Concealed carry weapon discussion

[Poulsonator]

Originally posted by: randalee
Here is a situation I pose to you. A bank is busy in the morning, and has a fair queue of people waiting for a cashier. A man at the front of the line approaches the counter, and pulls a pistol and points it at the cashier. The cashier realizes it's a fake plastic gun, and does not fear for her life, but decides to comply with the robber's request for money.

A person in line watches the situation unfold, and is lawfully carrying a concealed weapon. They see the robber with the cashier, and fear that her life could be in jeopardy. They do not see or realize it's a fake plastic gun, even though the cashier KNOWS it's a fake plastic gun, and the robber likely means no harm, other than to fill his pocket with some cash.

The person with the concealed weapon draws and fires 5 shots, striking the robber with two of them. It's enough that the robber ends up dying. Is the shooter justified in their actions? Why or why not?

This is why banks insure money. The robbers can take all they want, it doesn't matter.

First of all, the only people that should be allowed to carry guns are trained, licensed professionals that require a gun for their jobs. Second, why would you want to put yourself into this situation? Especially if the robber hasn't hurt anyone?

This is what I don't understand about CCW people. They all assume that every day they're going to be put in harm's way and they'll be in a shoot-out, Wild Wild West style. I just don't get it.

 

[mk52]

people should stop focusing on the odd chance that everything will turn out right with the robber shot and no one else harmed.

The much more juicy scenario is when Mr. CCW shoots and kills an innocent bystander

 

[amddude]

CCW laws have been in affect in several states for a long time. AFAIK, no bystanders have been shot, nor have any wild west scenarios played out. This discussion is the same as when the assault weapons ban expired and everyone said the streets would be filled with shell casings and blood. Didn't happen. That's not to say shootings haven't happened since, but not any more than before. Just hysteria. And for the record, most people I know with ccw carry because they just want to protect their family from a car jacking type situation.

CCW != peace officer

It's just for defense. Stop painting everyone with a ccw as a vigilante cause that is a big pile of you know what.

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: amddude
CCW laws have been in affect in several states for a long time. AFAIK, no bystanders have been shot, nor have any wild west scenarios played out. This discussion is the same as when the assault weapons ban expired and everyone said the streets would be filled with shell casings and blood. Didn't happen. That's not to say shootings haven't happened since, but not any more than before. Just hysteria. And for the record, most people I know with ccw carry because they just want to protect their family from a car jacking type situation.

CCW != peace officer

It's just for defense. Stop painting everyone with a ccw as a vigilante cause that is a big pile of you know what.

In the scenario in question the ccw is pulling in a situation that does not call for it and is putting people's lives at risk. I'll assume you are directing your remarks about vigilantism at the OP.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Poulsonator

Originally posted by: randalee
Here is a situation I pose to you. A bank is busy in the morning, and has a fair queue of people waiting for a cashier. A man at the front of the line approaches the counter, and pulls a pistol and points it at the cashier. The cashier realizes it's a fake plastic gun, and does not fear for her life, but decides to comply with the robber's request for money.

A person in line watches the situation unfold, and is lawfully carrying a concealed weapon. They see the robber with the cashier, and fear that her life could be in jeopardy. They do not see or realize it's a fake plastic gun, even though the cashier KNOWS it's a fake plastic gun, and the robber likely means no harm, other than to fill his pocket with some cash.

The person with the concealed weapon draws and fires 5 shots, striking the robber with two of them. It's enough that the robber ends up dying. Is the shooter justified in their actions? Why or why not?

This is why banks insure money. The robbers can take all they want, it doesn't matter.

First of all, the only people that should be allowed to carry guns are trained, licensed professionals that require a gun for their jobs. Second, why would you want to put yourself into this situation? Especially if the robber hasn't hurt anyone?

This is what I don't understand about CCW people. They all assume that every day they're going to be put in harm's way and they'll be in a shoot-out, Wild Wild West style. I just don't get it.

overgeneralize much?

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: amddude
CCW laws have been in affect in several states for a long time. AFAIK, no bystanders have been shot, nor have any wild west scenarios played out. This discussion is the same as when the assault weapons ban expired and everyone said the streets would be filled with shell casings and blood. Didn't happen. That's not to say shootings haven't happened since, but not any more than before. Just hysteria. And for the record, most people I know with ccw carry because they just want to protect their family from a car jacking type situation.

CCW != peace officer

It's just for defense. Stop painting everyone with a ccw as a vigilante cause that is a big pile of you know what.

My opinion is people carry because it makes them feel more secure, nothing wrong with that as a reason.

But, there are also people who feel more secure not being around people who carry.

That is why I believe laws like Utah's ccw law goes too far. Apparently property owners in Utah have no right to simply decide they don't want people carrying weapons on their premises.

They can throw hippies out of their mall, they can throw people out for not wearing a tie, but they have no say on who is carrying a lethal concealed weapon ? Crazy.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: amddude
CCW laws have been in affect in several states for a long time. AFAIK, no bystanders have been shot, nor have any wild west scenarios played out. This discussion is the same as when the assault weapons ban expired and everyone said the streets would be filled with shell casings and blood. Didn't happen. That's not to say shootings haven't happened since, but not any more than before. Just hysteria. And for the record, most people I know with ccw carry because they just want to protect their family from a car jacking type situation.

CCW != peace officer

It's just for defense. Stop painting everyone with a ccw as a vigilante cause that is a big pile of you know what.

My opinion is people carry because it makes them feel more secure, nothing wrong with that as a reason.

But, there are also people who feel more secure not being around people who carry.

That is why I believe laws like Utah's ccw law goes too far. Apparently property owners in Utah have no right to simply decide they don't want people carrying weapons on their premises.

They can throw hippies out of their mall, they can throw people out for not wearing a tie, but they have no say on who is carrying a lethal concealed weapon ? Crazy.

Not to self: dont go to Utah. :shocked:

 

[trinketsummoner]

If you want to help stop crime join the police force.

 

[amddude]

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: amddude
CCW laws have been in affect in several states for a long time. AFAIK, no bystanders have been shot, nor have any wild west scenarios played out. This discussion is the same as when the assault weapons ban expired and everyone said the streets would be filled with shell casings and blood. Didn't happen. That's not to say shootings haven't happened since, but not any more than before. Just hysteria. And for the record, most people I know with ccw carry because they just want to protect their family from a car jacking type situation.

CCW != peace officer

It's just for defense. Stop painting everyone with a ccw as a vigilante cause that is a big pile of you know what.

My opinion is people carry because it makes them feel more secure, nothing wrong with that as a reason.

But, there are also people who feel more secure not being around people who carry.

That is why I believe laws like Utah's ccw law goes too far. Apparently property owners in Utah have no right to simply decide they don't want people carrying weapons on their premises.

They can throw hippies out of their mall, they can throw people out for not wearing a tie, but they have no say on who is carrying a lethal concealed weapon ? Crazy.

I can understand someone feeling uneasy about a weapon being carried around them. Having said that, there is nothing to stop you from illegally packing while you do whatever. Unless you post armed guards with metal detectors everywhere, you won't stop it.

Second, I can also appreciate the property rights issue. I think it's worth noting, IMO, you are going above and beyond your property rights (specifically talking commercial places) to say that someone has to disarm because you don't like it. That to me is putting that person in danger if something were to happen.

I still think that the debate about CCW as a whole is a lot of paranoia and not much real world information. Please, show me where people packing have started a wild west street battle, shot a bystander, etc. There are many many hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people with permits all over the US, yet you hear next to nothing about it. Debate is about facts. Please show me some evidence to the contrary--more than one or two incidents that anyone can find on google.

At least in Utah they don't put your safety at risk when they ask you to disarm. Here in FL you can't pack on say, a school or college campus, where we have seen shootings occur in the past.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Tom

Originally posted by: amddude
CCW laws have been in affect in several states for a long time. AFAIK, no bystanders have been shot, nor have any wild west scenarios played out. This discussion is the same as when the assault weapons ban expired and everyone said the streets would be filled with shell casings and blood. Didn't happen. That's not to say shootings haven't happened since, but not any more than before. Just hysteria. And for the record, most people I know with ccw carry because they just want to protect their family from a car jacking type situation.

CCW != peace officer

It's just for defense. Stop painting everyone with a ccw as a vigilante cause that is a big pile of you know what.

My opinion is people carry because it makes them feel more secure, nothing wrong with that as a reason.

But, there are also people who feel more secure not being around people who carry.

That is why I believe laws like Utah's ccw law goes too far. Apparently property owners in Utah have no right to simply decide they don't want people carrying weapons on their premises.

They can throw hippies out of their mall, they can throw people out for not wearing a tie, but they have no say on who is carrying a lethal concealed weapon ? Crazy.

Not to self: dont go to Utah. :shocked:

Don't like feeling safe? Utah has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. (5th from the lowest)

Wanna know the only state in the nation where CCW is allowed without permit by any law abiding citizen? Vermont. Now guess which state has the lowest violent crime rate in the nation? Vermont.

In fact, ALL of the lowest five states in violent crime have very liberal CCW laws. The top 5 all are extremely restrictive.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: amddude
CCW laws have been in affect in several states for a long time. AFAIK, no bystanders have been shot, nor have any wild west scenarios played out. This discussion is the same as when the assault weapons ban expired and everyone said the streets would be filled with shell casings and blood. Didn't happen. That's not to say shootings haven't happened since, but not any more than before. Just hysteria. And for the record, most people I know with ccw carry because they just want to protect their family from a car jacking type situation.

CCW != peace officer

It's just for defense. Stop painting everyone with a ccw as a vigilante cause that is a big pile of you know what.

In the scenario in question the ccw is pulling in a situation that does not call for it and is putting people's lives at risk. I'll assume you are directing your remarks about vigilantism at the OP.

Shooting an armed robber who is threatening the life of another is NOT vigilantism. It is defense of others which falls under self defense.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Amused
Just stop. You played your hand and got called on it... and you had nothing.

People sue police departments all the time for wrongful death. You're delusional if you think it can't happen to you.

Again, please produce one single successful prosecution or lawsuit against a legal CCW permit holder who shoots a criminal while they are pointing a gun at them, or another innocent person.

Why are you still arguing?

 

[meltdown75]

Guns are gay.

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Amused
Don't like feeling safe? Utah has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. (5th from the lowest)

Wanna know the only state in the nation where CCW is allowed without permit by any law abiding citizen? Vermont. Now guess which state has the lowest violent crime rate in the nation? Vermont.

In fact, ALL of the lowest five states in violent crime have very liberal CCW laws. The top 5 all are extremely restrictive.

What does this mean to you?

Text

Am I really safer when violent crime is reduced but death by firearms is increased? Would I rather be threatened with death, or shot to death? I don't know.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Amused
Don't like feeling safe? Utah has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. (5th from the lowest)

Wanna know the only state in the nation where CCW is allowed without permit by any law abiding citizen? Vermont. Now guess which state has the lowest violent crime rate in the nation? Vermont.

In fact, ALL of the lowest five states in violent crime have very liberal CCW laws. The top 5 all are extremely restrictive.

What does this mean to you?

Text

Am I really safer when violent crime is reduced but death by firearms is increased? Would I rather be threatened with death, or shot to death? I don't know.

If you are less likely to be a victim of a VIOLENT crime, you are less likely to be shot.

And note those are death rates, not murder rates... so they include suicide. Why not dig up the murder by firearm rate so you can at least be relevant?

 

[randay]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: randay

Originally posted by: Amused
Don't like feeling safe? Utah has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation. (5th from the lowest)

Wanna know the only state in the nation where CCW is allowed without permit by any law abiding citizen? Vermont. Now guess which state has the lowest violent crime rate in the nation? Vermont.

In fact, ALL of the lowest five states in violent crime have very liberal CCW laws. The top 5 all are extremely restrictive.

What does this mean to you?

Text

Am I really safer when violent crime is reduced but death by firearms is increased? Would I rather be threatened with death, or shot to death? I don't know.

If you are less likely to be a victim of a VIOLENT crime, you are less likely to be shot.

And note those are death rates, not murder rates... so they include suicide. Why not dig up the murder by firearm rate so you can at least be relevant?

I dont see how its any less relevant than your figures. Violent crime is not the only type of crime, it also doesnt always end in death. Violent crime also includes crimes commited with or without weapons. And I don't see how suicide by firearm is not relevant, a gun is a gun, and the point here is that the more guns there are, the more gun related deaths there will be, period.

Also would you mind providing some linkage for your numbers? I live in Hawaii and firearms are very restricted here, and I am pretty sure Hawaii is not in the top 5.

 

[Tom]

I lived in Utah before and after the liberalized CCW law; as a practical matter it made absolutely no difference in crime.

Utah has low crime rates because it is more homogeneous than most places in the USA, has a strong tradition of family structure, a very well organized dominant church that is very involved in all aspects of society, restricts alcohol to a great degree, has only two cities, one of which is barely big enough to be called a city, and mostly is rural and small communities, which have low rates of crime almost everywhere.

And Vermont also has no large cities, I no less about it but I suspect it also has less diversity in population, which means one less thing to fight about, is fairly rural, has a lower rate of poverty than most states.

So saying CCW has much if anything to do with crime in those states is a stretch.

 

[fubar569]

Those of you who think the government and the police department are the only ones who can protect you and your family...just wait till you are in a situation and a CCW holder saves your ass. maybe then and only then will you understand why the law provides for people to carry a weapon for the purpose of self defense and the defense of others.

as have been stated before CCW holders are upheld to a much higher standard than anyone else, even the criminals with ILLEGAL weapons. if we so much as breathe in the wrong direction we lose the permit and right to carry. So those who still have them obviously know a thing or two about responsibility. My father has been a liscensed PA CCW holder since the law went into effect. He owns 2 pistols...a .357 6 shot revolver and a taurus PT92 9mm - the latter his primary carry while i was a young child.

He always preached responsibility, training, and respect of firearms of all kinds, especially of handguns. However, to him we were more valuable than money, car, etc etc...OR the life of the person trying to harm us. thank god the only time he had to use it was to put down a deer that was hit by a car and flung into our front yard. thats the only time i heard the pistol fire till a month or 2 ago when i went to the range and fired it myself. He even had all of us go inside and plug our ears because as children we were more than a little pissed when he "killed bambi" - now in retrospect i understand why he did it, and i would do the same exact thing.

I am now 23 years old, and after careful study and much reading on laws and such...i have decided the benefits to myself far outweigh any potential downfall. I went and bought a Springfield XD Sub-Compact 9mm for daily CCW - the pistol is at home in a lock box while i await the actual permit next week after the holidays...after i aquire the permit in my state, AND attend a valid CCW course i fully intend to carry this daily anywhere it is not expressly prohibited. I feel FULLY confident in my abilities to carry, handle, responsibly store and (god forbid) use the weapon. I hope i never have to draw the weapon, but at least i will have the ability to respond to defend myself and my gf/family instead of saying "wait please dont shoot us, i'm gonna call the cops and let them handle you" - and maybe someday you never know...i could be the person that saves your life...because i had my CCW and didnt have to pickup a phone instead...

 

[91TTZ]

 

[pontifex]

:roll:

Originally posted by: meltdown75
Guns are gay.

well, fvck. that decides it for me then. tomorrow i am gonna go sell all my guns and related equipment and preach on forums about how guns are gay and hope i can turn a few people to the right side.



oh, in case you overgenaralizing, irrational, uneducated moroons...er i mean anti-gun folks....couldn't guess - i was being sarcastic.

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: pontifex
:roll:

Originally posted by: meltdown75
Guns are gay.

well, fvck. that decides it for me then. tomorrow i am gonna go sell all my guns and related equipment and preach on forums about how guns are gay and hope i can turn a few people to the right side.



oh, in case you overgenaralizing, irrational, uneducated moroons...er i mean anti-gun folks....couldn't guess - i was being sarcastic.

And you have how many posts in every single gun thread? You lobby for guns all day and my little quip sends your panties into a fervent twist? Self-control issues evident here - not only in this post but pretty much everything you post here. Gee, I'm so happy you're packing. I bet your neighbours sleep well at night.

People have different points of view, DEAL WITH IT.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: pontifex
:roll:

Originally posted by: meltdown75
Guns are gay.

well, fvck. that decides it for me then. tomorrow i am gonna go sell all my guns and related equipment and preach on forums about how guns are gay and hope i can turn a few people to the right side.



oh, in case you overgenaralizing, irrational, uneducated moroons...er i mean anti-gun folks....couldn't guess - i was being sarcastic.

And you have how many posts in every single gun thread? You lobby for guns all day and my little quip sends your panties into a fervent twist? Self-control issues evident here - not only in this post but pretty much everything you post here. Gee, I'm so happy you're packing. I bet your neighbours sleep well at night.

People have different points of view, DEAL WITH IT.

You're a limpwristed socialist.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: pontifex
:roll:

Originally posted by: meltdown75
Guns are gay.

well, fvck. that decides it for me then. tomorrow i am gonna go sell all my guns and related equipment and preach on forums about how guns are gay and hope i can turn a few people to the right side.



oh, in case you overgenaralizing, irrational, uneducated moroons...er i mean anti-gun folks....couldn't guess - i was being sarcastic.

And you have how many posts in every single gun thread? You lobby for guns all day and my little quip sends your panties into a fervent twist? Self-control issues evident here - not only in this post but pretty much everything you post here. Gee, I'm so happy you're packing. I bet your neighbours sleep well at night.

People have different points of view, DEAL WITH IT.

You're a limpwristed socialist.

Oh sthop it. :lips:

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

You're a limpwristed socialist.

Oh sthop it. :lips:

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: pontifex
:roll:

Originally posted by: meltdown75
Guns are gay.

well, fvck. that decides it for me then. tomorrow i am gonna go sell all my guns and related equipment and preach on forums about how guns are gay and hope i can turn a few people to the right side.



oh, in case you overgenaralizing, irrational, uneducated moroons...er i mean anti-gun folks....couldn't guess - i was being sarcastic.

And you have how many posts in every single gun thread? You lobby for guns all day and my little quip sends your panties into a fervent twist? Self-control issues evident here - not only in this post but pretty much everything you post here. Gee, I'm so happy you're packing. I bet your neighbours sleep well at night.

People have different points of view, DEAL WITH IT.

"guns are gay" is such a convincing view. in athread of serious discussion you come in and say that and expect us to take you seriously? why even bother posting if you're just going to troll?