Company is firing all of its smokers - whether they smoke at work or not

[onelin]

There is a fundamental difference between cancer, MS, obesity (at least many will argue) vs smoking - smoking you do to yourself and it's a sizeable health risk. We're not talking based on coincidental "risk factors" ...this is a conscious risk smokers are taking on and should not (and I don't think will) be grouped with all of these type of examples. You can't create a slippery slope scenario based off of this. Besides, if the illnesses/whatever mentioned occurred after the user was on the healthcare policy it can't account for rate hikes...that's why it's called INSURANCE. It's for things you didn't expect.

Pay the higher premium, lose coverage, or quit smoking. People can't just quit having illnesses.

I can see the whole equal treatment issue which is why I assume they were let go.

 

[Eli]

As long as I come to work 10 minutes early, leave 10 minutes late and do my job 110% of expected, what I do on my own time is none of my employers business.

Period.

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: dabuddha
You guys are arguing about a situation that does not exist. No one has cancelled anyones health care or fired mass numbers of people because they're obese or engaging in unprotected sex.

Yet.

As soon as there is an opportunity to take something away, it can and will be abused. Sad thing is once rights are taken away it's hard to get them back, as whoever benefits from the measure doesn't want to give up the power.

Corporations are known to want to dictate more than employees' lives -- the world's -- all for it's gain.

It's naive to claim that just because it hasn't happen, it won't happen. Fill a bowl full of candy and see if a kid has will power to avoid eating it all. Thus, liberty must be protected, as few entities have the willpower to not exploit something for some gain at the expense of themselves and others.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Terumo

Originally posted by: dabuddha
You guys are arguing about a situation that does not exist. No one has cancelled anyones health care or fired mass numbers of people because they're obese or engaging in unprotected sex.

Yet.

As soon as there is an opportunity to take something away, it can and will be abused. Sad thing is once rights are taken away it's hard to get them back, as whoever benefits from the measure doesn't want to give up the power.

Corporations are known to want to dictate more than employees' lives -- the world's -- all for it's gain.

It's naive to claim that just because it hasn't happen, it won't happen. Fill a bowl full of candy and see if a kid has will power to avoid eating it all. Thus, liberty must be protected, as few entities have the willpower to not exploit something for some gain at the expense of themselves and others.

Lot's of FUD, and no facts.

The fact is, you NEVER had these "rights" to begin with. Employers have ALWAYS had the right to fire people for lifestyle choices outside of work that they believe will negatively affect their work.

In fact, up until just a couple decades ago, employers had the right to fire you for any reason they choose. And they should still have that right.

Again, employment IS NOT A RIGHT.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Well, either way, the company is obviously run by simpletons who will hopefully have to pay through the nose for this. There are many better ways this could have been handled. If your employer has the right to fire you for something that doesn't affect your work performance, is completely legal, and is done in your time away from work, that sets a bad precedent.
Why didn't they just come up with some manufactured reason to fire them? Or not give them a reason at all?

Why should they have to give a reason?

If someone wants you fired, be the reason "reasonable" or not by your standards, why would you want to work for them? Why would you want to force them to employ you? All that does is guarantee a dead end job and a crappy work environment.

Do you think you should be able to quit a job for whatever reason? If so, why wont you extend that same right to employers?

Couldn't be bothered to read my whole post or something? I bolded the part you seem to have missed.

 

[Hammer]

Originally posted by: Eli
As long as I come to work 10 minutes early, leave 10 minutes late and do my job 110% of expected, what I do on my own time is none of my employers business.

Period.

wrong. your actions outside of work that could negatively impact the company's image can be ground for termination. check your employment agreement.

 

[imthebadguy]

good, if it was my company i'd wanna do the same

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: Amused
Lot's of FUD, and no facts.

Even if I posted a hundred cites, links and complete papers on the topic you'd still come back with that remark. Because the facts you want to believe fit your ideas.

The fact is, you NEVER had these "rights" to begin with.

Wrong. Humans have inherit rights. Check the constitution for a reality check. No business owns a person, nor do they have the right to dictate their life choices. We are not slaves to some glass tower or a CEO, we are humans first.

Employers have ALWAYS had the right to fire people for lifestyle choices outside of work that they believe will negatively affect their work.

Employers have NO right to dictate the life style choices of their employees (at least legal life style choices that don't infringe on another's rights).

Smoking causes no more negative affect in working than having a beer after work. In fact, nicotine is a stimulant which can and does improve one's work.

Don't even tempt me to floor you with medical studies to prove that to you. MEDLINE is my pal. Save face, and back off while you can.

In fact, up until just a couple decades ago, employers had the right to fire you for any reason they choose. And they should still have that right.

Not for lifestyle choice off the company's dime.

Again, employment IS NOT A RIGHT.

And opinions aren't a right too, huh? What next, cameras in all our bedrooms so CEO's can tell if their employees sleep 8hrs a day? Crazy? Not so on the way regulation and ability to be human is taken away.

Never sale your soul to the company store, you'll be bought and sold into slavery everytime.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Terumo

In fact, up until just a couple decades ago, employers had the right to fire you for any reason they choose. And they should still have that right.

Not for lifestyle choice off the company's dime.

got ya right there. health insurance IS on the company's dime.

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: Hammer

Originally posted by: Eli
As long as I come to work 10 minutes early, leave 10 minutes late and do my job 110% of expected, what I do on my own time is none of my employers business.

Period.

wrong. your actions outside of work that could negatively impact the company's image can be ground for termination. check your employment agreement.

Which is why self-employment is the key to happiness. And the move in the future is just that -- decentralized employment, where workers are FREE AGENTS.

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Terumo

In fact, up until just a couple decades ago, employers had the right to fire you for any reason they choose. And they should still have that right.

Not for lifestyle choice off the company's dime.

got ya right there. health insurance IS on the company's dime.

Got ya right there. Actually it's on the government's dime.

Private insurance does not pay the full cost of medicine. Medicine is a community affair, and it affects more than a premium paid to a insurance policy. Those with chronic conditions (which is the most costly group to care for) rarely have private insurance, and the most expensive healthcare applies to them.

Thinking by just selective pruning to control costs is a solution is a short sighted one. Companies just defray the cost onto the government, making it yet another corporate welfare benefit.

That's reality, not PR hype.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: TipsyMcStagger
If i remember correctly, they announced this over a year ago. These smokers had plenty of time to quit. people that smoke take more sick days and are unproductive unless they get their "fix"

actually as it is a mild stimulant smokers are more productive.

next?

hmmm - I'm gonna fire all those who drink coffee or take cofee breaks. They take more time off because their ulcers and are unproductive if they don't get their fix. Plus I'm expected to pay for it?????

I mean they had plenty of time and did it to themselves and cost my insurance money. I honestly can't believe the anti smoking brigade has gotten this ignorant and short-sighted.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Terumo

Originally posted by: Amused
Lot's of FUD, and no facts.

Even if I posted a hundred cites, links and complete papers on the topic you'd still come back with that remark. Because the facts you want to believe fit your ideas.

The fact is, you NEVER had these "rights" to begin with.

Wrong. Humans have inherit rights. Check the constitution for a reality check. No business owns a person, nor do they have the right to dictate their life choices. We are not slaves to some glass tower or a CEO, we are humans first.

Employers have ALWAYS had the right to fire people for lifestyle choices outside of work that they believe will negatively affect their work.

Employers have NO right to dictate the life style choices of their employees (at least legal life style choices that don't infringe on another's rights).

Smoking causes no more negative affect in working than having a beer after work. In fact, nicotine is a stimulant which can and does improve one's work.

Don't even tempt me to floor you with medical studies to prove that to you. MEDLINE is my pal. Save face, and back off while you can.

In fact, up until just a couple decades ago, employers had the right to fire you for any reason they choose. And they should still have that right.

Not for lifestyle choice off the company's dime.

Again, employment IS NOT A RIGHT.

And opinions aren't a right too, huh? What next, cameras in all our bedrooms so CEO's can tell if their employees sleep 8hrs a day? Crazy? Not so on the way regulation and ability to be human is taken away.

Never sale your soul to the company store, you'll be bought and sold into slavery everytime.

The employer is NOT dictating what the employee can and cannot do in their private life. The employer is saying the employee cannot smoke, and work for them. There is a difference. The employee does NOT have a "right" to work for that employer at their own terms. The employer has a right to set whatever terms they like and the employee has the right to reject those terms, and find employment elsewhere.

Please show me any law, or "right" in the Bill of Rights that says employers cannot fire an employee for doing something they disagree with at ANY TIME.

OOPS, you cannot. Because no such law exists. Employers have ALWAYS had the right to fire employees for ANYTHING not related to race, religion, national origin, sex and disability. ANYTHING.

They have had this right since the founding of this country. And your FUD, doom and gloom have not come to pass. For good reason. Most employers will never care what their employees do off work so long as it doesn't affect the company. But for those who do, they have every right to fire anyone they damn well please, just as the employee has every right to quit any time they damn well please.

So please, stop pulling rights out of your ass that do not exist, OK?

 

[knoxweather]

finw with me

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Terumo

Originally posted by: Hammer

Originally posted by: Eli
As long as I come to work 10 minutes early, leave 10 minutes late and do my job 110% of expected, what I do on my own time is none of my employers business.

Period.

wrong. your actions outside of work that could negatively impact the company's image can be ground for termination. check your employment agreement.

Which is why self-employment is the key to happiness. And the move in the future is just that -- decentralized employment, where workers are FREE AGENTS.

Whoops!! Looks like we have a MLM/Amway freak on our hands, folks. :roll:

 

MLL? Stop using thoes retarded P&N acronyms!

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: SampSon
MLL? Stop using thoes retarded P&N acronyms!

Multi Level Marketing. Amway style bullshIt.

Has nothing to do with P&N.

 

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: SampSon
MLL? Stop using thoes retarded P&N acronyms!

Multi Level Marketing. Amway style bullshIt.

Has nothing to do with P&N.

Gotcha. Shouldn't it be MLM then?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: SampSon
MLL? Stop using thoes retarded P&N acronyms!

Multi Level Marketing. Amway style bullshIt.

Has nothing to do with P&N.

Gotcha. Shouldn't it be MLM then?

Of course, That's what I wrote. Sheesh!

 

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: SampSon
MLL? Stop using thoes retarded P&N acronyms!

Multi Level Marketing. Amway style bullshIt.

Has nothing to do with P&N.

Gotcha. Shouldn't it be MLM then?

Of course, That's what I wrote. Sheesh!

Cheater.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: SampSon
MLL? Stop using thoes retarded P&N acronyms!

Multi Level Marketing. Amway style bullshIt.

Has nothing to do with P&N.

Gotcha. Shouldn't it be MLM then?

Of course, That's what I wrote. Sheesh!

Cheater.

 

[ArmchairAthlete]

It's a private company, they can hire and fire as they please right?

So I don't like smokers very much.

 

[shuan24]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: Terumo

Originally posted by: dabuddha
You guys are arguing about a situation that does not exist. No one has cancelled anyones health care or fired mass numbers of people because they're obese or engaging in unprotected sex.

Yet.

As soon as there is an opportunity to take something away, it can and will be abused. Sad thing is once rights are taken away it's hard to get them back, as whoever benefits from the measure doesn't want to give up the power.

Corporations are known to want to dictate more than employees' lives -- the world's -- all for it's gain.

It's naive to claim that just because it hasn't happen, it won't happen. Fill a bowl full of candy and see if a kid has will power to avoid eating it all. Thus, liberty must be protected, as few entities have the willpower to not exploit something for some gain at the expense of themselves and others.

Lot's of FUD, and no facts.

The fact is, you NEVER had these "rights" to begin with. Employers have ALWAYS had the right to fire people for lifestyle choices outside of work that they believe will negatively affect their work.

In fact, up until just a couple decades ago, employers had the right to fire you for any reason they choose. And they should still have that right.

Again, employment IS NOT A RIGHT.

Amused,

the case here is not whether or not smoking affects their work. The case is whether or not a company can fire you for smoking off the clock. I see that you believe that they have that right. Fine. Do you believe companies have the right to fire you for anything they want? Lets say, because you like to go bicycling after work. You're fired. Do you believe that is moral and/or lawful?

 

[OutHouse]

^^ Good Point.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Uppsala9496
This has class action lawsuit written all over it. You CAN NOT discriminate against someone for health reasons at a job unless the health issue prevents them from performing the job. So, terminating someone because they smoke and saying it has to do with higher health costs is illegal.
Sorry, have to fire you because you just came down with breast cancer and we can't afford the associated health costs. Yep, your fired too since you have a family history of heart disease. And you. You are fired because you just had a premature baby and that is going to cost us $100,000. Oh, and all you women are fired because you too might get pregnant and have premy babies.........
And no, I am not a smoker. Personally I find it revolting, but to blatantly discriminate against a class of people like that is beyond illegal. "At will" state or not!

Did you guys actually READ the article? It said they were fired for REFUSING to take a test to determine whether they smoke cigarettes. This is no different than if you are asked to take a test to determine whether you have recently done drugs. Chances are that the policy was clearly defined in their contracts as a term of employment. There is nothing here to make anyone think that this has any illegitimacy to it whatsoever.

Jason

Do you not understand that drugs are illegal and smoking is LEGAL. It doesnt matter if it was in the employee handbook or if they signed a piece of paper, the employee still has his civil rights. The employeer has no business telling an employee if he can smoke a cig, cigar or pipe on his own time.

I for one, would quit if i worked for this company. As others pointed out, whats next a review of my health history and of my parents health history ??

Of course I do, that's not the issue. Drugs cause health complications that are expensive; so do cigarettes. If the company doesn't want to pay those costs, it has every right to NOT hire smokers, and since the smokers themselves knew for more than a YEAR in advance, I have no sympathy for them. They had PLENTY of time to either quit smoking or find another job.

Jason