[ComputerBase.de] Forza 7 Benchmark: Vega has more gasoline in the blood than Pascal

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Head1985

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2014
1,866
699
136
TPU shows it faster by 20% at 1080p, but the gap widens as resolution goes up. The 1080 is probably bottlenecked at the backend at higher resolutions.

Edit: dumb autocorrect
Its just cpu bottlenect at 1080P
 

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
AFAIK, Forza 6 Apex runs faster on NVidia hardware as well.

True when moving up to higher performance brackets. Not so true when moving to lower performance brackets and increasing the resolution ...

Data from Sweclockers shows that Vega 10 is even with GP102 at 1440p and cut down Vega 10 manages to stay even with GP104 at 4K so the divide between AMD and Nvidia in Forza 6 is closer than you think ...

But how does that console overhead translate to PCs? It doesn't. I tried the FH3 demo after the parallel rendering patch, and the framerates could easily hit triple digits at 1440p maxed settings if I remember. So basically, the overhead associated with lower frametimes on consoles doesn't mean squat on PC, provided your machine is reasonably modern.

I didn't say it did. There isn't a whole lot of rigorous data regarding FH3 but how did your framerates 'easily' hit triple digits at 1440p when a Titan X (pascal) dropped frames at 1080p on ultra settings w/ 4x MSAA according to DF's testing ? (there was even a 8x MSAA option)

Overhead doesn't matter with FH3, the game is built with lower performance in mind since it has a frametime target of 33.3ms on X1. To even reach a stable 60FPS on ultra settings at 1080p w/ 4x MSAA in FH3 based off of DF's testing one would at the very least need a GTX 1070, maybe even a 1080 since GP102 can't even prevent dips below 60FPS on these same settings ...

Meanwhile GP102 is probably comfortably above 90FPS 1080p ultra settings w/ 8x MSAA(!) in Forza 7 according to ComputerBase ...

Wish Forza 7 had EQAA on PC since it seems to be a good tradeoff in quality/perf on AMD hardware. 4x EQAA is a little bit more expensive than 4x MSAA but has quality comparable to 8x MSAA and we could have 8x EQAA if we wanted to go further than 8x MSAA ...

Supposedly NVidia supports fully bindless now remember? I don't know if it's been tested yet, but NVidia updated their resource binding tier from tier 2 to tier 3 a few months ago with a driver up date.

I guess they do but I'd be interested to see what their GPU fetch performance with structuredbuffer is compared to a constant buffer. I'd also like to know the GPU fetch performance when the total amount of constant buffers goes over the 64KB limit and more importantly I'd want to know if it also causes a flush. To my knowledge Nvidia has never raised the constant buffer limits in OpenGL or Vulkan over 64KB even after the update ...
 

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
Actually a whole lot different, as NVIDIA cards don't suffer as badly @1080p, they stay ahead of AMD GPUs.

FuryX having better minimums doesn't really prove anything, since it's slower than 980Ti, and the same thing couldn't be replicated on any Vega card, could be just an anomaly in the test.

The behavior of Forza 6 is the same as Forza 7 @4K though.

*snip*

Fury X doesn't only have the best minimums but it also has the best frametimes (lowest 1% of frametimes) so it has the smoothest experience out of all the setups ... (Fiji is SMOOTHER than GP102! Nvidia's stutter does not translate to a better experience like I stated before.)

Higher framerate =/= smoother experience

Lowest frametime = smoother experience
 
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tamz_msc

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2017
3,865
3,729
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I didn't say it did. There isn't a whole lot of rigorous data regarding FH3 but how did your framerates 'easily' hit triple digits at 1440p when a Titan X (pascal) dropped frames at 1080p on ultra settings w/ 4x MSAA according to DF's testing ? (there was even a 8x MSAA option)
DF was pre-"multithreaded" patch. His claims refer to post-patch.

Anyway, the method used by most reviewers to test GPU and CPU performance in racing games is completely retarded.

GPUs should be tested on an empty track but with high geometric detail on the track itself. CPUs should be tested with lots of AI in non-ideal conditions. Then people wouldn't have to scratch their heads about something like Project Cars 2 in wet conditions with AI getting it's FPS cut in half, because the AVX used for particle effects is limiting GPU performance in this case.

Similar behavior is observed in Dirt 4/Dirt Rally Landrush/Rallycross compared to rally stages in those games.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
I didn't say it did. There isn't a whole lot of rigorous data regarding FH3 but how did your framerates 'easily' hit triple digits at 1440p when a Titan X (pascal) dropped frames at 1080p on ultra settings w/ 4x MSAA according to DF's testing ? (there was even a 8x MSAA option)

Yeah that test was before the parallel rendering patch, which nearly doubled performance in many cases. Here's a video of pre and post patch performance. As you can see, the uploader manages to be in the triple digits through most of the run post patch, and he's using a GTX 1080. Before the patch, he would get dips under 60 FPS at times.


I guess they do but I'd be interested to see what their GPU fetch performance with structuredbuffer is compared to a constant buffer. I'd also like to know the GPU fetch performance when the total amount of constant buffers goes over the 64KB limit and more importantly I'd want to know if it also causes a flush. To my knowledge Nvidia has never raised the constant buffer limits in OpenGL or Vulkan over 64KB even after the update ...

I guess we'll have to see. I'm surprised the folks over at Beyond3d haven't tested it yet to see if it's legit.
 
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ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
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Yeah that test was before the parallel rendering patch, which nearly doubled performance in many cases. Here's a video of pre and post patch performance. As you can see, the uploader manages to be in the triple digits through most of the run post patch, and he's using a GTX 1080. Before the patch, he would get dips under 60 FPS at times.

*snip*

Huh, barring the fact that the tester in the video benchmarked different areas compared to DF I'd be interested to know what the performance is in more urban settings packed with vehicles or how the more foliage dense areas perform in a woodlands like setting ...

But Turn 10 Studios does have a valid reason when turning down multi-threaded rendering in relationship to user experience ...

I guess we'll have to see. I'm surprised the folks over at Beyond3d haven't tested it yet to see if it's legit.

Yes, I'm curious myself as to how Nvidia copes with the different resource bindings in each cases ...

Another possibility with Vega's performance in Forza 7 is that they got more aggressive with async compute in the presence of X1X ... (has 10 CU/SE compared to X1's 6 CU/SE)

If for example they managed found a way to find perfect overlap such as being able to overlap 3ms of the gfx queue (which totaled 7.4ms on Vega) with the compute queue, Vega would only have to pay 7.4ms to render the frame. If the gfx queue totaled 6.1ms while the compute queue totaled 3ms on GP102 and Turn 10 couldn't find any overlap then GP102 would need 9.1ms to render the frame ... (there is beauty to be had in async compute reaching lower frametimes even if AMD is more limited in fixed function output than Nvidia is such 4 tri/clock vs 6 tri/clock)
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
Huh, barring the fact that the tester in the video benchmarked different areas compared to DF I'd be interested to know what the performance is in more urban settings packed with vehicles or how the more foliage dense areas perform in a woodlands like setting ...

The same YouTuber did another test of Surfers's Paradise, the most performance intensive area in the game apparently. But he didn't do a actual comparison video like in the one I linked to earlier. In this one, he just has commentary where he claims he used to drop below 60 FPS in the area and now he gets much higher and steadier frame rates. Plus he used a higher resolution:


But Turn 10 Studios does have a valid reason when turning down multi-threaded rendering in relationship to user experience ...

I guess we'll have to see what they end up doing. NVidia still comprises the bulk of the GPUs that consumers will use to play this game, so that has to count for something. I think they will have to issue a multithreaded rendering patch.
 
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Muhammed

Senior member
Jul 8, 2009
453
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Fury X doesn't only have the best minimums but it also has the best frametimes (lowest 1% of frametimes) so it has the smoothest experience out of all the setups ... (Fiji is SMOOTHER than GP102!
Which is an anomaly because it couldn't be replicated with a Vega 56 or even 64, it's probably a bug in the test. By your standards FuryX is smoother than Vega as well. More evidence that this was an anomaly. FuryX can't hold a candle to GP102.

The 1060 is also faster than the RX 580, so pretty much all NVIDIA cards were faster in Forza 6, which doesn't make it the same situation as Forza 7.
 

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
3,990
744
126
You are talking about a game that causes stutter because of genius devs,the stutter is more or less random so you can't draw conclusions.
Find a game that runs smooth on the CPU side and draw your conclusions on that.
 

Hail The Brain Slug

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2005
3,241
1,674
136
Nvidia driver 387.92, released today, claims to give a 15-25% performance improvement depending on the GPU.

It was pretty obvious this was coming. I'm interested to see how the benchmarks play out with this included.
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
4,093
1,475
136
Nvidia driver 387.92, released today, claims to give a 15-25% performance improvement depending on the GPU.

It was pretty obvious this was coming. I'm interested to see how the benchmarks play out with this included.

This is exactly what I said would happen. The Nvidia supporters were up in arms saying the game was poorly coded. Wonder what they would say now.
 

Hail The Brain Slug

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2005
3,241
1,674
136
This is exactly what I said would happen. The Nvidia supporters were up in arms saying the game was poorly coded. Wonder what they would say now.

To be fair, some driver optimizations are done to account for poor coding. We have no idea what Nvidia did to get this performance gain.

I emailed the article's author and asked him to re-test with the new driver and include the results with the original numbers.
 
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Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,274
202
106
To be fair, some driver optimizations are done to account for poor coding. We have no idea what Nvidia did to get this performance gain.

I emailed the article's author and asked him to re-test with the new driver and include the results with the original numbers.

Not impossible but I find it unlikely that Microsoft would write such bad code.
 

dogen1

Senior member
Oct 14, 2014
739
40
91
Not impossible but I find it unlikely that Microsoft would write such bad code.

Just because it was well optimized for one brand, and not as much for the other doesn't make it bad code. Maybe nvidia has the manpower and know how (about their own hardware) that it just made more sense to let them handle it.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
This is exactly what I said would happen. The Nvidia supporters were up in arms saying the game was poorly coded. Wonder what they would say now.

Go look at the Steam Forza forums. Lots of people are having performance issues with the game, AMD users included.
 
Last edited:

SirDinadan

Member
Jul 11, 2016
108
64
71
boostclock.com
Nvidia driver 387.92, released today, claims to give a 15-25% performance improvement depending on the GPU.

It was pretty obvious this was coming. I'm interested to see how the benchmarks play out with this included.
This is the second "game ready" driver for Forza 7. In my tests (with the "old", 1st game ready driver) the RX 580 was 50% faster than the GTX 1060. The RX 550 was 2x faster than the GT 1030.

Go look at the Steam forums. Lots of people are having performance issues with the game, AMD users included.
I thought it's a Microsoft Store exclusive game - or can Steam forums discuss non-Steam games now?
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
I thought it's a Microsoft Store exclusive game - or can Steam forums discuss non-Steam games now?

Hmmm....I thought I saw complaints on Steam. Maybe it was Microsoft community then.

Edit: It's in the Forza Motersports forum.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
DF was pre-"multithreaded" patch. His claims refer to post-patch.

Anyway, the method used by most reviewers to test GPU and CPU performance in racing games is completely retarded.

GPUs should be tested on an empty track but with high geometric detail on the track itself. CPUs should be tested with lots of AI in non-ideal conditions. Then people wouldn't have to scratch their heads about something like Project Cars 2 in wet conditions with AI getting it's FPS cut in half, because the AVX used for particle effects is limiting GPU performance in this case.

Similar behavior is observed in Dirt 4/Dirt Rally Landrush/Rallycross compared to rally stages in those games.
Yeaa. The same principle could be said for fps like bf series.
 

Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,274
202
106
So now GTX 1080 = Vega 64 , while the GTX 1060 stomps all over the FuryX and RX 580. GTX 1080 Ti isn't tested with the new driver just yet though.

Holy cow!

May have something to do with the game's crappy CPU optimization. It hammers two cores, and barely uses the others. FH3 had the same problem until it was fixed in a patch nearly a year later, so it's surprising that FM7 kept the same CPU usage model that lead to stuttering and poor performance in FH3.

You were saying?
 
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