Company is firing all of its smokers - whether they smoke at work or not

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g8wayrebel

Senior member
Nov 15, 2004
694
0
0
Although this is certainly controversial, most of the first two pages missed the point. The employees were fired for refusing to take the test to determine whether or not they smoked, not for being smokers. I would need to know what is being done with smokers to have an objective opinion on the matter. How about you? Are smokers being fired, paying more for health care , being refused health care? If the company is following the current trend and charging more for smokers, they are within rights and there will be no lawsuit, or at least not a successful one.
 

homestarmy

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2004
3,528
0
0
artwilbur.com
Originally posted by: Wanescotting
So what about the employees that engage in unprotected sex? What about the employees that are obese?



Where would it stop?

Fire the fatties, maybe when they can't pay for food they'll lose some damn weight.

As far as the unprotected sex... pass out condoms or something. Plus you can't prove it.
 

Alex

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 1999
6,995
0
0
Originally posted by: mcvickj
This seems wrong on several levels. I can see the company telling the employees no more smoking during company time. But to fire them because they do it at home or off company time. That doesn't seem right.

 

drifter106

Golden Member
Mar 14, 2004
1,261
57
91
This is all the more reason for me to want retirement and a fishing pole and let the rest of the world fester in a pool of discontent. Our present day society is at best its own worst nightmare.
 

Terumo

Banned
Jan 23, 2005
575
0
0
Originally posted by: drifter106
This is all the more reason for me to want retirement and a fishing pole and let the rest of the world fester in a pool of discontent. Our present day society is at best its own worst nightmare.

Amen!

 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
Originally posted by: Blazin Trav
Firing on bias? Isn't there a law against that?

what this company is doing is illegal in about 30 states.

it isn't illegal in Michigan, unfortunately.

 

element

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,635
0
0
slippery slope....

Did you walk outside of your house today? You could have gotten hurt. You could get run over by a bus, get hit in the head by a meteor, or an anvil can come crashing down on your head. Ever watch cartoons? Those anvils are everywhere.

[trump voice]You're Fired![/trump voice]
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,932
1,113
126
Originally posted by: Triumph
Obesity not a choice? How the F did you come up with that one? The percentage of the obese population who is actually obese due to no fault of their own, is probably 0.01% (some sort of hormonal imbalance or something like that). Insignificant. All the rest, being obese is just as much of a choice as being a smoker.

Well, he didn't make a logical fallacy there.

He said smoking is always a choice, which is correct. He also said that obesity is not always a choice, which is also correct and backed up by your post.

Obesity is a case where you could not make "zero-tolerance" laws because there are going to be some people that are naturally obese.

 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,457
16,033
146
I'm still wondering where people are getting the idea they have a "right to be employed."

I'm also wondering why your desire for employment on your terms trumps the freedom of the employer to hire and fire who they please.

Trust me, ban this and the employers will simply fabricate a reason to fire you or "lay you off" if they don't like you. And you all know you'd do the same damn thing if you were in their shoes.

Please explain to me why an employer should ever be forced to employ someone they do not want, or like. And if they lose that freedom, can we turn around and give them the fredom to force you to work for them against your will?
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,480
8,340
126
Just a quick little note - under group health insurance plans - which many large employers are on - you CAN NOT charge higher premiums to overweight people or smokers. Everyone pays the same premiums.

Life insurance and some individual health insurance plans can and do charge higher premiums for overweight people, smokers and men.

I've seen a couple people saying "smokers already do pay more for their habits"...no, they don't. At least not under group health plans like most of us are under.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,457
16,033
146
Originally posted by: vi_edit
Just a quick little note - under group health insurance plans - which many large employers are on - you CAN NOT charge higher premiums to overweight people or smokers. Everyone pays the same premiums.

Life insurance and some individual health insurance plans can and do charge higher premiums for overweight people, smokers and men.

I've seen a couple people saying "smokers already do pay more for their habits"...no, they don't. At least not under group health plans like most of us are under.

Is this all group plans, or just one that you're familiar with? I believe the plan I have with my employees asks for all pre-existing medical conditions and risk factors such as smoking, obesity, alcoholism, etc., and the rate is adjusted accordingly.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,480
8,340
126
Is this all group plans, or just one that you're familiar with? I believe the plan I have with my employees asks for all pre-existing medical conditions and risk factors such as smoking, obesity, alcoholism, etc., and the rate is adjusted accordingly.

Are you sure you aren't confusing the elective life insurance that may be included in your plan.

My wife has taken a couple semesters worth of hospital economics and the in & outs of health care coverage and was very adament that insurance providers under group plans can not charge more for unhealthy people on an individual basis.

That doesn't mean that they can't can't raise the rates as a whole though when they re-up their plans. But they can't charge more to specific people.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,480
8,340
126
Amused, I don't know if you do your benefits administration yourself, or if you outsource that to someone else...but check and see what your are doing on payroll deductions for health insurance.

Every person on the single coverage plan should be paying the same rates - smoker or not - overweight or not.

This isn't to say that your group plan can't raise premiums BECAUSE OF claims brought on by smokers or the obese and their related health problems...but the company can't specifically single them out to pay higher premiums.
 

Zepper

Elite Member
May 1, 2001
18,998
0
0
OT - belongs in P & N...
Who would want to work for such a constipated-minded PC (politically correct aka ignorant) management anyway? I hope those employees get a good attorney and sue that company into the ground!
. Unless being a non-smoker was part of the employees' terms of employment at hiring, the management hasn't a leg to stand on.

.bh.
 

dabuddha

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
19,579
17
81
Originally posted by: Zepper
OT - belongs in P & N...
Who would want to work for such a constipated-minded PC (politically correct aka ignorant) management anyway? I hope those employees get a good attorney and sue that company into the ground!
. Unless being a non-smoker was part of the employees' terms of employment at hiring, the management hasn't a leg to stand on.

.bh.

How are they being PC?
 

cornelp

Member
Nov 29, 2004
83
0
0
Originally posted by: Hammer
Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: Uppsala9496
This has class action lawsuit written all over it. You CAN NOT discriminate against someone for health reasons at a job unless the health issue prevents them from performing the job. So, terminating someone because they smoke and saying it has to do with higher health costs is illegal.
Sorry, have to fire you because you just came down with breast cancer and we can't afford the associated health costs. Yep, your fired too since you have a family history of heart disease. And you. You are fired because you just had a premature baby and that is going to cost us $100,000. Oh, and all you women are fired because you too might get pregnant and have premy babies.........
And no, I am not a smoker. Personally I find it revolting, but to blatantly discriminate against a class of people like that is beyond illegal. "At will" state or not!

Did you guys actually READ the article? It said they were fired for REFUSING to take a test to determine whether they smoke cigarettes. This is no different than if you are asked to take a test to determine whether you have recently done drugs. Chances are that the policy was clearly defined in their contracts as a term of employment. There is nothing here to make anyone think that this has any illegitimacy to it whatsoever.

Jason

Do you not understand that drugs are illegal and smoking is LEGAL. It doesnt matter if it was in the employee handbook or if they signed a piece of paper, the employee still has his civil rights. The employeer has no business telling an employee if he can smoke a cig, cigar or pipe on his own time.

sorry, but you're wrong.


I agree with Citrix. The company did not fire the people because they smoke. They fired them because they did not take the test. Think about it. If a company says today U are due for a drug screening test, and U say NO, what U think is gonna happen next? U will be waiting in the un-employment line. The law-suit may not stand due to the fact that a coorporation has the right to screen its employees for different thing, BUT at the same time, they had to right to screen for smoking. They could go back and say they wanted to screen for other things, but then again nobody really knows the truth.
The fact of the matter is that the employees has rights too, and those rights are being taken away slowly and slowly. If U really want to talk about this, think about THIS for a moment:

When U go and take a firefighter test from your local office, they look and see if U smoke, and if U do, chances are U wont get the job, BUT if U dont, and AFTER U get hired, U start smoking again, nobody does nothing, but smoking prevents U as a firefighter to do your job 100%. Nobody is saying anything bout that now, do they.

If U are a police officer, and U dont smoke and U are in shape, but then after U get on the force, U start smoking and U start adding on the weight, both of which prevents U as a police office to do your job, nobody does nothing.

If U have other diseases and work for a company, which U use your health care insurance and cost the company $$$$$, then should those people be fired too? I mean they use company insurance and cost them $$$$$$ of dollars to resolve their health problems, so they should be fired too, right? Yeah, right, give me a break.

There can be thousands and thousands of different scenarios, but each one is different. This article is CORRECT and they have the right to fire them, not because they smoke, but because they failed to take a company test which they require. But here comes the bad part which will stand in court. If nobody else was tested or asked to be tested, then it becomes a big lawsuit, which the employees will win.
Now, if they would have taken the test, and THEN they were fired cause they found from the tests that they smoke, THEN they had a GOOD chance they could win 100%, hands down.

U discriminate against certain people that do things they like/want/whatever. If that is the case, then all those people that do things to prevent them from doing their jobs should be fired too, right? Hmmmm, sounds fishy.

This is just a start. The companies now a days do things so that they can start something so other companies follows.

If U want to raise the price of healthcare of those that smoke, then raise the price of healthcare for those that have deseases too, for those that use the insurance too much, for women that have kids every year, for those that DRINK at home and they start having problems with their liver, for those that have small kids with problems and use the insurance to take care of their families. There are soo many different problems out there, and if U want to raise the price of those that smoke, then heck, raise the price for everyone that uses the insurance, I mean thats what its for, to use the insurance, right?
Have insurance, but dont use it. Use the insurance, but costs go up. Whats next?

The fact of the matter is that its against company rules to decline a test by any company. Take the test and then if they fire U cause of smoking, THEN U go and sue them.

It is NOT against the law to smoke. What U do in your own time its your problem. Heck, next thing U know, they tell U that U cant drink while U at home, U cant eat certain foods, U cant watch certain movies, etc etc. Heck this is another one of those "I WANT TO RULE YOUR LIVES" type of deal.


Pretty soon U wont be able to do jack, and thats when people wake up and realize the mistakes they made.

Smoker, no smoker, drink, no drink, obesse, no obesse, heart problems, no heart problems, it does not matter, everyone is equal and should have the same healthcare opportunities.

This is just my OPINION, so plz, no attacks are needed. Everyone is allowed to have their opinion, and nobody really knows the real truth as to what happened. In reality, they may have had other reasons to screening them, who knows.

If I pissed off others with certain comments, I apologize ahead of time, as this was/is not my intension(s).
Just my 2 cents...


 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: episodic
http://www.channelcincinnati.c...ws/4125477/detail.html


Quote: "A Michigan health care company has fired four of its employees for refusing to take a test to determine whether they smoke cigarettes."


I can understand the company owner's perspective here. ..

Thoughts?
I don't smoke, I hate smoking (note I said I hate smoking not smokers), and even I think this is wrong. If they're going to fire smokers they should also fire anyone who drinks or is overweight as a result of poor diet and/or lack of exercise.

The company I used to work at had slightly higher premiums for smokers as opposed to non-smokers. IMO that's fair. I'm in the "could definitely lose a few lbs club" and I wouldn't have minded them charging overweight people more. Being overweight and smoking are both health risks and in the long run will probably lead to higher costs for the insurance company.
 

Sundog

Lifer
Nov 20, 2000
12,342
1
0


From HR NEWS:



Michigan company draws fire for terminating smokers
By Steve Bates

A Michigan health care company has come under criticism for firing or forcing out all of its workers who smoke, even those who do so in their own homes and on their own time.

Weyco Inc. <http://www.weyco.com/web/>, a benefit services company based in Okemos, Mich., gave employees 15 months? warning, offered smoking cessation assistance to employees who smoke and eventually terminated workers who refused to take a nicotine test to prove that they are tobacco-free.

Company officials say they want a healthy workforce and are willing to take criticism for what they believe is an important principle. ?We?re not telling you you can?t smoke,? said Weyco Chief Financial Officer Gary Climes. ?We?re telling you you can?t smoke and work here.?

Climes told HR News that although the policy was designed in part to cut down on the company?s soaring health care costs, ?our main goal is to improve the health status of our employees. There definitely are cost issues involved,? he added. ?We?re just exercising our right under the law.?

Climes said he could not determine exactly how many company employees resigned between October 2003, when the policy was announced, and Jan. 1, 2005, when it took full effect. Some who smoked and who left might have had multiple reasons. However, he said four people were forced out in recent weeks after refusing to take a nicotine test.

The company?s actions?and similar moves by a small number of other organizations?raise significant legal and social issues, say legal experts and others familiar with the practice. Among them: How far can and should a company go to cut its health care costs? How far should it go to try to protect the health of its workers against their will? What other legal activities might become conditions for termination? Occasional social drinking? Gaining a few extra pounds? Engaging in risky hobbies such as skydiving?

And, of course, is Weyco?s action legal?

Few court precedents

Legal experts say that few court decisions have addressed such company policies. However, they say that in states such as Michigan, where there is no smokers? rights legislation on the books, Weyco?s policy and practices might be legal.

?There?s legal discrimination and there?s illegal discrimination,? said Peter J. Petesch, an employment attorney who is a partner at Ford & Harrison LLP in Washington, D.C. Unless the company?s actions can be shown to violate a specific state or federal law?such as discriminating against a protected class, on the basis of race or religion or the like?it might be difficult for employees and applicants to challenge them successfully in court.

?Although we might feel a sense of moral outrage when a class of people is discriminated against,? said Petesch, ?it may very well be legal. There have been common-law theories advanced? in the effort to have groups such as smokers protected by job bias laws, but ?they have not necessarily been successful.?

Weyco?s Climes, a former smoker himself who knows ?how hard it is to quit,? said that ?our legal counsel reviewed this very closely.?

However, Edwin G. Foulke, an employment attorney with the Greenville, S.C, office of law firm Jackson Lewis LLP and a former chair of the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Review Commission, said Weyco?s actions could raise issues under the federal Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).

?I wouldn?t be surprised to see somebody litigate this issue,? he stated. Jury members weighing such a policy ?might ask themselves, ?Is this really fair?? ? he said.

Twenty-nine states have smokers? rights laws. At the same time, many states have laws banning smoking in most workplaces, setting up the potential for confusion and conflict about what workers can do?and where. Some laws and company policies extend smoking bans to outdoor property such as parking lots, and some even try to keep people who have been smoking in the previous two hours from entering a building and bringing some of the haze in with them.

According to the National Law Journal, the Union Pacific railroad company announced last year that it was implementing a no-smoking policy for all employees, both on and off company property. The firm said it questions potential hires about smoking. And Alaska Airlines reportedly has a similar policy, requiring job applicants to pass a nicotine test.

The National Law Journal noted that in a 1987 court case the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the right of the Oklahoma City Fire Department to have a no-smoking policy, finding that the rule had a legitimate purpose in promoting health and safety.

But at a private-sector employer whose workers tend to work in offices, a policy barring all smokers appears to be ?extremely drastic,? said Peter P. Fornal, president of Human Resource Consultants in East Greenwich, R.I., and a member of the Society for Human Resource Management?s Employee Relations Panel.

?This is the wrong path?

?It?s punitive as opposed to being positive,? said Fornal. ?If we want to empower and energize our employees, this is the wrong path.?

Some organizations are addressing the financial and health costs of smoking in different ways, such as rewarding workers for healthy behavior rather than punishing them for unhealthy habits such as smoking.

And, in fact, Climes said Weyco?s no-smoking policy is just part of an overall wellness program that does offer incentives for workers to stay or become fit. The firm?s ?lifestyle challenge? pays workers cash for lowering their blood pressure or improving flexibility, and the company pays up to $45 per month toward employee memberships in health clubs.

?We are in the employee benefit business,? said Climes, adding that ?we knew that, being the leader we?d take some heat? for the novel policy. The company?s actions have been debated in recent newspaper articles and on The Today Show on Jan. 26.

The official company policy is that ?Weyco Inc. is a non-smoking company that strongly supports its employees in living healthy lifestyles,? according to the Weyco web site. ?We have a flexible, family-friendly work environment and we offer a competitive salary, complete benefits package and ample opportunity to grow professionally.?

Said CEO Howard Weyers, ?We?re doing this for our company. Our intent here is to improve the health status of our employees. That?s what we set out to do.

?We told people that we would help them? become tobacco-free if they so desired and that a full-time coach on the company staff would assist them with other health-related issues.

Weyco stopped hiring people who smoke in 2003. Climes said everyone on the payroll was tested in January of this year?right up to the CEO. Seven positive tests came back from a breath test. Follow-up urine tests cleared those employees.

Existing employees will be subject to spot nicotine tests at any time. Any who fail will be suspended but permitted to enter a smoking cessation program. A second failed test will result in termination, said Climes.

He noted that as many as 20 Weyco employees have taken advantage of company-paid smoking cessation programs and have become tobacco-free since the policy was unveiled in 2003. ?That?s the success factor,? he commented.

To date, no legal action has surfaced from former employees of the company. However, the issue is likely to remain in the headlines, suggested attorney Petesch.

?What we?re seeing now is a growth in the regulation of off-work behavior that some employers have decided is antithetical to being a good employee for the organization,? he said.

Commented attorney Foulke: ?The question is: Where does it stop??
Steve Bates is managing editor of HR News. He can be reached at sbates@shrm.org <mailto:sbates@shrm.org>.
 

Uppsala9496

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 2001
5,272
19
81
Originally posted by: Hammer
Originally posted by: Uppsala9496
Originally posted by: Hammer
Originally posted by: Uppsala9496
Originally posted by: Slvrtg277
Originally posted by: Uppsala9496
Originally posted by: Slvrtg277
I'm not sure what to think about this one. I know that a "right-to-hire" state can fire an employee out of the blue and not have to give a reason for it. I work in such a state. BUT, if I were to get fired, I would have to try to prove that they fired me illegally somehow (race, etc.).

This company isn't firing employees with no reason given. They are blatantly giving the reason as a perfectly legal activity that these people engage in outside of the workplace. That being the case, maybe these employees DO have a case.


BTW - I am not a smoker and I am the first to complain about people smoking right outside the doors of any building where I have to walk through it to get in or out. I hate it. But damn...this kind of discrimination just doesn't seem right.

Right to hire/at will.....all the terminated employee has to say is wrongful termination. If they are over 40, they can make an ADA related claim. Of non-caucasian heritage, national origin, race claim. Non-male, sex claim. There are a variey of claims the terminated can make regardless of an at will state. Right to hire/at will states are not allowed to terminate someone for discriminatory reasons. That is illegal.


Yes I know. The point that I'm on the fence about though is whether or not it would be discriminatory to fire someone because they smoke. All of those discriminatory claims are based on things which the employee has no control over. Smoking doesn't necessarily fall into this category, like race, sex, age, handicap, etc.


Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990

(b) Relationship to other laws. - Nothing in this chapter shall be
construed to invalidate or limit the remedies, rights, and procedures of
any Federal law or law of any State or political subdivision of any State
or jurisdiction that provides greater or equal protection for the rights
of individuals with disabilities than are afforded by this chapter.
Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to preclude the prohibition of,
or the imposition of restrictions on, smoking in places of employment
covered by subchapter I of this chapter [title I], in
transportation covered by subchapter II or III of this chapter [title
II or III], or in places of public accommodation covered by subchapter
III of this chapter [title III].

So, as you can see, they can in fact bring suit under the ADA 1990. It is enough for them to be able to bring suit. I'm not saying they will won or not, but they can bring suit.


the ADA doesn't apply. all that's saying is that the restrictions on drugs and other controlled substances referenced in title I don't apply to smoking. it doesn't say smoking is a disability.

this firing is perfectly acceptable in certain states. i'm not familiar with michigan state law which is the only law that applies in this case

Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to preclude the prohibition of,
or the imposition of restrictions on, smoking in places of employment
covered by subchapter I of this chapter [title I], in
transportation covered by subchapter II or III of this chapter [title
II or III], or in places of public accommodation covered by subchapter
III of this chapter [title III].

Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to preclude the prohibition of,


did you read title I?
Notice the point that the senior member from Jackson Lewis brought up? ADA. But then again, what do I know...........

 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
This company is going to be in a world of hurt. Even without touching on the legalities of this, they have already lost in the eyes of many customers. Negative press hurts the company even if it's found to have done nothing wrong.

Another huge problem for them is the possibility that the tobacco industry might decide to back up the employees who decide to sue. Obviously it's in the tobacco companies' best interest not to allow companies to ban smokers- it can only make them lose money. Again, without commenting on the outcome of the case, just the act of getting sued costs you money. The tobacco industry has very deep pockets and can afford to draw the case out for as long as they can. Large corporations often do this to smaller companies to rack up their legal fees.

Regardless of whether this company prevails in the end or not, they're going to take a beating.
 

funboy6942

Lifer
Nov 13, 2001
15,308
393
126
Originally posted by: Wanescotting
So what about the employees that engage in unprotected sex? What about the employees that are obese?



Where would it stop?

Tottaly agree. If they win this then fat, sick, and even skinny people are going to suffer.
 
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