Concealed carry weapon discussion

[randalee]

Here is a situation I pose to you. A bank is busy in the morning, and has a fair queue of people waiting for a cashier. A man at the front of the line approaches the counter, and pulls a pistol and points it at the cashier. The cashier realizes it's a fake plastic gun, and does not fear for her life, but decides to comply with the robber's request for money.

A person in line watches the situation unfold, and is lawfully carrying a concealed weapon. They see the robber with the cashier, and fear that her life could be in jeopardy. They do not see or realize it's a fake plastic gun, even though the cashier KNOWS it's a fake plastic gun, and the robber likely means no harm, other than to fill his pocket with some cash.

The person with the concealed weapon draws and fires 5 shots, striking the robber with two of them. It's enough that the robber ends up dying. Is the shooter justified in their actions? Why or why not?

 

[PaperclipGod]

No. In my state (MA) at least, you need to give the guy a chance to put his gun down. i.e. "DROP YOUR WEAPON". If he doesn't, and he makes any threatening movements, then you shoot. Although you'd be stupid to start a firefight in the middle of a crowded bank, anyway.

And for the record, im pro gun.

 

[randay]

no, because hes not a cop, and it wasnt in self defense.

 

[waggy]

i guess it would depend on the laws.

but personally i feel he was justified. he thought the cashiers life was in danger.

 

[randalee]

Originally posted by: randay
no, because hes not a cop, and it wasnt in self defense.

Was not the shooter defending the life of another? What might the shooter's mens rea be? And the cashier's mens rea?

 

[XNice]

he'll still go to jail i think, but he will get a public backing for trying to save a person life and might end up with a reduced sentence.

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: randalee

Originally posted by: randay
no, because hes not a cop, and it wasnt in self defense.

Was not the shooter defending the life of another? What might the shooter's mens rea be? And the cashier's mens rea?

[keanu reeves] Whoa. Latin. [/Keanu Reeves]

 

[Atheus]

If it had been a _real_ weapon, and the CCW guy fired, the robber might have fired too - instinctively - when he heard the first shot or took a hit in the arm. The CCW guy might have actually caused both the cashier and the robber to lose their lives, when the alternative is that some millionaire loses $50.

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: randalee
Here is a situation I pose to you. A bank is busy in the morning, and has a fair queue of people waiting for a cashier. A man at the front of the line approaches the counter, and pulls a pistol and points it at the cashier. The cashier realizes it's a fake plastic gun, and does not fear for her life, but decides to comply with the robber's request for money.

A person in line watches the situation unfold, and is lawfully carrying a concealed weapon. They see the robber with the cashier, and fear that her life could be in jeopardy. They do not see or realize it's a fake plastic gun, even though the cashier KNOWS it's a fake plastic gun, and the robber likely means no harm, other than to fill his pocket with some cash.

The person with the concealed weapon draws and fires 5 shots, striking the robber with two of them. It's enough that the robber ends up dying. Is the shooter justified in their actions? Why or why not?

without a warning, nope.

a reasonable person would have watched tons of cop movies and has doubt that the teller'
s life is in danger. he's only there to rob the place. you're not defending the teller's life since it's reasonable that her life isnt in danger.

now if he points the gun at you, then you can fire w/o a warning.

 

[hdeck]

5 shots?! wtf

 

[dartworth]

It really doesn't matter what we think...what does the law say?

 

[Turin39789]

What if a second CCW carrier did not see what was going on at the cash register, and just sees the first CCW carrier pull his gun. Is he justified in pulling his own gun and firing 5 shots at the first carrier?

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Turin39789
What if a second CCW carrier did not see what was going on at the cash register, and just sees the first CCW carrier pull his gun. Is he justified in pulling his own gun and firing 5 shots at the first carrier?

depends on what his mens rea is!

 

[PaperclipGod]

Originally posted by: Turin39789
What if a second CCW carrier did not see what was going on at the cash register, and just sees the first CCW carrier pull his gun. Is he justified in pulling his own gun and firing 5 shots at the first carrier?

And then what if a third CCW carrier did not see what was going on at the end of the line, and just sees the second CCW carrier pull his gun! It might go on forever untill everyone is dead! omgz!

 

[DaveSimmons]

This is heading down the slippery slope into vigilante territory.

What if the citizen is walking down the street and sees someone standing with a knife a block away, can he run closer to shoot the knife-holder even though he personally was in no danger?

What about a fistfight? Is it OK to take a guess at which one is the victim and shoot the other one?

 

[RaiderJ]

I would say the shooter is justified (morally, maybe not legally). If I was the teller, I'd not mind the robber being shot, fake gun or not.

In my mind, someone holding up the teller is essentially holding up everyone else and deserves to be shot.

 

[randalee]

Originally posted by: JEDI
now if he points the gun at you, then you can fire w/o a warning.

Ahhhh crud. This was a bad idea, as we live in so many states, and all may have different rules. Let's do this -- what would be wrong or right in YOUR state? Consequences in YOUR state? Please mention what state you live in.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Turin39789
What if a second CCW carrier did not see what was going on at the cash register, and just sees the first CCW carrier pull his gun. Is he justified in pulling his own gun and firing 5 shots at the first carrier?

depends on what his mens rea is!

So what if everyone in the bank is a CCW carrier? Then everyone shoots each other in a domino effect. So then what?

 

[DaveSimmons]

Originally posted by: RaiderJ
In my mind, someone holding up the teller is essentially holding up everyone else and deserves to be shot.

True, but there's the argument that these people should be shot by professionals, not amateurs.

As noted above the amateur starting a firefight could endanger more people than if he lets the robber go, or at least waits until the robber shows he isn't just going to take the money and run (which 99% do).

 

[randay]

depends on what thier mens rea is!

 

[randalee]

UTAH

In my state, the shooter would be completely justified. Likely not even arrested. The weapon would be confiscated for evidence, and the shooter would likely never see it again. The mens rea of the shooter, knowing they were a concealed carry holder, would likely be that they KNOWINGLY caused the death of the robber. They decided to use deadly force to stop the robber, believing the life of the cashier was in danger. They knew their actions COULD cause the death of the robber.

It's likely, however, that the shooter would be the subject of a civil case. Either by a bystander (reckless endangerment) or the robber's family/next of kin (wrongful death).

Morally? Completely justified as well.

 

[Darwin333]

The law differs from state to state. In a lot of states its illegal to carry a gun inside of some establishments such as banks.

In the state of Louisiana you do not need to give a warning. In the situation you described they may be able to charge you with a minor gun law violation or public endangerment but nothing else (like murder). However, he would be a damn idiot for opening fire during a bank robbery unless the robber had already started shooting. Since the majority of bank robberies do not end up with casualties he would be endangering the people as much as the robber.

 

[randalee]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
This is heading down the slippery slope into vigilante territory.

What if the citizen is walking down the street and sees someone standing with a knife a block away, can he run closer to shoot the knife-holder even though he personally was in no danger?

What about a fistfight? Is it OK to take a guess at which one is the victim and shoot the other one?

Good points. Some states allow you to defend the life of others. Not that you should go looking for people to "save"... That is a hard question. A person will do what they will do -- and I suppose the courts will decide what is right and what is wrong, according to the law.

 

[Kntx]

Originally posted by: randalee
Here is a situation I pose to you. A bank is busy in the morning, and has a fair queue of people waiting for a cashier. A man at the front of the line approaches the counter, and pulls a pistol and points it at the cashier. The cashier realizes it's a fake plastic gun, and does not fear for her life, but decides to comply with the robber's request for money.

A person in line watches the situation unfold, and is lawfully carrying a concealed weapon. They see the robber with the cashier, and fear that her life could be in jeopardy. They do not see or realize it's a fake plastic gun, even though the cashier KNOWS it's a fake plastic gun, and the robber likely means no harm, other than to fill his pocket with some cash.

The person with the concealed weapon draws and fires 5 shots, striking the robber with two of them. It's enough that the robber ends up dying. Is the shooter justified in their actions? Why or why not?

No. Shooting a gun in crowed room is not justified.

edit: After seeing original thread... It goes doubly for you.

 

[randalee]

Originally posted by: Kntx
No. Shooting a gun in crowed room is not justified.

What state do you live in, and what statute says that? I'm just curious, for real. I travel a lot, and would like to know where this place is.