something beyond us is for the weak. Weakness is what brings many to religion, but following religion does not mean you're weak. There have been countless leaders and figures in history of exceptional intelligence who have been very religious.

 

[Chunkee]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Shanteli
Religion is for the weak. You just dragged youself and your family to the gutter of an imaginary concept of hope.

But to each their own. Enjoy.

All religion is is a way to worship the god or gods that you believe in, and I don't think believing in something beyond us is for the weak. Weakness is what brings many to religion, but following religion does not mean you're weak. There have been countless leaders and figures in history of exceptional intelligence who have been very religious.

nicely put

There is nothing wrong with faith. I have finally found a great open minded Chrisitan church. God Bless all of you.

How can something be bad or condemned if it brings warmth and a sense of well being. It can only be a good thing. I have been cynical and distrusting, and I was miserable and distrusting. I am fortunate to have found people that actually care, that are sincere and help others. It makes me a better person. I think the world could use more of that...instead we have faithless majorities, that are cynical, and curse the very being of existence.

Take care all, and never be ashamed whatsoever to disclose that you love God and His Son. And for all those who have good testimony, and experience the glory and warmth, make sure you help others reach the same goal. God forbid we actually have some semblance of brotherhood in this world.

JC

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
such is my faith, and there are many it's brought great salvation to, and NONE it has brought to a worse life for.

I have to disagee. Any system that builds up the weak (which must necessarily be accompanied by a simultaneous weakening of the strong) serves to make this life on earth more difficult. Life is harder to the degree to which we are required to give of ourselves and use our strength to strengthen those who are weaker.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: przero
Zenmervolt - Leviticus 19:18

Lev 19:18 "You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself..."

I don't see how that is suggestive of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". One can love one's neighbor without there being any action on the feeling.

ZV

 

[Chunkee]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain
such is my faith, and there are many it's brought great salvation to, and NONE it has brought to a worse life for.

I have to disagee. Any system that builds up the weak (which must necessarily be accompanied by a simultaneous weakening of the strong) serves to make this life on earth more difficult. Life is harder to the degree to which we are required to give of ourselves and use our strength to strengthen those who are weaker.

ZV

This is what make us different...we are human..we have conscience, we have feelings and emotions. your statement reflects a pretext that suggests that we are disrupting the "natural order" and in fact are making it weaker.

That appears to be a very bleak outlook on mandkind. I suppose if we all had that view, we could go around and kill off everyone at our whim, or we should just kill ourselves, since everything is meaningless, purposeless and only causing a constant weakness.

I hope that when and if you are down and out and in pain, that you are not left for the wolves to eat you, but rather a kind hand to reach out to you and help.

God Bless

JC

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: przero
Zenmervolt - Leviticus 19:18

Lev 19:18 "You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself..."

I don't see how that is suggestive of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". One can love one's neighbor without there being any action on the feeling.

ZV

To love one-another is to try to behave in that manner.

ps

Chunkee is right on with his assessment of your presumption that it hurts people to be helped... by the logic you put forth slavery Nazism and anything else that requires "might makes right" as it's basis is justified.

if that's your philosophy, that's fine, I'll agree to dis-agree.

 

[Chrishuff1]

Thats why people won't accept Christ, because they put logic and all this other crap into it rather then just believing. It will surely be a sight to see on the judgment day when all those who have put down Christianity finally realize the truth. Many tears will be shed....

 

[matt426malm]

Originally posted by: Chrishuff1
Thats why people won't accept Christ, because they put logic and all this other crap into it rather then just believing. It will surely be a sight to see on the judgment day when all those who have put down Christianity finally realize the truth. Many tears will be shed....

I'm guessing this isn't sarcasm based on the religous quote you got down there. Damn logic, it always has screwed up religon. Man it's so obivous, thank you Chrishuff1, we have to stop thinking. Mangus is at least reasonable. I can appreciate people that believe in God because they thought is through and that is how they decided to live their life. Their is nothing of benefit to anyone in the statement you just made. Logic and reason are the light in the dark world of man. Would you like to go back to hunting and gathering. I can respect a Christian, but not a zealot. And you sir are just that. Enough to make an atheist pray, pray your kidding.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: matt426malm

Originally posted by: Chrishuff1
Thats why people won't accept Christ, because they put logic and all this other crap into it rather then just believing. It will surely be a sight to see on the judgment day when all those who have put down Christianity finally realize the truth. Many tears will be shed....

I'm guessing this isn't sarcasm based on the religous quote you got down there. Damn logic, it always has screwed up religon. Man it's so obivous, thank you Chrishuff1, we have to stop thinking. Mangus is at least reasonable. I can appreciate people that believe in God because they thought is through and that is how they decided to live their life. Their is nothing of benefit to anyone in the statement you just made. Logic and reason are the light in the dark world of man. Would you like to go back to hunting and gathering. I can respect a Christian, but not a zealot. And you sir are just that. Enough to make an atheist pray, pray your kidding.

The problem is that people tie themselves up in logical fallacies then THINK they have thought it through..
honestly, there is no proving or disproving God absolutely: it requires Faith to please God.

I AM Zealous about my faith, I'm a fan (sort for fanatic) of Christ and his teachings;

there is a group that believes in yelling the good news to people so that, even if the people don't listen, at lest they tried to spread the word...

I'm of the opinion that all i have to do is tell the truth, offer to share when possible, and God will move as He wills.

or rather:

humble>zelous.

 

[Eli]

I ask again, Christianty is but one of dozens of different religions.

Why is yours right?

The answer is that it is not.

Originally posted by: Chrishuff1
Thats why people won't accept Christ, because they put logic and all this other crap into it rather then just believing. It will surely be a sight to see on the judgment day when all those who have put down Christianity finally realize the truth. Many tears will be shed....

Uh huh. Why don't you accept Allah? Man, many tears sure are going to be shed. You need to accept Allah now, for you will be punished!

I'm of the opinion that all i have to do is tell the truth, offer to share when possible, and God will move as He wills.

Ahem. It is not the truth, because as you say in your very same post, "there is no proving or disproving God absolutely", so by definition, it is your opinion.

Just think, you could be spreading misinformation around. God must be very angry at you.



Sorry.. I just find the whole thing ridiculous.