Confirmed by AMD & Intel - Rivals Intel and AMD Team Up on PC Chips to Battle NVidia

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krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
46 Comment into it and no mention of Apple.

I think this is Apple wanted Intel CPU and AMD's GPU on Laptop.
Yes there is a obvious customer. But emib and intel packaging Technology is developed over years.
 
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swilli89

Golden Member
Mar 23, 2010
1,558
1,181
136
I wrote them because i want out of AMD NOW, but I want to sell at 12$. How do you suggest I do that today?


There are tons of other companies I can invest in that won't sell their own competitive advantage away to their biggest competitors for a slight uptick in revenue.
I mean don't you think you are armchair quarterbacking a bit much about this? AMD has reduced debts, reduced debt interest rates, increased margins, increased revenues, increased forecasts, has incredible market potential remaining in commercial/enterprise, and is now selling their largest competitor chips because their competitor can't make GPU chips good enough... all in about 18 months if you use the beginning of 2016 as a baseline when their stock bottomed out.

What is your cost basis? Unless you are some bandwagon investor that hopped on AMD when it was already $10+ then you should display some patience and watch AMD continue to make its comeback.

Maybe you are confused. Intel competes on AMD with CPUs. They aren't selling any competitive advantage away.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,208
3,620
126
I wrote them because i want out of AMD NOW, but I want to sell at 12$.
I don't really understand you. Just last week you said:
Watch an learn - AMD will be $20 in less than 6 months while INTC will be back in the 30s if they're lucky.
And don't go around claiming that you were surprised this time, because, you know everything about technology:
You should probably do more research before you try to criticize somebody who obviously knows way more than you do about stocks and tech companies.
 

tynopik

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2004
5,245
500
126
What it does change, is the idea that Intel wouldn't be able to compete with raven ridge IGP in notebook form factor. They can, because they can be given AMD IGP by AMD themselves and now AMD has basically no advantage over intel in notebooks.

This is false for one reason: price

This product will not be competing in the same market segment as RR. In the RR segment, Intel still can't compete.

This is a super high end product where AMD wasn't targeting any products anyways.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

eek2121

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2005
3,046
4,268
136
I mean don't you think you are armchair quarterbacking a bit much about this? AMD has reduced debts, reduced debt interest rates, increased margins, increased revenues, increased forecasts, has incredible market potential remaining in commercial/enterprise, and is now selling their largest competitor chips because their competitor can't make GPU chips good enough... all in about 18 months if you use the beginning of 2016 as a baseline when their stock bottomed out.

What is your cost basis? Unless you are some bandwagon investor that hopped on AMD when it was already $10+ then you should display some patience and watch AMD continue to make its comeback.

Maybe you are confused. Intel competes on AMD with CPUs. They aren't selling any competitive advantage away.

This.
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
911
106
I don't really understand you. Just last week you said:

And don't go around claiming that you were surprised this time, because, you know everything about technology:
You don't understand that news can can change the perception of a company and thus, it's stock price?

People can be surprised, especially by boneheaded moves like this. What is so hard for you to understand about that? You must have zero experience investing if you can't adjust your own outlook and perception on a company based on news.
 
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FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
911
106
I mean don't you think you are armchair quarterbacking a bit much about this? AMD has reduced debts, reduced debt interest rates, increased margins, increased revenues, increased forecasts, has incredible market potential remaining in commercial/enterprise, and is now selling their largest competitor chips because their competitor can't make GPU chips good enough... all in about 18 months if you use the beginning of 2016 as a baseline when their stock bottomed out.

What is your cost basis? Unless you are some bandwagon investor that hopped on AMD when it was already $10+ then you should display some patience and watch AMD continue to make its comeback.

Maybe you are confused. Intel competes on AMD with CPUs. They aren't selling any competitive advantage away.

I have been trading stocks and options for nearly a decade. My cost basis on AMD is ~7$ per share. I first started buying shares in May 2016 at 4.08/share. I know I can get better returns on other companies than AMD, but I thought AMD was a good company that was in the process of a turnaround. I still think that, but my perceptions of how this turnaround will go have changed.

I have every right to make decisions about my portfolio and this news tells me to sell. If you don't agree, that's fine. You'll probably get decent returns on AMD from here, but I don't think this company will ever rival intel. Not with current management.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Wow. I can't believe the silly rumor wasn't as silly as we thought. Nice job AMD and Intel. Looks like the next generation of Ultrabooks will get stupid fast.

This also looks like Intel is giving up hope on in house Iris Pro and eDRAM perhaps?

Why shouldnt they use amd gpu tech instead now you have emib and a vega gpu that is build for hbm? Seems quite logical to me now nv have made most angry.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
I agree this is likely better for Intel than AMD, which is why we get an Intel Press release touting it.

Also while NVidia may not have a part today that can work well in the EMIB package, there is nothing stopping Intel from going to NVidia for Generation 2 of a similar product, or playing AMD and NVidia off against each other to be next in Intels packaging offer.
Yes this is an Intel product. But how far is it for amd to master this type of packaging vs intel finding it obvious to select nv?

This is btw also a testament to the capabilities of vega.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,787
4,771
136
One way to increase HBM2 volumes and lower prices.

Automatic assumptions being made that AMD will never equal or surpass Intel in CPUs. Zen2 on 7nm might disagree.

Almost every single post in the 2 threads on this topic are about a zero sum game. Way to go guys.
 

Yakk

Golden Member
May 28, 2016
1,574
275
81
AMD originally started out working with Intel, and later on becoming a semi-competitor after receiving their x86 license if I remember correctly. I see this fitting in very well with AMD's business strategy of partnering with other businesses... Sony, Microsoft, Hynix, Apple, Samsung, IBM.. Etc... It goes straight up against the walled garden approach being favoured lately by many corporations. Ideally they would do it all themselves, but building up a network centered around themselves as a hub is quite an interesting business proposition I have to say and opens up a lot of possibilities for them while keeping expenses relatively low comparitively.
 

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
1,651
473
136
Very good execution by AMD management here with so many positives. Works well for intel also. It's important to keep in mind that this won't be a high volume part at $1400, and it brings in revenue with no Ozbourne affect. This new package doesn't compete with Raven Ridge's 12-25W TDP, there is no crossover so a smart move by both companies contrary to some of the knee jerk reactions. Has no one considered that this package doesn't negate AMD from developing a similar solution for the market, in addition to the one intel is releasing? Perhaps AMD already has a similar solution under development, or already developed? Under that scenario, AMD has Radeon graphics cutting a very wide swath.
 
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USER8000

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2012
1,542
780
136
Some people are overanalysing this. AMD has little marketshare in mobile discrete GPUs. This means AMD has more chance of increasing sales of such GPUs whilst at the same time at the lower end of the market their mobile IGPs will still be better than anything Intel has. This is all about trying to get a foot into more graphics card sales in laptops which Nvidia is dominating AMD in.

It looks like a win-win scenario for AMD when Intel admits they have lost the race in graphics.
 

Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
1,409
1,655
136
Almost every single post in the 2 threads on this topic are about a zero sum game. Way to go guys.

AMD's biggest problem now is that average Joe in the street doesn't know anything about them.

Having an APU 5x* better than anything Intel can produce (in games/graphical applications) makes an argument that simply cannot be dismissed. By OEMs, by retailers, by reviewers. No one in the entire eco-system could turn down that kind of performance advantage. At least, without serious questions being asked in courts.


*pulled this 5x from my ar$€. Could be 3x, could be 10x. Whatever. You get the idea.
 

CatMerc

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2016
1,114
1,153
136
I don't know what to think about the ramifications of this. I think the only way this makes sense is if AMD took this semi-custom deal far enough back in the past where it needed money from anyone it could get it from. It was money to stay afloat just like all of the other semi-custom deals. It just so happens to be with a competitor in other segments. A deal with the devil so to speak. Or it could simply be that AMD semi-custom has the permission to whatever it likes to bring in money for AMD.

There is some good to come out of this. It means a) Intel completely admitted it's nowhere close to having graphics technology that can rival AMD or Nvidia. This bodes well for Raven Ridge and beyond b) It's not Nvidia getting revenue from this deal. c) This will help add "legitimacy" to the Radeon brand. It will change some consumer's minds who would otherwise only consider Nvidia. d) It is a new mobile segment so being part of that is better than not. By definition it can't affect current segments. There is also nothing stopping AMD from developing a similar product. The benefit is they can let Intel risk their own money to see if the segment is worth pursuing.
More likely AMD just isn't intending to compete on the same segment as this product in the 2018 and maybe 2019 timeframe. So it's a win win for now.

By Zen 2 things might change, as there is the possibility that AMD becomes more bold in their designs with the increased funding coming in from Zen.

What prevents NVIDIA from asking the same treatment from Intel in the future?
Intel approached AMD for this, not the other way around.
NVIDIA is a fierce competitor they want to contain, AMD for now is behind on GPU's so they can use them for the time being.

It's definitely bad for AMD. It basically tells every OEM to never bother with Raven Ridge because you can always get something similar or better from intel. Maybe this is why they has so few OEM wins with raven ridge - OEMs already knew they could blow it off and wait for an intel chip with AMD gpu in same package.


I wrote $12 Nov 10 calls on all my shares. Hope I get exercised ASAP. I want off Dr. Su's wild ride.
This is a completely different beast for a completely different market. It's a 66W-100W part, and is inherently more expensive due to the die sizes involved, the HBM2, and the EMIB interconnects.

Raven Ridge is 15W-35W (65W for desktop), and it's much cheaper. That's like saying nobody should bother with a 1060 when a 1080 Ti is a thing.
 
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Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
I'm reading this is going to be a switchable graphics kind of thing. The Intel iGPU is still there, and used for things like the media engine.
 

LightningZ71

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2017
1,659
1,944
136
Why is this so complicated for people to understand?!?!

Apple needs to continue to develop their laptop and convertible business. They need new products in competitive form factors. This product enables them to produce very thin laptops and convertibles in the same markets where MS is moving the surface, surface book and other products. This will give Apple (and potentially MS) the product that they need to enable them to tightly package high performance graphics, high performance CPUs, and large enough batteries to continue to gain overall capabilities. Currently, if you want anything above minimal graphics quality at middle of the road resolutions, you have to have a dGPU in your mobile device. That dGPU takes up a lot of board area in an already tightly packed system. This compacts all of that into a slightly enlarged CPU area and concentrates most of your hot spots into one area, making it convenient to route to the edge of the case for heat exchange. This is perfect for that area.

Why didn't Intel just add an HBM2 stack next to their existing CPU cores with integrated graphics? Intel likely has a disadvantage with respect to IP there given how much less comprehensive their IP portfolio is for graphics. In addition, it can be demonstrated that intel's integrated graphics on their processors are less efficient with respect to raw performance than their AMD counterparts when measured against die area, power draw, and other metrics. To make a chip that would be competitive with this AMD solution, they would likely have to make their die prohibitively large, reducing yields and affecting the rest of their product line (remember, Intel tends to share their actual dies through many different products, disabling various parts as needed. Using a monster die for this solution would make the rest of the stack too expensive to exist in the market). This solution lets them use a die that they already have in use in many other market segments in a product that is targeted in a segment that is outside of their volume areas.

Why does this work for AMD? It works because "money". AMD needs the revenue, especially in the RTG. This moves a custom product (read, expensive) to a market that they wouldn't be in any way. These are sales that AMD would not realize without this relationship. Because of the likely capability gap between this product and anything that AMD could COMMERCIALLY PRODUCE IN VOLUME, it won't be a direct threat to their Ryzen mobile line. That line is expected to be sold in laptops and convertibles that are in the $500-$100 market. This combined product with Intel would be in the $1000+ market (probably well into it). Ryzen mobile is for casual gaming at 1080p in low-to-medium detail. This intel product is for 1080p gaming at maximum detail, and higher resolutions with still high detail levels.

What this also offers is the possibility to produce professional level thin laptops that are aimed at the CAD/CAM/content creation crowd that are fully capable of executing most of the functions that their desktop workstations can do, save for some of the most extreme scenarios.

One thing to keep in mind, this AMD graphics core will likely be produced in Intel's fabs at a current generation process. This means that it will likely be more power efficient than the existing vega chips. I can see this thing being capable of running at up to Vega 56 levels of performance for short bursts with a robust cooling solution (like you might find in a larger, mini-desktop situation) and adequate power delivery. However, since this is targeted at mobile and small portables, it would likely be more of what you would imagine a "Vega 48" might be. The limits on this package will definitely be thermal and power delivery related. Remember, better process for the GPU than desktop vega, and likely a slightly more efficient HBM2 stack as well.

For AMD to have done this on their own, they would have had to develop the package, the custom interposer (as they don't have EMIB), and done a lot of work getting it into the market. With Intel's name behind this package, it will be easier to get it into the market. Ryzen Mobile can't really fight in this market with the current die due to limits on power, thermals, and most importantly, memory bandwidth. HBM2 for them would make their package too large for mobile. The next best thing is going custom die, which would be huge at 14nm, would have to entail a much larger GPU section, would require quad channel DRAM, and would still be unwieldy for manufacturers to implement for a second tier company. Ryzen Mobile has a LONG way to go to get into the market where this will compete.

This is a solid win for RTG. This is a solid win for AMD as a whole.

Now, the big question is, how does this affect Nvidia? This will muscle them out of the lowest end (and highest volume) section of the thin and light market. Their dGPU parts will have to be cheaper to keep volume and entice manufacturers to still produce for them there. Their only viable solution here would to be to broker the same exact deal with AMD's processor division. Can you imagine a Ryzen Zen2 or 3 processor on an interposer with an Nvidia GPU with HBM2 or 3 by then competing against intel here?
 

CatMerc

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2016
1,114
1,153
136
I'm reading this is going to be a switchable graphics kind of thing. The Intel iGPU is still there, and used for things like the media engine.
Yeah. The drivers better be good, because switchable graphics can be a pain.
 
Reactions: Phynaz

CatMerc

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2016
1,114
1,153
136
Now, the big question is, how does this affect Nvidia? This will muscle them out of the lowest end (and highest volume) section of the thin and light market. Their dGPU parts will have to be cheaper to keep volume and entice manufacturers to still produce for them there. Their only viable solution here would to be to broker the same exact deal with AMD's processor division. Can you imagine a Ryzen Zen2 or 3 processor on an interposer with an Nvidia GPU with HBM2 or 3 by then competing against intel here?
My sides would be so high they would cross the universe barrier and find themselves in an alternate reality where Intel and NVIDIA are the underdogs.

Imagine that, AMD supplying CPU's for NVIDIA, while at the same time supplying GPU's for Intel, and just having them duke it out while collecting profits from every product sold. That would be hilarious.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,208
3,620
126
You don't understand that news can can change the perception of a company and thus, it's stock price?

People can be surprised, especially by boneheaded moves like this. What is so hard for you to understand about that? You must have zero experience investing if you can't adjust your own outlook and perception on a company based on news.
I certainly can adjust outlooks. But, I don't need to.

You are missing my point. My point is that you were absolutely certain that AMD can go only up, dismissing any reason that AMD could go down. Now you seem to be absolutely certain that AMD will go down, dismissing any reason that AMD could go up. You are overly confident (which is why I included that last quote of yours) and thus you have to continuously flip/flop from one viewpoint to another.

If your outlook includes uncertainty (less confidence), then your outlook doesn't need to flip/flop. My outlook that includes good and bad about a stock gets tweaked slightly as data comes and goes. Your outlook appears like a fish out of water flopping around aimlessly.
 
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