Computer Science Jobs

[SeductivePig]

I'm curious, been evaluating different career paths and I'm starting to think that consulting and traditional IT wouldn't interest me; however, the idea of working in the Tech industry seems exciting.

I don't have a programming background but I have a lot of free time and started to learn Python, which has been fun so far. I want to spend about 18 months learning many languages in depth and see if I could apply for jobs related to what I've learned.

However, I don't want a traditional programming job; was really interested in areas like artificial intelligence, machine learning, or even app development. While I realize that these industries are saturated with highly qualified people, are there still many jobs available at the entry level? What's the pay like?

My background is in EE (have nearly 6 years of experience, non programming consulting background).

Thanks

 

[sdifox]

Nope. All overseas.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

There are plenty of jobs. 99% of them are fairly menial.

AI and Machine Learning are interesting, but the fun stuff is PHD level. Other than that, generally, you're pretty much plugging and chugging things other people have made. I don't really think there is such a thing as an "entry level" AI/ML position. Those positions are all extremely competitive.

18 months is way too short to learn one language in depth, much less many. Choose one, and stick with it.

 

[Carson Dyle]

What's your educational background? If you're an EE, even if you've done no programming in the past, my first instinct would be to say apply software to some area of past experience.

I wouldn't count on being able to work in AI unless you have a good college background, and preferably a graduate degree. Otherwise, I could see migrating into the field if you're able to get hired by a large company and get a few years of experience under your belt, and maybe some additional coursework at the same time.

 

[purbeast0]

learning languages means nothing if you don't know "how" to engineer stuff. i'd go back to basics before worrying about learning languages. as someone said, stick to one language (preferrably an OO one) and use that A LOT and learn the ins and outs of OO in general and how to architect/design stuff. once you do that you will be able to pick up any language with ease. i'm at that point in my career now and it's great. it's fun and rewarding.

as for the stuff you are interested in, i'd say stick to something like C++. it's lower level than a lot of the more modern languages so you will get a better understanding. app development is at higher levels and if you know C++ it will be a piece of cake to create an app.

i have over 10 apps that are pretty simple on the app stores and im a cofounder of a startup and we're launching our public beta within a month probably and the journey has been a lot of fun. i had never done swift prior to last november and now i'm pretty much an expert on it, as well as the ins and outs of how a lot of things ios work.

personally nothing has been as rewarding as seeing this new app come from an idea on paper about 7 months ago into an actual working app that is going to connect people in a way that has never been done before. it's very rewarding.

 

[SeductivePig]

There are plenty of jobs. 99% of them are fairly menial.

AI and Machine Learning are interesting, but the fun stuff is PHD level. Other than that, generally, you're pretty much plugging and chugging things other people have made. I don't really think there is such a thing as an "entry level" AI/ML position. Those positions are all extremely competitive.

18 months is way too short to learn one language in depth, much less many. Choose one, and stick with it.

I'm looking at 18 months as being enough time to get a job in whatever language I choose to learn.. leaning towards Python or Java.

What's your educational background? If you're an EE, even if you've done no programming in the past, my first instinct would be to say apply software to some area of past experience.

I wouldn't count on being able to work in AI unless you have a good college background, and preferably a graduate degree. Otherwise, I could see migrating into the field if you're able to get hired by a large company and get a few years of experience under your belt, and maybe some additional coursework at the same time.

Educational background was in EE.. work in the power sector.

learning languages means nothing if you don't know "how" to engineer stuff. i'd go back to basics before worrying about learning languages. as someone said, stick to one language (preferrably an OO one) and use that A LOT and learn the ins and outs of OO in general and how to architect/design stuff. once you do that you will be able to pick up any language with ease. i'm at that point in my career now and it's great. it's fun and rewarding.

as for the stuff you are interested in, i'd say stick to something like C++. it's lower level than a lot of the more modern languages so you will get a better understanding. app development is at higher levels and if you know C++ it will be a piece of cake to create an app.

i have over 10 apps that are pretty simple on the app stores and im a cofounder of a startup and we're launching our public beta within a month probably and the journey has been a lot of fun. i had never done swift prior to last november and now i'm pretty much an expert on it, as well as the ins and outs of how a lot of things ios work.

personally nothing has been as rewarding as seeing this new app come from an idea on paper about 7 months ago into an actual working app that is going to connect people in a way that has never been done before. it's very rewarding.

Interesting. I will stick to something lower level then.. just have to decide between C++, Java, or Python. See, what you're doing is really interesting to me. I'd like to explore working for a startup.. would lean away from working for a corporation. I want to be working on stuff that's cutting edge and genuinely interesting instead of creating some algorithm for a trading model or something.

 

[maddogchen]

how have you not done programming while taking EE? I always had to program something to test out my components and chips.

 

[SeductivePig]

how have you not done programming while taking EE? I always had to program something to test out my components and chips.

Well I took a course on C programming but that was like 10 years ago. I just avoided programming back then because they were really time intensive courses where I went.

 

[Carson Dyle]

No degree? And when you say "consulting", to me that means you've most likely been bartending or doing seasonal construction jobs while getting the odd EE job a few times a year.

You might want to consider just going back to school.

 

[SeductivePig]

No degree? And when you say "consulting", to me that means you've most likely been bartending or doing seasonal construction jobs while getting the odd EE job a few times a year.

You might want to consider just going back to school.

I'm sorry, what?

Please reread the first post. I have a BA in EE from a well known school and work as an engineering consultant.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Interesting. I will stick to something lower level then.. just have to decide between C++, Java, or Python. See, what you're doing is really interesting to me. I'd like to explore working for a startup.. would lean away from working for a corporation. I want to be working on stuff that's cutting edge and genuinely interesting instead of creating some algorithm for a trading model or something.

The problem is that, the stuff for corporations, that stuff tends to BE the cutting edge. Algorithms for trading models are extraordinarily complex and require extremely skilled programmers to eek out every single cycle of performance out of these models.

On the other hand you have a startup that writes CRUD apps. I don't care, if its written in Backbone, React, Angular, with a Java,Django,PHP backend. They're all just CRUD apps. Unless you get into a specific subset of startups, like ML as a service type stuff, in my personal experience, med to larger companies are the best places to learn stuff. Tons of resources to draw upon

 

[HumblePie]

Been a developer for near 20 years now professionally. I only have a Comp Sci Bachelors degree which is plenty to get a job as a developer.

Chances are that even with a computer science degree you are going to be playing fiddle to someone else's tune unless you get lucky on your own startup. Most startups from starting developers fail though. The rates are pretty horrendous. For every "flappy" bird success app written by a single developer trying to make it big, there are thousands more that don't. Which doesn't mean not to try stuff like that, but don't think to make it big like that either.

Also, if you are aiming for a specific development type, you probably are going to need to go through an internship to get placed somewhere. Want to be a developer at a big game company? work for Apple? work for Microsoft? You are going to have a rough time unless you either know someone already there, or compete for the few internships there available. Those companies rarely higher developer talent outside those avenues. There are just too many wanting to work at such high profile companies to at least put those companies on their resumes.

There are still tons of places to work, but if you aren't willing to relocate, it narrows down your job pool considerably. There are a few "hubs" where there are more developer jobs available, and everywhere else there are a smattering of jobs available. Even then, the hubs draw tons of people there so competition can be fierce at times depending upon the economy and market.

Speaking of which, I am generally beginning to feel the IT and developer job fields are starting to get a bit saturated with people trying to get in these days. Getting harder and harder to find higher paying positions in the field anywhere.


As for the types of jobs the OP is looking for, good look with those if you dont' intern straight into them or know someone that can get you in. Couple of those require PHD level degrees and much of the work is done at research labs in Universities. Although certainly not all of it is done there.

If you are self teaching and looking to land a developer position at a company you probably don't have a prayer of a chance at doing so. Just to be level set. Every where I know won't do a single entry level developer positions with the candidate having at least a computer science degree. You could try to get lucky by developing some random mobile "app" that you try to sell, but chances are you won't make much off it. Did a few of those with a colleague once from my old job for shits and giggles. We were lucky to get like $40 a month per app we put out.

 

[Carson Dyle]

I'm sorry, what?

Please reread the first post. I have a BA in EE from a well known school and work as an engineering consultant.

A BA?

 

[SeductivePig]

A BA?

Typo, was on my phone - BS.

 

[SeductivePig]

Been a developer for near 20 years now professionally. I only a a Comp Sci Bachelors degree which is plenty to get a job as a developer.

Still, you are going to be playing fiddle to someone else's tune unless you get lucky on your own startup. Most startups from starting developers fail though. The rates are pretty horrendous. For every "flappy" bird success app written by a single developer trying to make it big, there are thousands more that don't. Which doesn't mean not to try stuff like that, but don't think to make it big like that either.

Also, if you are aiming for a specific development type, you probably are going to need to go through an internship to get placed somewhere. Want to be a developer at a big game company? work for Apple? work for Microsoft? You are going to have a rough time unless you either know someone already there, or compete for the few internships there available. Those companies rarely higher developer talent outside those avenues. There are just too many wanting to work at such high profile companies to at least put those companies on their resumes.

There are still tons of places to work, but if you aren't willing to relocate, it narrows down your job pool considerably. There are a few "hubs" where there are more developer jobs available, and everywhere else there are a smattering of jobs available. Even then, the hubs draw tons of people there so competition can be fierce at times depending upon the economy and market.

Speaking of which, I am generally beginning to feel the IT and developer job fields are starting to get a bit saturated with people trying to get in these days. Getting harder and harder to find higher paying positions in the field anywhere.


As for the types of jobs the OP is looking for, good look with those if you dont' intern straight into them or know someone that can get you in. Couple of those require PHD level degrees and much of the work is done at research labs in Universities. Although certainly not all of it is done there.

If you are self teaching and looking to land a developer position at a company you probably don't have a prayer of a chance at doing so. Just to be level set. Every where I know won't do a single entry level developer positions with the candidate having at least a computer science degree. You could try to get lucky by developing some random mobile "app" that you try to sell, but chances are you won't make much off it. Did a few of those with a colleague once from my old job for shits and giggles. We were lucky to get like $40 a month per app we put out.

Yea, I imagined competition would be high and qualifications would be up there too.

Based on all this, what would be your recommendation? Consulting/Big Data?

 

[purbeast0]

Speaking of which, I am generally beginning to feel the IT and developer job fields are starting to get a bit saturated with people trying to get in these days. Getting harder and harder to find higher paying positions in the field anywhere.

average/poor developers are a dime a dozen. finding GOOD developers is the tough part. and when you find one, you sure as shit better pay them a good salary, or else they will LOL and skp the offer. the problem is so many companies are not willing to pay for good talent, which is why there are so many shitty software applications out there.

i too also only have a BS in comp sci i think that the software dev field is one field where masters are not really valuable at all unless you're going into a very specific area of it. imo, real world experience is way more valuable and important then earning a masters degree. i'd take someone with 6 years experience over someone with 4 years and a masters 9 out of 10 times.

also, he is right about thinking you will make it big with an app. flappy birds is the 1 in a 1000 lucky one that was just randomly in the store and went viral. for every 1 of those there are 999 that don't do shit. with the 10+ apps i have, i made them for a very niche market that i too am also into so i knew where to advertise them. over the 6-7 years i've had them, they made me enough for a down payment on my house. and all of it is just extra income that is coming in on the side. it's money coming in with no more work really going into it, with the exception of a few hours here and there to update them. however, now they are hardly pulling anything in because when i started, i was the only one doing it for years, then i'd have one competitor or two. now there are like 5 free apps out there that do the same thing so i've pretty much given up on that niche app market i was in.

the new one i'm working on with my startup, we have an actual business model and financial model written on how we plan to monetize and make it a real business and make money off of it. we have an advertising strategy in place once we go beta so we have a real plan in place. we also think it has the ability to go viral and/or be HUGE because it has the opportunity to completely change a HUGE market in the app space. it's really exciting being this close. once we launch in beta, and if it gains a lot of interest and gains traction, we are going to try and seek seed funding and turn it into a real business. so we have some exciting times coming up in the real near future.

 

[SeductivePig]

average/poor developers are a dime a dozen. finding GOOD developers is the tough part. and when you find one, you sure as shit better pay them a good salary, or else they will LOL and skp the offer. the problem is so many companies are not willing to pay for good talent, which is why there are so many shitty software applications out there.

i too also only have a BS in comp sci i think that the software dev field is one field where masters are not really valuable at all unless you're going into a very specific area of it. imo, real world experience is way more valuable and important then earning a masters degree. i'd take someone with 6 years experience over someone with 4 years and a masters 9 out of 10 times.

also, he is right about thinking you will make it big with an app. flappy birds is the 1 in a 1000 lucky one that was just randomly in the store and went viral. for every 1 of those there are 999 that don't do shit. with the 10+ apps i have, i made them for a very niche market that i too am also into so i knew where to advertise them. over the 6-7 years i've had them, they made me enough for a down payment on my house. and all of it is just extra income that is coming in on the side. it's money coming in with no more work really going into it, with the exception of a few hours here and there to update them. however, now they are hardly pulling anything in because when i started, i was the only one doing it for years, then i'd have one competitor or two. now there are like 5 free apps out there that do the same thing so i've pretty much given up on that niche app market i was in.

the new one i'm working on with my startup, we have an actual business model and financial model written on how we plan to monetize and make it a real business and make money off of it. we have an advertising strategy in place once we go beta so we have a real plan in place. we also think it has the ability to go viral and/or be HUGE because it has the opportunity to completely change a HUGE market in the app space. it's really exciting being this close. once we launch in beta, and if it gains a lot of interest and gains traction, we are going to try and seek seed funding and turn it into a real business. so we have some exciting times coming up in the real near future.

So in your opinion, what makes someone a good developer? Intelligence, work ethic, or experience?

I mean ideally it would be a combination of the three.. but if it's high intelligence I'm out because I'm only average or above - if it's experience I'm out because I have no formal experience - if it's work ethic and willingness to learn the intricacies then I could probably make it.

 

[purbeast0]

So in your opinion, what makes someone a good developer? Intelligence, work ethic, or experience?

I mean ideally it would be a combination of the three.. but if it's high intelligence I'm out because I'm only average or above - if it's experience I'm out because I have no formal experience - if it's work ethic and willingness to learn the intricacies then I could probably make it.

yeah i mean ideally it would be all of the above + more. a good developer has to be able to think about the big picture while designing small parts of the puzzle at the same time. they also need to know how to iterate over stuff. they need to be able to take constructive criticism and be able to improve from it and not make the same mistake twice. a good developer will spend an extra hour doing something up front to make code cleaner/better because it will save them 5 hours down the road when the issue would have been bigger, and would have to be rewritten later on.

they also have to be able to SPEAK to people. you don't understand how big communication is with good developers. i personally have trouble sometimes just trying to explain things to people, but when i draw stuff out it helps out a lot. i know where my weakness is with it so i'll draw it out when i feel i need to.

also, a good developer shouldn't have to solve problems in one specific language. they should be able to tell you in english or pseudo code how they can solve the problem, then go in and implement it in whatever language they need to do. a good developer doesn't need a specific tool to get a job done. they have to figure out the best tool that is necessary to get the job done. they shouldn't say "well i only know c++ so we're going to make a web app in c++". they would understand that they should probably use tools better suited for web app development and learn those.

a good developer will also constantly be refactoring their own code to make it more efficient and modular. imo the more modular code is, the better it is for people to come on board and understand. it also is much more testable. i never realized how important making code testable (and writing tests) was until i was about 8 or 9 years into my career (almost 12 years now).

also, a good developer will be able to write code without comments because they will make it readable. that doesn't mean there SHOULDN'T be comments anywhere though, but they don't need comments to tell you what the code is doing, more so rather WHY the code is doing what it is doing, in english. of course this isn't a black/white rule, but it's clear reading different people's code who is a "better" coder than others.

a good developer also has to know how to adapt, or realize that there may be code they spent 2 weeks on that gets completely scrapped. don't get feelings with code. hell on my startup app, there were 2 services that i had to rip out due to us calculating the long term costs. i spent about 3 weeks ripping out code that took me about 5 weeks to implement. sure it was time lost, but in the end it's going to save us a ton of money if we get big. i'm talking like 10's of thousands of dollars a month in service costs.

with work ethic too, it's not about just grinding out hours. a good developer will realize that there comes a time in the day that your brain will be fried and continuing to work will be more harmful than good. also just because you spend 16 hours doing something doesn't mean you did "more" work than someone doing 8 hours of work. that's just not how it works.

sorry if this seems like a buncha random thoughts and all over the place, but it basically is lol, and as i mentioned, i'm not the best communicator

 

[SP33Demon]

Nope. All overseas.

Pretty much this unless you have a graduate degree in a niche field or got into the field 10-20 years ago.

 

[Naeeldar]

No degree? And when you say "consulting", to me that means you've most likely been bartending or doing seasonal construction jobs while getting the odd EE job a few times a year.

You might want to consider just going back to school.

Lol so because he has no degree he can't make money? That seems to be the implied theory from your tone...

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Nope. All overseas.

You might be joking here - but that was always my impression of the field in general... That is, while there may be some jobs - the majority was shifting to overseas. I opted for CIS/MIS (Computer/Management Information Systems). If there's one thing IT people have issues with it's translating to business speak. I can definitely say my major choice has paid off. Though I can't say if it was overall better vs. CS - and I only say that because I didn't attempt to go that route.

 

[sdifox]

You might be joking here - but that was always my impression of the field in general... That is, while there may be some jobs - the majority was shifting to overseas. I opted for CIS/MIS (Computer/Management Information Systems). If there's one thing IT people have issues with it's translating to business speak. I can definitely say my major choice has paid off. Though I can't say if it was overall better vs. CS - and I only say that because I didn't attempt to go that route.

I am not joking. Most jobs are handed over to outsourcing company from India. They ship job there or bring people here. Net result is job dissapear for the locals.

 

[core2slow]

That's too bad, I love my "traditional IT" job. $130k and I don't have to micromanage anybody.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Lol so because he has no degree he can't make money? That seems to be the implied theory from your tone...

I didn't mean that at all. Just clarifying whether or not he finished a degree.

In my experience, there are consultants or free-lancers, those with some years of solid industry experience, who are in demand and who make a very steady living. And there are those who never find work in their field except for a few odd jobs. It's those guys who typically begin wondering about another career.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Nope. All overseas.

This. Most tech jobs, especially the funner/more advanced ones are usually outsourced, OR are in the really big cities that are super expensive and miserable to live in. You may still find some companies that hire plain old regular IT people, but that is just typical IT work, running around fixing printers, servers, PBXes, helping someone connect projector to laptop, etc...Maybe play with network stuff as well. Most of those jobs pay near minimum wage now. All depends on the company. Workstation support while being fairly basic/menial is probably the most secure of IT jobs. It's kinda hard to outsource that, at least until the company decides to deploy thin clients.

If I was to do it over again instead of doing computer science I probably would have done trades, probably electrical and/or plumbing. Though working in a climate controlled environment is a plus of computer science related jobs. Fixing a light or other electrical outside when it's 40 below zero does not sound like my idea of fun.

One thing you MAY be able to find of interest is stuff involving PLCs and building automation, but even then I think most of that stuff is outsourced. It's typically something that's set and forget, so when it's initially setup you have a guy come in, set it all up, program it, then he might come back to tweak it, and then he's gone. If there is an issue they call that guy and fly him in.