good god, get over yourself and the name of the degree(s) you have.
Soon there will be political science majors talking about how proud they are of being "scientists".
Originally posted by: schizoid
If I sound self-agrandizing, it's because, for whatever reason, precious few people really understand what the S in CS means, or what it's like to actually be a part of that. Not that that's a bad thing, really, just frustrating sometimes.
Originally posted by: schizoid
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: schizoid
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: schizoid
Sigh.
You people, I swear....
I got a BS in CS. What did that qualify me to do? Nothing, really. I didn't know any Java (still really don't), my C++ was weak, and I did zero programming for Windows. So, what could I do?
I WAS A FREAKIN' SCIENTIST, YOU DOLTS!
If you wanna be a "programmer", go get your moms to buy you a Barnes and Nobles giftcard. If you got the chops, you'll get a job.
If a degree is important to you, get a CS degree. It'll help, but you'll still need the chops to get (and keep) a job.
Realize that most of your hardware classes are meaningless. I tiny fraction of people actually do anything even remotely related to hardware. Most EE people end up doing systems level stuff (controls, etc). Those jobs exist...so, in that sense, maybe EE is the way to go.
But as for a "ranking" of EE vs. CS vs. CSE, there really isn't one. I'm getting my PhD in CS because I enjoy being a scientist. Being a code grunt, or a engineering monkey has no appeal for me. So, regardless of whether you want to do software or systems, if you like being a scientist, there's no reason not to get a CS degree.
The reality is, 95% of your coursework will be meaningless in the context of your job anyway. Employers want to know that you're a hard worker, that you can pick up new ideas, and that you can work in a team environment and follow directions.
So, yeah...and besides...engineers are grunts.
what school did you get your BS in? i completely understand and agree with your sentiments about the science part of computer science, but it seems to me that most modern departments would give their graduates at least some proficiency in prgramming.
Ameesh? Take notes. You could learn a thing or two from Gopunk.
I do know how to program. I coded up a freakin' command line interpreter for the lambda calculus in ML. Does this help one get a job? No. Not in the least. I can also code in Prolog, Lisp, and a host of other things that don't really have any practical applications outside of academia (I'm okay with this, seeing as I don't want to be outside of academia. But I digress...
I've learned, at one point, just about every nook and cranny there is in C++. I don't really remember much of it, and, honestly, the last time I tried to use templates, I think the code exploded in my face.
I can also deal with complex Markov chains and have been known to solve the occasional MMp1 queuing model.
As for Java, it was simply a matter of timing. My first ever CS class, in the fall if 1996 was in Pascal. It was switched to C approximately 6 months later. I didn't actually "get" to C++ until the end of my sophomore year, in a data structures class. It was almost a year later, in a programming languages class, that we covered serious C++ (this was winter 99). All my networks classes were in C or C++. A year after I'd taken them, they were changed to java.
UC Davis, where I went to school, won't touch Windows.
My senior year, I took a grad seminar in database integration, and I had to code up a Java front end for the XML-ql query engine. Swing wasn't even standardized at that point. I just took some other code, hacked away at it until I got it to vaguely do what I want.
This semester, (at USC, where I'm doing my PhD) I modified some agent code that was in Java.
So, would I say I know Java? No, not at all. Could I learn it as well as anyone else on the plannet in a matter of days? Sure. Will I ever bother? No, not likely.
Like I said, I'd rather tinker around with POMDPs.
I think you get aroused by considering yourself a scientist. That's fitting considering you called everyone else a dolt and admitted you received a degree and were weak in its functional manifestations. That would be like Einstein saying he understood the principle of relativity pictorially, but he just couldn't quite get the math worked out.
Anyway, simma down
Uh, your analogy is a bit off there, but I see your point.
Yes, I am, in fact, quite proud of being a scientist. Functional manifestations? Depends on what you mean by functional, I guess.
Would I be as good as the next guy working in some cube farm in some god-forsaken campus in Silicon valley? Off the bat? No. Could I learn? I guess. Would I ever want to? No.
If I sound self-agrandizing, it's because, for whatever reason, precious few people really understand what the S in CS means, or what it's like to actually be a part of that. Not that that's a bad thing, really, just frustrating sometimes.
Originally posted by: Descartes
I think you get aroused by considering yourself a scientist. That's fitting considering you called everyone else a dolt and admitted you received a degree and were weak in its functional manifestations. That would be like Einstein saying he understood the principle of relativity pictorially, but he just couldn't quite get the math worked out.
Anyway, simma down
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes.
In their capacity as a tool, computers will be but a ripple on the surface of our culture. In their capacity as intellectual challenge, they are without precedent in the cultural history of mankind.
Just out of curiosity, why do you feel CS is a science? Let us not consider the mere name of the discipline, for it could be a misnomer like other "sciences."
Originally posted by: gopunk
Originally posted by: Descartes
I think you get aroused by considering yourself a scientist. That's fitting considering you called everyone else a dolt and admitted you received a degree and were weak in its functional manifestations. That would be like Einstein saying he understood the principle of relativity pictorially, but he just couldn't quite get the math worked out.
Anyway, simma down
i dunno, it seems to me that computer science as a field, is afflicted with dual identities. on one hand, you have the "science" part of "computer science"... people like dijkstra to whom the following quotes are attributable:
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes.
In their capacity as a tool, computers will be but a ripple on the surface of our culture. In their capacity as intellectual challenge, they are without precedent in the cultural history of mankind.
and of course, on the other, we have a bunch of programmers... obviously these two pursuits are related, but can't really be lumped together by anyone with any knowledge of the fields. sometimes it makes me wonder if it should be split up into two closely related fields, much like physic and applied physics, or math and applied mathematics are.
as for einstein, i think of the difference more like that of a theoretical physicist and an experimental one. einstein was the former, from what i've heard... he wasn't that great at lab experiments.
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: gopunk
Ironically, astronomy is a lot about computers these days and not so much about telescopes (in terms of use)
It seems there is so little actual science being performed in CS these days, and almost every pervasive idea in use today is not only non-scientific, but commercial and carried out without any regard for a scientific process. I've rather lost interest in CS for this very reason, and my future pursuits will be in other sciences.
Descartes, its funny.... I'm in a completely unrelated field (Engineering Mechanics), but I use computers on an everyday basis to solve plasticity problems. And because of the computational difficulty (and the non-parallelizable nature of the problem), I've had to seek out help from "computer scientists" quite often--to see how to improve the algorithms in my code. Not just programming style (that I can learn from a book), but the physical algorithms themselves (using Adams-Moulton as opposed to central-difference.... matrix solution schemes.... integration schemes, etc). And I've found that a LOT of what used to be done in "computer science" in the 60s and 70s (when a lot of modern techniques were developed) is done in "applied mathematics" departments now (or "computational mathematics" departments).
It seems there is so little actual science being performed in CS these days, and almost every pervasive idea in use today is not only non-scientific, but commercial and carried out without any regard for a scientific process. I've rather lost interest in CS for this very reason, and my future pursuits will be in other sciences.
Originally posted by: HokieESM
Originally posted by: Descartes
Ironically, astronomy is a lot about computers these days and not so much about telescopes (in terms of use)
It seems there is so little actual science being performed in CS these days, and almost every pervasive idea in use today is not only non-scientific, but commercial and carried out without any regard for a scientific process. I've rather lost interest in CS for this very reason, and my future pursuits will be in other sciences.
Descartes, its funny.... I'm in a completely unrelated field (Engineering Mechanics), but I use computers on an everyday basis to solve plasticity problems. And because of the computational difficulty (and the non-parallelizable nature of the problem), I've had to seek out help from "computer scientists" quite often--to see how to improve the algorithms in my code. Not just programming style (that I can learn from a book), but the physical algorithms themselves (using Adams-Moulton as opposed to central-difference.... matrix solution schemes.... integration schemes, etc). And I've found that a LOT of what used to be done in "computer science" in the 60s and 70s (when a lot of modern techniques were developed) is done in "applied mathematics" departments now (or "computational mathematics" departments).
Originally posted by: gopunk
Just out of curiosity, why do you feel CS is a science? Let us not consider the mere name of the discipline, for it could be a misnomer like other "sciences."
i'm not him, but i feel it is a science... i personally feel it's self-evident. would you consider mathematics to be a science?
biology, chemistry, etc are sciences because researchers in those fields are attaining knowledge, discovering new things about a world, formulating hypothesis and testing them out. the same can be said of mathematics and computer science. the only difference is that the world in which they work is in the world of logic, instead of the physical one.
Originally posted by: gopunk
It seems there is so little actual science being performed in CS these days, and almost every pervasive idea in use today is not only non-scientific, but commercial and carried out without any regard for a scientific process. I've rather lost interest in CS for this very reason, and my future pursuits will be in other sciences.
hmmm, i dont' know, i have to disagree... i'm sure if you've been working in industry for a while, that's what you would see. but as a student at a university, that's not what i've seen. certainly, a lot of the research has potential commercial application (which is often necessary for funding), but even that research usually has academic merit. and lets not forget the theory groups in all computer science departments...
Originally posted by: Descartes
Originally posted by: gopunk
Just out of curiosity, why do you feel CS is a science? Let us not consider the mere name of the discipline, for it could be a misnomer like other "sciences."
i'm not him, but i feel it is a science... i personally feel it's self-evident. would you consider mathematics to be a science?
biology, chemistry, etc are sciences because researchers in those fields are attaining knowledge, discovering new things about a world, formulating hypothesis and testing them out. the same can be said of mathematics and computer science. the only difference is that the world in which they work is in the world of logic, instead of the physical one.
I've given it some thought, and I find myself in a rather conflicted state. I feel that CS is more about idealism than empiricism, and I feel the latter attribute is what truly makes a science. The software world has a great wealth of ideas, but so many (all?) of them are without the ability quantify or falsify, and thus are generally regarded as more artistic expressions. I can appreciate that, but similarly to how so many scientists dismissed Feynman's probabilistic studies of light, I have a hard time deriving scientific pleasure from a foundation built upon idealism.
Originally posted by: jaydee
That could possibly be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Tell me you don't honestly believe that.Originally posted by: Ranger X
Of the several EE friends that I had, one with an impressive GPA ended up working for a lowballing Taiwanese company, the other one went into sales, and the other one ended up going to grad school because he couldn't find a job (mind you, he was actively searching for a year and a half). If you get a BSEE, it's worthless. Now if you're speaking MSEE, that's another a whole new ballpark. MSEE's can find jobs where they can actually apply their knowledge instead of doing some mindless task like BSEE's.Originally posted by: jaydee
If you want to keep your options open and maintain your interest, I suggest a change to EE.
Originally posted by: Elemental007
Originally posted by: Ranger X
Of the several EE friends that I had, one with an impressive GPA ended up working for a lowballing Taiwanese company, the other one went into sales, and the other one ended up going to grad school because he couldn't find a job (mind you, he was actively searching for a year and a half). If you get a BSEE, it's worthless. Now if you're speaking MSEE, that's another a whole new ballpark. MSEE's can find jobs where they can actually apply their knowledge instead of doing some mindless task like BSEE's.Originally posted by: jaydee
If you want to keep your options open and maintain your interest, I suggest a change to EE.
4 years for any technical area is insufficient. The same holds true for chemistry, CompE, aerospace, etc. The guys at IBM that came and talked to us said that lab work is the extent of a lot of BSEEs for this reason.
CompE is the same way. Think you're going to be designing video chipsets wth a Bachelors?
Although your first-hand account is not statistically valid. *most* BSEEs find $50K jobs within 4 months of graduating.
Originally posted by: OS
Originally posted by: Elemental007
Originally posted by: Ranger X
Of the several EE friends that I had, one with an impressive GPA ended up working for a lowballing Taiwanese company, the other one went into sales, and the other one ended up going to grad school because he couldn't find a job (mind you, he was actively searching for a year and a half). If you get a BSEE, it's worthless. Now if you're speaking MSEE, that's another a whole new ballpark. MSEE's can find jobs where they can actually apply their knowledge instead of doing some mindless task like BSEE's.Originally posted by: jaydee
If you want to keep your options open and maintain your interest, I suggest a change to EE.
4 years for any technical area is insufficient. The same holds true for chemistry, CompE, aerospace, etc. The guys at IBM that came and talked to us said that lab work is the extent of a lot of BSEEs for this reason.
CompE is the same way. Think you're going to be designing video chipsets wth a Bachelors?
Although your first-hand account is not statistically valid. *most* BSEEs find $50K jobs within 4 months of graduating.
Do yourself a favor and do a search in google for "electrical engineer employment rate". The first link that came up for me was an IEEE news article that says "Unemployment Rate for Electrical Engineers Skyrockets to Record Level"
Well you've got to actively look for opportunities and be able to market yourself as well. In the sense that you graduate and sit at home waiting for someone to call and offer you a job, then yes, I will conceed that the piece of paper with BSEE on it from No-name State College is near worthless by itself (not speaking about anyone here in particular).Originally posted by: OS
Originally posted by: jaydee
That could possibly be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Tell me you don't honestly believe that.Originally posted by: Ranger X
Of the several EE friends that I had, one with an impressive GPA ended up working for a lowballing Taiwanese company, the other one went into sales, and the other one ended up going to grad school because he couldn't find a job (mind you, he was actively searching for a year and a half). If you get a BSEE, it's worthless. Now if you're speaking MSEE, that's another a whole new ballpark. MSEE's can find jobs where they can actually apply their knowledge instead of doing some mindless task like BSEE's.Originally posted by: jaydee
If you want to keep your options open and maintain your interest, I suggest a change to EE.
For the most part it's true. Atleast for the forseeable future. I have a BSEE, comfortably 3+ GPA and I have had no offers for a technical/design position for the 9 months since I have graduated.
Of course, whenever I say this, the next question is, what experience do I have? I don't have any directly related work experience. Then they say, see, that's your problem. Of course, this only reinforces my point that the BSEE degree by itself is pretty much worthless in the current state.
I was going to grad school, for MSEE, but I am going to drop out now. It doesn't make sense for me to squander any more time and money in an education that can't pay for itself.
Originally posted by: jaydee
Well you've got to actively look for opportunities and be able to market yourself as well. In the sense that you graduate and sit at home waiting for someone to call and offer you a job, then yes, I will conceed that the piece of paper with BSEE on it from No-name State College is near worthless by itself (not speaking about anyone here in particular).
engineeringjobs.com There are thousands of companies listed there that hire EE's. Not all of them have positions available, but it never hurts to send a cover letter and resume. The co-op job I have right now had "no positions available" when I got a job from them. They didn't even have any EE's on staff when I was hired (and still don't). How'd I get the job? My Aunt works there (that helped). Life's not always fair, you might as well use it to your advantage. Look for alums from your school, family members, friends, business contacts you (should have) made over the years, professors, ect. Being proactive goes a hell of a long way.
And why have you limited yourself to technical/design positions?
It is an absured notion to me, that someone will the qualifications you've described yourself with, is unhirable in the EE field today and I refuse to accept it.
Originally posted by: khlee
im suprised alot of ppl actually think that CE is better than CS.
at most schools the difference is only 3-4 classes!
and 3-4 classes doesnt mean $hit. cs = ce, as far as im concerned.
Originally posted by: OS
Originally posted by: jaydee
Well you've got to actively look for opportunities and be able to market yourself as well. In the sense that you graduate and sit at home waiting for someone to call and offer you a job, then yes, I will conceed that the piece of paper with BSEE on it from No-name State College is near worthless by itself (not speaking about anyone here in particular).
engineeringjobs.com There are thousands of companies listed there that hire EE's. Not all of them have positions available, but it never hurts to send a cover letter and resume. The co-op job I have right now had "no positions available" when I got a job from them. They didn't even have any EE's on staff when I was hired (and still don't). How'd I get the job? My Aunt works there (that helped). Life's not always fair, you might as well use it to your advantage. Look for alums from your school, family members, friends, business contacts you (should have) made over the years, professors, ect. Being proactive goes a hell of a long way.
And why have you limited yourself to technical/design positions?
It is an absured notion to me, that someone will the qualifications you've described yourself with, is unhirable in the EE field today and I refuse to accept it.
Of course I didn't sit around waiting for a job to come to me, what kind of fool would expect a response that way in this economy? I've used many major websites, my campus career center, asked everyone I know who is currently works as an engineer. I've asked friends and family to personally hand my resume to the HR departments at their work. I've gotten a few interviews, but no offers. Yes, my resume has been reviewed a dozen different times by various people and any more changes realistically is not going get me better results. My cousin keeps saying every couple weeks, keep trying at his place and that they're still trying to get me onboard. Yeah right, it's been almost a year now, I'm through with that game.
I've spoken to several people who are on the inside and involved in the hiring process. They say their offices are swamped with resumes and responses. Even companies that do have listings tell me straight up many openings aren't considered critical needs and they are in no rush to hire. I'm not going to bother looking any more. The "it doesn't hurt to apply" stops having meaning when you've easily sent out over 100+ resumes and cover letters. At some point it becomes more a waste of time and excercise in futility.
I have however, been working as a sales rep for technology related products the past six months. Nonengineering jobs are actually much easier to find. But I work with dumbasses all day, every day. Do you have any idea how demoralizing it is to work in a office filled with stupid people? To have slaved the 4 years in a difficult cirrculumn when now I work with other people who cruised through college with "marketing" as their major? To be asked the same stupid questions a half dozen by the same retarded coworkers, who for the life of themselves can't find answers on their own? The general mindlessness, unprofessional conduct and lack of planning in this company is appalling, if an engineering office worked like this, you would be delivering products and technology that would fail and kill your customers.
I have no faith in engineering as a career path any more. Thinking about and writing about this gives me a generally disgusted and bitter feeling. I'm not going to bother looking any more. When you count the 9 months I spent job hunting, I want the last 5 years of my life back. I could have done something else with it. I'm thinking about other things now, like med school or starting my own business. I have several technology ideas I'd like to develop, but out of spite, I'm not sure I want to be involved in anything technical any more.