ComputerBase & GameGPURise of the Tomb Raider: DX11 vs DX12 + VXAO Tested

[Bacon1]

Gameworks pushes PC gaming forward, it's not Nvidia's fault that AMD can't do tessellation well at all, despite claiming multiple generations of tessellators since DX10 GPU era, Xbox 360's tessellator, DX8's TruForm abomination etc.

http://i.imgur.com/ltuij49.jpg

Gameworks is a marketing gimmick, it cripples hardware but hurts old / competitors more. There is a reason they are sending developers to implement it and making the developers have to pay money to optimize it themselves.

All the fanboys in here applauding a reduction in quality games is sickening.

The whole point of the PC platform was to be open and have strong competition and to push hardware to its limits by making better looking games that ran better. Its sad to see how many want a us vs them and reduced competition and high profit margins. Thats not gaming, thats marketing and business.

 

[Bacon1]

That's just your uneducated and irrelevant opinion.

Gameworks pushes PC gaming forward, GCN game console makes game devs lazy and stuck in GCN2 era with no Conservative Rasterization, no Rasterizer Ordered Views, no Tiled Resources Tier 3.

Nvidia & Intel both support 12_1 fully.

Can you even describe what those are or what they are used for or are you just throwing out keywords?

 

[sontin]

Your sense of direction is really screwed up in that case. There is no doubt that Gameworks is pure crap. Not a single Gameworks title has been universally accepted by even the reviewers as moving PC gaming forward. Even People with Kepler and Maxwell cards agree that. I dare you to start a poll on this forum or ocn or any other popular site on whether Gameworks is pushing PC gaming forward or backward.

The Witcher 3 is game of the year. :thumbsup:
The Division is Ubisoft's best selling game. :thumbsup:
Rise of the Tomb Raider has sold more copies on the PC than on the Xbox One. :thumbsup:

Okay, we have Gaming Evolved titles like Hitman (flop) or beta games like Ashes (Ashes what?!)

 

[USER8000]

You don't ship unless you have buyers. Being down to 18% is really bad no matter how you want to spin

What spin?? Units shipped is not total marketshare of installed units. I have not had an AMD card for years - these are companies not religious institutions and you really need to get out more instead of all this us vs them mentality. Do you really think Jen-Hsun Huang or Lisa Su really cares - they are earning loads of money while you are getting confused over what companies like JPR are reporting.

 

[nvgpu]

Just looking at the sales figures of those poorly coded AMD biased SABOTAGE EVOLVED games on Steam, both are pretty much irrelevant and are massive flops.

 

[2is]

GTX970 beating a Fury X in DX12

Oh wait, it doesn't count as DX12 then :|

It should be obvious to even the trolliest of the trolls, that when you consider DX11 970 is handily beating DX12 970, that this DX12 implementation is horrendously broken... And this is coming form an NVidia owner.

 

[Mahigan]

That's just your uneducated and irrelevant opinion.

Gameworks pushes PC gaming forward, GCN game console makes game devs extremely lazy and stuck in GCN2(1.1) era with no Conservative Rasterization, no Rasterizer Ordered Views, no Tiled Resources Tier 3.

Nvidia & Intel both support FL12_1 fully.

So now you throw around insults. That's not nice my friend.

As for Conservative Rasterization and Raster Ordered Views, they're very nice features and I look forward to Polaris implementing them. That being said, ROV incurs a performance penalty and CR helps alleviate some of the performance penalties associated with voxel operations.

 

[iiiankiii]

Gameworks pushes PC gaming forward, it's not Nvidia's fault that AMD can't do tessellation well at all, despite claiming multiple generations of tessellators since DX10 GPU era, Xbox 360's tessellator, DX8's TruForm abomination etc.

http://i.imgur.com/ltuij49.jpg

Nice, bro. I'm glad you like GameWorks. Those slideshows must be amazing. GameWorks: pushing PC gaming forward, 10fps-15fps at a time.

 

[USER8000]

Nvidia & Intel both support FL12_1 fully.

Intel has a higher tier of DX12 support than Nvidia.

Looks like AMD and Nvidia are crap for DX12 and we should ditch them,and we should all welcome our Iris Pro toting gaming overlords! The one chip to rule them all!:thumbsup:

 

[IllogicalGlory]

That's just your uneducated and irrelevant opinion.

Gameworks pushes PC gaming forward, GCN game console makes game devs extremely lazy and stuck in GCN2(1.1) era with no Conservative Rasterization, no Rasterizer Ordered Views, no Tiled Resources Tier 3.

Nvidia & Intel both support FL12_1 fully.

VXAO doesn't even work in DX12. Gameworks and DX 12.1 are about as far apart as anything could be right now. There's literally no correlation or relationship between them at all. Gameworks is DX11 tech.

 

[Game_dev]

That's just your uneducated and irrelevant opinion.

Gameworks pushes PC gaming forward, GCN game console makes game devs extremely lazy and stuck in GCN2(1.1) era with no Conservative Rasterization, no Rasterizer Ordered Views, no Tiled Resources Tier 3.

Nvidia & Intel both support FL12_1 fully.

Maybe Intel will make a video card again and we will finally see some real competition

 

[Bacon1]

Maybe Intel will make a video card again and we will finally see some real competition

Yeah would be nice if Intel did, maybe then AMD would have some competition in DX12 since Nvidia has only managed to get negative scaling and has failed to produce an async compute driver in over 6 months.

 

[casiofx]

It hasn't been close to 50% in years. Recently AMD was down to 18%.

You have some serious comprehension problem.

Kepler and below suffers from gameworks. That drops the 80% to below 50% since only less than half of all gpus benefits from gameworks.

 

[Silverforce11]

It should be obvious to even the trolliest of the trolls, that when you consider DX11 970 is handily beating DX12 970, it should be clear that DX12 implementation is horrendously broken here... And this is coming form an NVidia owner.

Should be obvious yes... but doesn't matter if it performs worse in DX12, as long as AMD performs worse, that's all that matters.

They are used to that because GimpWorks has been doing that for the past few years.

Rather than improving performance with next-gen API, degrading performance is celebrated. Sad.

 

[Game_dev]

Yeah would be nice if Intel did, maybe then AMD would have some competition in DX12 since Nvidia has only managed to get negative scaling and has failed to produce an async compute driver in over 6 months.

You might be in the wrong thread as NVIDIA demolished AMD. We were also discussing AMD's lack of full support.

 

[Bacon1]

You might be in the wrong thread as NVIDIA demolished AMD. We were also discussing AMD's lack of full support.

Demolishing AMD? Because AMD lost more % due to terrible implementation? Ok, guess Nvidia users are only happy when they lose less performance than their competition sounds like gameworks all over again .

And lack of full support... you mean like Async Compute? A core part of DX12 that Nvidia lacks support for.

 

[Mahigan]

You might be in the wrong thread as NVIDIA demolished AMD. We were also discussing AMD's lack of full support.

Full support for what?

FL stands for Feature Level, these are additional features added to please NVIDIA due to the fact that NVIDIAs current architectures won't get a boost from using DX12.

This thread is about a patch which drops performance across the board. This is a preliminary patch that shouldn't have been released but likely was as a means of raining on the Hitman DX12 parade.

I say give Square Enix time to iron out their poorly performing DX12 implementation.

/end thread

 

[raghu78]

The Witcher 3 is game of the year. :thumbsup:
The Division is Ubisoft's best selling game. :thumbsup:
Rise of the Tomb Raider has sold more copies on the PC than on the Xbox One. :thumbsup:

Okay, we have Gaming Evolved titles like Hitman (flop) or beta games like Ashes (Ashes what?!)

Sorry but we are talking about Gameworks features being reviewed. Witcher 3 was criticized for over tesselation in Hairworks. Heck the developer even had to go back and introduce customizable tesselation settings in a later patch.

http://www.techspot.com/review/1006-the-witcher-3-benchmarks/page6.html

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2015...nt_gameplay_performance_review/3#.VuTFedD6HEk

The funny part was AMD gave a fix much earlier which benefited Radeon owners. Poor Nvidia card owners had to wait months till the patch arrived and they got the same choice of both performance and image quality

http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/Optimizing-The-Witcher-3.aspx

 

[flynnsk]

That's just your uneducated and irrelevant opinion.

Gameworks pushes PC gaming forward, GCN game console makes game devs extremely lazy and stuck in GCN2(1.1) era with no Conservative Rasterization, no Rasterizer Ordered Views, no Tiled Resources Tier 3.

Nvidia & Intel both support FL12_1 fully.

ONLY Intel Skylake has full (Tier) Feature Level 12_1 support., in fact nV's support of CR is minimal, so much so it BARELY meets the minimum requirement and falls far short of either Tier 2 or Tier 3.

While much is being made of DX12 Feature Level 1, it's ironic, given NV doesn't fully support ALL DX12 functions (as noted previously Skylake is the most complete D3D12 part currently)

with regard to conservative rasterization, even NV goes so far to point out that CR can be done w/o hw support..

https://developer.nvidia.com/content/dont-be-conservative-conservative-rasterization

Is it possible to achieve Conservative Raster without HW support?

Yes, it is indeed possible to do this, and there is a very good article describing it here.

Essentially it involves using the Geometry Shader

Edit: Would add that Tier 3 of Tiled Resources is merely Tier 2 with the addition of 3D Textures to Volume Resources (carried over from DX11.3), where as Resource Binding Tier 3 (supported on GCN) adds several increases in capabilities including

Max # of simultaneous tables containing SRVs, Tier 3 = Unlimited (vs 5 for Tier 2)
number of CBVs in (descriptor) tables, Tier 3 = full heap (vs 14 in Tier 2)
number of UAVs in (descriptor) tables, Tier 3 = full heap (vs 64 in Tier 2)
Max # of descriptors in heap for SRV, CBV & UAVs, Tier 3 1M+.

See https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn899110(v=vs.85).aspx

In summary, Tiled Resources Tier 3 adds only the ability for an extra axis (Z) where as Resource Binding Tier 3 adds a much greater capability in the ability for the GPU to access descriptors and the number of descriptors they can access.

TLDR: Tiled Resources (Tier 3 compared to Tier 2) < Resource Binding (Tier 3 compared to Tier 2)

 

[thesmokingman]

Welp, this proves that anything with Nvidia and Gameworks can get HOSED, not even DX12 is impervious.

 

[Maverick177]

I reckon Assassin's Creed Black Flag didn't get any major performance issues being a Gameworks title.

 

[nvgpu]

However both approaches add performance overhead, and as such usage of conservative rasterization in real time graphics has been pretty limited so far.

Way to fail by selectively quoting, no one will use geometry shader because it's extremely slow, AMD's geometry shader is crap also. Even AMD's employee said they don't support Conservative Rasterization, that's the end of it.

Also posting extremely incorrect Brazillian site chart that has been debunked thoroughtly at Beyond3d forums, really?

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/direct3d-feature-levels-discussion.56575/page-11#post-1847892

This picture originates from a Brazilian forum and copies a table posted on a Hungarian forum with no attributed source of information (could as well be this thread on Anandtech forum).

It's wrong on several important counts, for example: none of GCN chips support rasterizer ordered views, conservative rasterization, or tiled resources tier 3 (ie. "volume tiled resources" with Texture3D support), as shown by the D3D12 feature checking tool.

 

[Maverick177]

I'm pretty sure both AMD and nVIDIA had said there are ways to do Conservative Rasterization and ROV without relying on the hardware. I remember an AMD employee specifically said those methods were used in Dirt Rally.

 

[nvgpu]

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/direct3d-feature-levels-discussion.56575/page-11#post-1847921

Yeah it was ridiculously bad when I briefly tested it... like turn it on even with a trivial pixel shader and no actual synchronization going on and your frame takes 300ms+. Hopefully that was just a bug or some sort of test implementation, but suffice it to say I'll believe they can support it efficiently when I see it

Intel employee tests AMD's ROV "implementation", so bad it's not even usable.

 

[Mahigan]

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/direct3d-feature-levels-discussion.56575/page-11#post-1847921blah blah blah I am not well versed in the topic at hand

Oh not this again...
http://www.bitsandchips.it/52-english-news/5661-clarifications-about-tier-and-feature-levels-of-the-directx-12

Resource Binding:
•Tier 1: INTEL Haswell e Broadwell, NVIDIA Fermi
•Tier 2: NVIDIA Kepler, Maxwell 1.0 and Maxwell 2.0
•Tier 3: AMD GCN 1.0, GCN 1.1 and GCN 1.2

Feature Level:
•Feature level 11.0: NVIDIA Fermi, Kepler, Maxwell 1.0
•Feature level 11.1: AMD GCN 1.0, INTEL Haswell and Broadwell
•Feature level 12.0: AMD GCN 1.1 and GCN 1.2
•Feature level 12.1: NVIDIA Maxwell 2.0

Despite being pleonastic, it is worth to restate that feature level 12.1 does not coincide with an imaginary “full/complete DirectX 12 support” since it does not cover many important or secondary features exposed by Direct3D 12.

/end of discussion.

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