Confirmed by AMD & Intel - Rivals Intel and AMD Team Up on PC Chips to Battle NVidia

[NTMBK]

What was stopping AMD from doing this with a completely in-house design?

EMIB? Nah. Its a very expensive solution, so the incremental build cost would more than be compensated for by the pricing profile.

But is it more expensive than a full silicon interposer? Because that's what they would need to use HBM2, if they didn't have EMIB.

 

[DooKey]

Looks like the enemy of my enemy is my friend thing going on up in here.

 

[Glo.]

It's going to be a laptop?

https://pikeralpha.wordpress.com/2017/10/20/coffee-lake-cpuids/

CPUIDs are already in MacOS.

The above snippet is for a product with a Coffee Lake processor with CPUID 0x0906E9 (EDIT: This looks more like a CPUID of a Kaby Lake processor) and the snippet below is for a product with a Coffee Lake processor with CPUID 0x0906EB.

Also, its worth noting that Pike also found traces of 8 core Coffee Lake CPU in the OS from Apple.

Last year he also have said that next generation Mac Mini will be "bigger". At least - the higher-end one.

I do like skepticism, but sometimes skepticism is pointless.

 

[krumme]

Sorry, I don't see how this is bad. AMD is able to gain some market share in the mobile space presumably with less R&D while taking advantage of the better brand recognition Intel carries.
Yes, we as enthusiasts have a more informed picture of how things compete and perform; the average Joe doesn't.

I see this as a net positive, but I'm open to sensible theories as to why it may not be.

Intel have emib and supperior packaging technology. Amd dont. This is just using it for better products. The cpu doesnt matter. Who cares in mobile form factor if its a 4 ryzen or 4c Intel. Same shit. But half height and winning interconnects speed matters in the market above the traditionel apu/iris pro level. This is tge sort of solution needed to take mid and high end notebook gaming into a single package. Fantastic.

 

[formulav8]

But is it more expensive than a full silicon interposer?

Isn't Samsung or someone working on an Organic Interposer which is supposed to be much cheaper?

 

[plopke]

I am baffled but anything that has not have enough space or wants to be made smaller with a 1050/1060 performance would be a contender for this i guess. But my questions are :

Not competing with Mobile Ryzen ?
Might these only be made for Apple , makes sense to do this just for Apple designs?
How does this compete with Nvidia?

 

[FIVR]

It's definitely bad for AMD. It basically tells every OEM to never bother with Raven Ridge because you can always get something similar or better from intel. Maybe this is why they has so few OEM wins with raven ridge - OEMs already knew they could blow it off and wait for an intel chip with AMD gpu in same package.


I wrote $12 Nov 10 calls on all my shares. Hope I get exercised ASAP. I want off Dr. Su's wild ride.

 

[swilli89]

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/emib.html

^ Intel's own interposer tech outlined at a high level. Seems to basically just be the same interposer tech we have seen since Fiji but its obviously new territory with both CPU + GPU on an interposer.

This is probably going to be pretty much Apple exclusive. Even if it is "available" to the rest of the market I doubt we see many OEM's integrating this into a design.. just like Iris Pro. In my opinion this is basically a replacement to Iris Pro, niche performance at a niche cost. Raven Ridge with its traditional memory interface and much lower cost will not be threatened by this as they are completely different markets, despite both being APUs.

 

[Charlie22911]

It's definitely bad for AMD. It basically tells every OEM to never bother with Raven Ridge because you can always get something similar or better from intel. Maybe this is why they has so few OEM wins with raven ridge - OEMs already knew they could blow it off and wait for an intel chip with AMD gpu in same package.


I wrote $12 Nov 10 calls on all my shares. Hope I get exercised ASAP. I want off Dr. Su's wild ride.

By that token, I assume it is also bad for Intel since they are basically saying that their integrated graphics are so bad they had to use a rivals product? So then should we also be selling our shares of Intel? I'm sorry, I just don't see a compelling argument.

 

[PeterScott]

https://pikeralpha.wordpress.com/2017/10/20/coffee-lake-cpuids/

CPUIDs are already in MacOS.
Also, its worth noting that Pike also found traces of 8 core Coffee Lake CPU in the OS from Apple.

Last year he also have said that next generation Mac Mini will be "bigger". At least - the higher-end one.

I do like skepticism, but sometimes skepticism is pointless.

All that link speculates on is that there will be a Mac Mini with Coffee Lake.

Leaping from there to using a high end niche laptop part in a desktop isn't following any kind of logical path.

The whole point of this part is paying much more to make a thinner laptop, that has better battery life.

It makes ZERO sense to waste the money on those features in a Desktop.

 

[PingSpike]

They presumably would have done this themselves, but no R&D money. So it makes a reasonable amount of sense.

The gaming notebook market is about 99% NV right now of course, so combining to try and put any sort of dent in the monopoly has its attractions.

This is the only interpretation that I have on this thats remotely positive. But with Zen out now it seems like its time to eat your own dogfood. 2-3 years ago this may have been a smart short-medium play, but today it just seems strange.

 

[dullard]

But is it more expensive than a full silicon interposer?

EMIB is supposedly the cheap way to do things. Instead of a very precise AND large piece of silicon (which is difficult to line up everything perfectly when the connections are both small and spread apart), they just use a few very small and simple bridges.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/emib.html

cost-effective approach...simple to implement in a design...Yields in Normal Package Range

 

[tynopik]

It's definitely bad for AMD. It basically tells every OEM to never bother with Raven Ridge because you can always get something similar or better from intel. Maybe this is why they has so few OEM wins with raven ridge - OEMs already knew they could blow it off and wait for an intel chip with AMD gpu in same package.

at 3x the cost . . .

this is going to be a massively expensive product, most OEMs aren't going to be interested outside a few niche products

it has zero impact on raven ridge's target markets

 

[FIVR]

Intel even dissed AMD in their presentation, saying that EMIB is thinner and far superior to an interposer. That's technically true in regards to thickness, but the difference in thickness between EMIB and interposer is trivial and interposer allows for much more bandwidth. It would have no effect in laptop form factor so it's basically just a big diss to AMD.


AMD gets dissed by its competitors, sells their competitors products, then expects OEMs to somehow get on board with their own products. I thought this company was under better management... but it clearly is not. It's the same company it was in 2006.

 

[tynopik]

the real competition Intel is afraid of might be ARM, not Nvidia

there's always been rumors that Apple could go to a full custom ARM product stack. This could be Intel's desperate attempt to stave that off by addressing their main weakness, one that Apple has always been unhappy about

 

[krumme]

It'll probably be too expensive and Nvidia will not have much to worry about.

Ok so all the engineers and economists at Intel and amd is stupid and didnt think of cost. Surely Intel and amd working together on a product like this is more like an advantage to nvidia.

/s

 

[ZGR]

Wow. I can't believe the silly rumor wasn't as silly as we thought. Nice job AMD and Intel. Looks like the next generation of Ultrabooks will get stupid fast.

This also looks like Intel is giving up hope on in house Iris Pro and eDRAM perhaps?

 

[PeterScott]

I don't think this is a good move. At all.

What was stopping AMD from doing this with a completely in-house design?

EMIB? Nah. Its a very expensive solution, so the incremental build cost would more than be compensated for by the pricing profile.

It would have given AMD a solution far above anything Intel could provide - meaning they are the headline act - grabbing mindshare and with that, additional marketshare elsewhere.


Unfortunately they are walking into a boxing ring thinking like an also-ran rather than a hungry lean challenger looking to cut the lethargic complacent champ to shreds.


Does anyone really think a high-powered APU has no market in CAD workstations? Or even HPC?

I agree this is likely better for Intel than AMD, which is why we get an Intel Press release touting it.

Also while NVidia may not have a part today that can work well in the EMIB package, there is nothing stopping Intel from going to NVidia for Generation 2 of a similar product, or playing AMD and NVidia off against each other to be next in Intels packaging offer.

 

[swilli89]

It's definitely bad for AMD. It basically tells every OEM to never bother with Raven Ridge because you can always get something similar or better from intel. Maybe this is why they has so few OEM wins with raven ridge - OEMs already knew they could blow it off and wait for an intel chip with AMD gpu in same package.


I wrote $12 Nov 10 calls on all my shares. Hope I get exercised ASAP. I want off Dr. Su's wild ride.

Same hyperbolic nonsense that is constantly spewed around AMD. As I said above, RR and this hybrid chip are in completely different markets. Does a 1080Ti cannabalize 1060 sales? Every other OEM wouldn't even design around an AMD only APU with HBM2 because simply the market for >$1000 thin and light gaming laptops isn't exactly huge. This will require a proprietary chipset to run and the platform costs will be simply massive compared to an AM4 Raven Ridge. Your just utterly wrong about them being in the same package. They are completely different types of platforms!

And about your calls.. I don't know why you would write weekly calls right after a big news release like this.

 

[Glo.]

All that link speculates on is that there will be a Mac Mini with Coffee Lake.

Leaping from there to using a high end niche laptop part in a desktop isn't following any kind of logical path.

The whole point of this part is paying much more to make a thinner laptop, that has better battery life.

It makes ZERO sense to waste the money on those features in a Desktop.

You have no idea who Pike is if you think he "speculates" there .

He was the one who first leaked information that next iPhone will have wireless charging. He was the one who leaked first that Mac Pro 2013 will not be updated, and will get replacement in 2018. If he "suggests" that Mac Mini will be bigger, and is in the works, and Mac Os has linked to this computer CPUs that are having CPUid from 8th Gen CPUs, but technology traced to 7th Gen(Kaby Lake) - it basically suggests that Apple is going to build Mac Mini with those CPUs.

 

[FIVR]

By that token, I assume it is also bad for Intel since they are basically saying that their integrated graphics are so bad they had to use a rivals product? So then should we also be selling our shares of Intel? I'm sorry, I just don't see a compelling argument.

Everyone already knew intel had crap IGP. Nobody was under the impression that intel IGP was great, so this doesn't change anything about that. What it does change, is the idea that Intel wouldn't be able to compete with raven ridge IGP in notebook form factor. They can, because they can be given AMD IGP by AMD themselves and now AMD has basically no advantage over intel in notebooks.


This is great for intel, it's a new product with new technology and it has better IGP than any intel product ever has before. Who would've though that intel would be the ones producing the next great APU? Nobody, until now.

 

[formulav8]

I wrote $12 Nov 10 calls on all my shares. Hope I get exercised ASAP. I want off Dr. Su's wild ride.

Buddy I'm an AMD stock holder as well and keeping my shares. I think you are thinking this partnership is going to compete with RR in gaming. Definitely not. RR IGP will not even be close. It will also put the Radeon name into more consumers hands.

I do not see it hurting RR sales. Especially with the Intel chip most likely costing maybe a little cheaper than what a KL CPU + good Discreet graphics would end up costing. In fact, there could be even lighter/thinner lappies using this chip.

 

[krumme]

You see only end result, but there is a lot of background story from this. Its worth paying attention to what will happen in upcoming weeks.

Now, i just want to see performance of this chip, and if it will be available for consumer market. Maybe I will consider this as an option for mITX build.

This is clearly low form factor product. I dont know what your mitx build looks like bit if it can take even a small dgpu that will surely be more costeffective and flexible solution.

 

[Glo.]

Intel even dissed AMD in their presentation, saying that EMIB is thinner and far superior to an interposer. That's technically true in regards to thickness, but the difference in thickness between EMIB and interposer is trivial and interposer allows for much more bandwidth. It would have no effect in laptop form factor so it's basically just a big diss to AMD.


AMD gets dissed by its competitors, sells their competitors products, then expects OEMs to somehow get on board with their own products. I thought this company was under better management... but it clearly is not. It's the same company it was in 2006.

You have to pay for GPU die, for CPU die, for HBM die. Even if AMD would make second design of Raven Ridge bigger, with more GPU power, and with HBM2 package, and PHY - it would be much cheaper to buy, than this CPU.

 

[FIVR]

Same hyperbolic nonsense that is constantly spewed around AMD. As I said above, RR and this hybrid chip are in completely different markets. Does a 1080Ti cannabalize 1060 sales? Every other OEM wouldn't even design around an AMD only APU with HBM2 because simply the market for >$1000 thin and light gaming laptops isn't exactly huge. This will require a proprietary chipset to run and the platform costs will be simply massive compared to an AM4 Raven Ridge. Your just utterly wrong about them being in the same package. They are completely different types of platforms!

And about your calls.. I don't know why you would write weekly calls right after a big news release like this.

I wrote them because i want out of AMD NOW, but I want to sell at 12$. How do you suggest I do that today?


There are tons of other companies I can invest in that won't sell their own competitive advantage away to their biggest competitors for a slight uptick in revenue.