Conflict of interest in game journalism.

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0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
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When that's all a person boils down to that's all they get. Go on about how the whole world doesn't understand you though.



The Lie Heard Around the World #GamerGate #NotYourShield
Sargon of Akkad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRaAJBKmi5I

Anti-GamerGate Threats, Anti-Notyourshield Racism & Falsifying Narratives
EventStatus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5ZoYSILbQ8


#GamerGate Research into Academia
Sargon of Akkad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDrBCX5cm5k



Again, show me how this is simply not true.

Corruption in media is practically a given at this point, the idea that outlets like fox news lie isn't a conspiracy, but when its this blatant over this many outlets, peoples concerns are valid whether you like it or not.

Your flippant dismissal shows you don't actually care to understand anything let alone argue a point, so what are you doing here other than trolling us.
 

Venix

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2002
1,084
3
81
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy

Funny how the whole situation looks when you look at it from a non-men's rights perspective.

Did you miss the bias warning at the top of the page?

Look at the page's history. It's literally just a handful of people each changing the page hundreds of times in an edit war. One of the most prolific anti-GamerGate editors, Ryulong, is an ex-administrator who was stripped of his privileges over abuse of administrative tools, harassment of other users, and bias. That should be a little concerning.

Generally, Wikipedia is a terrible source for any topic that's even remotely controversial. Those topics tend to be dominated by biased assholes, many of whom treat Wikipedia editing like a full time job.
 
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0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
jezebel "news editor"

gawker "writer"


These people just can't stop revealing what kind of people they really are.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
Internet aristocrat just did it, you can't support that sort of comment at all. GG and the media deserve to be enemies. You are horrible horrible people and some people just want to burn the world down. I really do get irritated that people can't control their little anger person inside enough to actually make a decent argued response however ridiculous and hateful the comment coming there way might be. That sort of comment isn't funny, its just insulting and rude and he should be ashamed of himself, as should anyone else that decides that is the right way to go about doing things.

The media is corrupt, but gamersgate is also a hate movement, not an activism movement. Internet aristocrat was one of the people who as leading this thing and when he says stuff like that....the journalists are just proved right. Doesn't stop them being corrupt we have seen countless articles over the years on the money and bribes (tablets etc) they take for games coverage but banding with this set of hateful people is not the right thing to do either.
 

BrightCandle

Diamond Member
Mar 15, 2007
4,762
0
76
Giant bomb put out a statement:

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/letter-from-the-editor-10-17-2014/1100-5049/

Makes a good point, what does gamergate actually accomplish and if ethics in journalism is actually your major interest then gamergate is not the arena to make fruitful progress in. Nothing specific, but more of a cease fire to reflect on what little has been accomplished and what is really important.

That isn't a ceasefire, it says all the gamergate supports are hateful. Its not calling gamers dead but its the exact same sentiment. About as far as you can go from being a ceasefire, its another shot fired.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
He's directing his ire to the extremes of both sides, not to the people that have legitimate concerns. People that do have legitimate concerns about ethics are having their message muddled in gamergate, so its not a good venue to have a real discussion. Such as trying to discuss real issues while people are outraged about death threats regarding feminism. Too many issues are wrapped up in gamergate, so many that its just noise. At least that's what I got from it. He called for people to step back a moment and reflect on what they really find important in the discussion instead of being "left vs right." Gamergate has too many concurrent arguments to be left vs right or distilled into SJW vs terrorist. Everything is so heightened.

The only person I saw him fire shots at were the people writing death threats, which we can all agree are weirdos.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
So, spacekatgal has been debating on the giantbomb forums and its been a little weird. The more she calls out specific websites, the more her argument seems weak. Here is a post from her:

spacekatgal said:
First of all, that's not accurate. I praised Giant Bomb in this threat, and on my Twitter. I also thanked people of GB privately. I will thank you to be accurate.

Secondly, this is not about needing GB to speak up for me. My issue was covered on NBC, ABC, CBS, the BBC, the NYY, the Guardian, the CBC, Bloomberg, CNN and MSNBC and others. What I have advocated is Giant Bomb addressing an industry issue that's been taking out my friends one by one.

I have long been a critic of this industry's tendency to hire mostly white straight men. I've covered this issue in industry keynotes, in major pieces throughout the games press, and on radio and television appearances. This isn't a Giant Bomb specific issue - they're merely the most blatant example of a journalistic institution with no diversity whatsoever.

The reason I speak out on that issue is because it has such dire consequences for coverage of issues affecting women. In this case, it's cost me a tremendous amount. It cost Samantha Allen her career. Right now, it's affecting this thread, and your propensity to make it about your personal feelings.

To paraphrase a friend of mine that used to work with many of the members of GB, "Great guys. But they put their head in the sand on this stuff."

I responded with:

subyman said:
I see what you are saying, but at the same time I don't think every media outlet needs to gear their crew to be everything to everybody. GB has its niche, its happy there and they are successful. They don't aspire to be the place for every interest and I think they have the right to focus on certain demographics without being called out. We see this in a lot of media, such as race specific magazines and TV channels.

Other gaming websites provide a more diverse group, such as Gamespot which is closely related to GB.

She didn't directly respond to my post, but did to a similiar post with this:

spacekatgal said:
I don't agree with this, and let me tell you why. My first industry experience with mass death and rape threats came from Giant Bomb users when I wrote a piece critiquing the low numbers of women that vote for GOTY.

Using the formula (How many views did my piece get)/(How many people threatened to rape or murder me) Giant Bomb has the worst record of any subject I've covered. By far.

That is to say, the lack of diversity here has serious consequences. It has consequences for the culture. It has consequences for the people attracted to Giant Bomb coverage, and it has consequences throughout the whole industry. The users of this site are extremely quick to defend Giant Bomb in a way that feels very disproportionate to the issues at hand.

I simply don't see the issue with demographic-specific websites. I don't see them having a detrimental consequence on society (hint, society has different demographics with different interests!)

I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, but her arguments simply don't stack up especially when nearly all journalists have been on her side regardless of their color or gender.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
Any opinions about this Jeff Gerstmann guy?

Well, he was in the middle of a rather large journalistic integrity debacle several years ago. He ran with an honest (and negative) review of Kane and Lynch. Eidos had ads all over Gamespot (where Jeff was editor-in-chief) and curiously Jeff was fired within a few days of the negative review. It blew up in Gamespot's face as most of the staff left including Brad, Alex, Ryan, and Vinny. They all eventually got together and created a new website called Giantbomb where they had great success and, ironically, were eventually purchased by CBS who owns Gamespot.

So to say Jeff or his website are dishonest is really strange, since the thing that started their website was them being super honest about games. They even run the site mainly on a subscription model as to not have to be completely bound by ad money.

They practically created the video driven gaming coverage we have now by producing weekly live streams and doing quick looks (they coined the term.)
 

Merad

Platinum Member
May 31, 2010
2,586
19
81
How do people have the time and energy to care about any of this bullshit?
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,108
1,260
126
So, spacekatgal has been debating on the giantbomb forums and its been a little weird. The more she calls out specific websites, the more her argument seems weak. Here is a post from her:



I responded with:



She didn't directly respond to my post, but did to a similiar post with this:



I simply don't see the issue with demographic-specific websites. I don't see them having a detrimental consequence on society (hint, society has different demographics with different interests!)

I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, but her arguments simply don't stack up especially when nearly all journalists have been on her side regardless of their color or gender.

I think the core issue that this individual you've offered posts from, Anita Sarkeesian and their ilk who feel as they do is that they don't understand the reality of demographics in gaming.

Console and PC gaming's demographic is overwhelmingly teen to mid 20s males. They are the core audience and any successful entity whether a developer, reviewer or 'journalist' (lol) will be focused on that core demographic if they want to maintain success. You can see the results of ignoring or attacking that core when you see outlets such as Polygon turning on the core demographic they are supposedly 'reporting' to.

I'm not sure what planet these SJWs are living on where they expect any industry to sacrifice profitability and success in order to appease a vocal minority's view on right and wrong. The reality is that if there were a profitable market out there in making games within the tiny narrow minded wheelhouse of someone like Anita Sarkeesian then that market would be getting filled. They see a conspiracy in the reality that within the gaming market they are a minority within a minority; ultra loony females amongst sane female gamers that are not being pandered to.

I just shake my head at all this hoopla because a year from now it will be forgotten in all but their minds, and the console and PC game industry will be no different in the content it is producing today. If they are in denial about this they should take a look at the sales numbers of the games the devout of their movement have created and compare that to the games making real money producing the 'evil' content they denigrate.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
Giant bomb put out a statement:

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/letter-from-the-editor-10-17-2014/1100-5049/

Makes a good point, what does gamergate actually accomplish and if ethics in journalism is actually your major interest then gamergate is not the arena to make fruitful progress in. Nothing specific, but more of a cease fire to reflect on what little has been accomplished and what is really important.

Careful, what these people lack in integrity and reason, they make up for it with their machiavellian psychopathy. Time and time again they've tried to make the issue go away, first "gamers are dead", then "stop gamergate" hashtag.

Which of course was a major dud


These attempts to minimize or simply dismiss the concerns out of hand are just desperate attempts by these people not to win through merit of argument, but by controlling the narrative.

Don't underestimate the underhandedness of these people, they are socially adept manipulators, its why they have infiltrated so many areas we are concerned with.

Most of what that statement comes to is just black propaganda. It just reinforces yet again the false notions that gamergate harasses women while pretending to take a step back from it all. Its just spinning the false narrative all over again.

It draws false equilvance when the fact is the anti gamergate side has had the power of the establishment behind it to bully people. Flooding a dozen "gamer is dead" articles in a day to poison the narrative and smear people preemptively, silencing people en masse with banning and deletion campaigns, this isn't the work of gamergate, the people who hold the power and the biggest soap boxes are all on their side, they've lied and abused people for two months now and can only point to a few anonymous threats of dubious merit. While on their side they've been doxing, ddosing, banning, dmca'ing, suspending twitter accounts and just smearing gamers on every platform they can manage to reach. Its quite literally been a one sided beating gamers have been taking from these people. There is no equivalence at all.

And his true colors really show when he says things like " To watch talented folks like Jenn Frank get pushed right up to a breaking point " Yea a woman who used her access to media to put out an op ed defending zoe quinn which was written to give off an impression that it was from an objective perspective when in fact she was directly connected to that person.

As lisby explains she should have known better. No excuses, her claims of footnotes or the guardians mistakes justify her deceptive intent.
Greg Lisby Interview journalistic ethics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-7RLxrsJ04

Anyways she's not a victim, she like the rest of the professional victim brigade made out quite handsomely thanks to patreon, a couple thousand a month from that alone.

When they use outlets like MSNBC even just within the last week to spout blatant lies
The Lie Heard Around the World #GamerGate #NotYourShield
Sargon of Akkad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRaAJBKmi5I

When the real voices of people behind gamergate are just not heard.
A Conversation with #GamerGate and #NotYourShield
Sargon of Akkad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzW9EkyP1c4


Oliver Campbell stream #gamergate Threedog's news radio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8SG7QuxqD4

There simply is no equivalence.

"But GamerGate is a speed bump for the video game industry"


That's just more of that black propaganda. They tried with the stop gamergate to kill momentum, it failed miserably, now this.


The ugliness in the industry is just incredible
http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2014/10/gamergate-destructoid-corruption-and-ruined-careers/




Again, one side, gamers numbering in the hundreds of millions. The other side, a small clique of connected hipster sjw "professionals" with access to power and influence and still behave like spoiled children.




Internet aristocrat just did it, you can't support that sort of comment at all. GG and the media deserve to be enemies. You are horrible horrible people and some people just want to burn the world down. I really do get irritated that people can't control their little anger person inside enough to actually make a decent argued response however ridiculous and hateful the comment coming there way might be. That sort of comment isn't funny, its just insulting and rude and he should be ashamed of himself, as should anyone else that decides that is the right way to go about doing things.

The media is corrupt, but gamersgate is also a hate movement, not an activism movement. Internet aristocrat was one of the people who as leading this thing and when he says stuff like that....the journalists are just proved right. Doesn't stop them being corrupt we have seen countless articles over the years on the money and bribes (tablets etc) they take for games coverage but banding with this set of hateful people is not the right thing to do either.

Internet aristocrat did what? He took a hypocritical statement and made fun of it. If you've listened to any of his streams or videos he's a sarcastic man. Jezebel's news editor made that statement when they would be appalled if something similar were fired at them, that feminists are angry and ugly fat women for instance. Since feminism is the core of their site, it only makes their lack of self awareness all the more galling. So its perfectly legitimate to poke fun at such a revealing slip up by such people.

Again your statement that gamergate is a hate movement is simply unsupportable and is at the crux of the problem where people are constantly confusing disagreeing with a woman for misogyny. Disagree with Anita Sarkeesian? Oh you hate women.... Its at the core of the mentality on their side and we're just tired of it.
 
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0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
<snip>
The media is corrupt, but gamersgate is also a hate movement<snip>

Again, on the issue of gamergate being a "hate group"

Its notable that its white guys on anti gamergate calling out gamergate people to prove they are minorities or

women


https://twitter.com/LilysLore/status/522905688658685953/photo/1






#NotYourShield - We Are Gamers
Shield Project
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYqBdCmDR0M

Jayd3fox
https://www.youtube.com/user/JemryMellows/videos

Shield Project
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8qlxxl1MJG4kbwTAtGINnA/videos


HuffPost Live: 3 Strong Women Of #GamerGate Fight Back!
Video Game Journalism (YTheAlien)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtzrUsi6Y1s

Oliver Campbell
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChmrNHm_JSzGeDJZoQriOyg

Oliver Campbell stream #gamergate Threedog's news radio
A worthy watch with discussion with an industry insider and other people who just don't reflect the claims being thrown our way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8SG7QuxqD4
mp3 version
http://www.mediafire.com/download/1zyjznam05qybuk/Threedog's+#Gamergate+News+Radio+Ep+4.mp3
https://twitter.com/oliverbcampbell/status/523598999886897152



Anti-GamerGate Threats, Anti-Notyourshield Racism & Falsifying Narratives
EventStatus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5ZoYSILbQ8

EA&#8217;s GamerGate Hypocrisy, Mighty No 9 Chargebacks, ISIS Video Game, Weaponizing Oculus + More!
EventStatus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVoRnW8u19I


EA&#8217;s GamerGate Hypocrisy, Mighty No 9 Chargebacks, ISIS Video Game, Weaponizing Oculus + More!
EventStatus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVoRnW8u19I



EA&#8217;s Anti-Rape Pledge, Mighty No 9 GamerGate Bans, FFVII Remake Hoop Jumping + More!
EventStatus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qvy-gHkxOY



Honey Badger Radio: Zoe Quinn and the Feminist Mean Girls
karen straughan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7kMjxlPlM8

A Conversation with #GamerGate and #NotYourShield
Sargon of Akkad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzW9EkyP1c4


A strangely "diverse" "hate" group huh

This is closer to the truth of what's going on


The gaming media elite is comprised a clique of white hipsters who go around on a high horse of hypocrisy.

They are the least diverse group around.

White people
Arstechnica
http://arstechnica.com/staff-directory/

white people
Kotaku
http://kotaku.com/whats-a-kotaku-who-works-here-458637663

So many white people
Destructoid

http://www.destructoid.com/staff.phtml

Polygon
again more white people
http://www.polygon.com/pages/about

The verge, again a buncha mostly white men
http://www.theverge.com/about-the-verge

and it just goes on and on...

xoxo is pretty much a fascist rally..
http://gamergate.giz.moe/2014/09/independence-myth/


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2014/10/17/Supporting-GamerGate-Does-Not-Make-You-a-Bully
 
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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Well, he was in the middle of a rather large journalistic integrity debacle several years ago. He ran with an honest (and negative) review of Kane and Lynch. Eidos had ads all over Gamespot (where Jeff was editor-in-chief) and curiously Jeff was fired within a few days of the negative review. It blew up in Gamespot's face as most of the staff left including Brad, Alex, Ryan, and Vinny. They all eventually got together and created a new website called Giantbomb where they had great success and, ironically, were eventually purchased by CBS who owns Gamespot. So to say Jeff or his website are dishonest is really strange, since the thing that started their website was them being super honest about games. They even run the site mainly on a subscription model as to not have to be completely bound by ad money. They practically created the video driven gaming coverage we have now by producing weekly live streams and doing quick looks (they coined the term.)

Do we know the politics between Gamespot and any publishers at the time of that article? Was his relationship with his work already strained when he wrote that article? Furthermore just because someone is willing to write negative or possible even accurate reviews does that mean they are certainly and completely unbiased when it comes to politics?
 

PrincessFrosty

Platinum Member
Feb 13, 2008
2,301
68
91
www.frostyhacks.blogspot.com
Makes a good point, what does gamergate actually accomplish and if ethics in journalism is actually your major interest then gamergate is not the arena to make fruitful progress in. Nothing specific, but more of a cease fire to reflect on what little has been accomplished and what is really important.

The first step to fixing any social problem is awareness, the facts need to be documented by large teams of people who all corroborate each others work and build a body of knowledge which is known to be accurate. Then the issue has to filter down through society so people can be informed of the issue. Finally encouraging people to act on that information comes last. Giving the number of tweets and the insane amount of information compiled by gamer gate I'd say they're well on their way.

I think the core issue that this individual you've offered posts from, Anita Sarkeesian and their ilk who feel as they do is that they don't understand the reality of demographics in gaming.

These types of SJWs and feminists are ideologues remember, reality isn't what you measure it to be, it's what their ideology tells them it is, all supporting "evidence" is used without critique (and so is often wrong or inaccurate), and all counter evidence is part of some system to oppress them, usually patriarchy, the "boys club" wanting to protect itself.

Remember these people are weaving narratives to explain away counter evidence, none of them use strict scientific and peer reviewed data, they just spew whatever nonsense sounds good to them and other SJWs who parrot it on ad nauseam

Console and PC gaming's demographic is overwhelmingly teen to mid 20s males. They are the core audience and any successful entity whether a developer, reviewer or 'journalist' (lol) will be focused on that core demographic if they want to maintain success. You can see the results of ignoring or attacking that core when you see outlets such as Polygon turning on the core demographic they are supposedly 'reporting' to.

Ultimately I think this is what we'll see, we just need 1 decent gaming journalism site to stand up to this and stop being silenced by political correctness, invstigate the issue and say something honest, and that demographic will spread the news throughout social media and flocks of people will move away from these others pro-SJW sites to somewhere which caters to their needs. The $64,000 question is who's going to do it first? There's a market for it now...brietbart got a lot of attention over this but isn't a games centric website. I think eventually some of the popular youtubers against this may reach out into this space, I'd love to see a gaming site with writers and pieces dealing with gamergate honestly, written by people like internet aristocrat and Mundane Matt.

I'm not sure what planet these SJWs are living on where they expect any industry to sacrifice profitability and success in order to appease a vocal minority's view on right and wrong. The reality is that if there were a profitable market out there in making games within the tiny narrow minded wheelhouse of someone like Anita Sarkeesian then that market would be getting filled.

SJWs simply aren't that well educated in issues of reality, it's not specific to gaming they lack the basic understanding of how the free market works as a general rule, look at the 77c on the dollar argument feminists make when comparing wages to men. If they understood the free market they'd know that this wouldn't be sustainable. In a similar fashion they expect people to pander to feminists instead of their much larger core audience which is just foolish. People respond to incentives that's economics 101, if you fail to fill a gap in the market then someone else will and with their superiour revenue they'll present a threat to competition, the market sways the way the market wants to, no matter your ideology.

If they wanted to simply prove their case then people like Anita could have kickstarted their own game (of which there are many popular and successful games already) and demonstrated that there's a female audience for this kind of non-sexist, non-mysogynistic game. But that's not happened, ask yourself why.

I just shake my head at all this hoopla because a year from now it will be forgotten in all but their minds, and the console and PC game industry will be no different in the content it is producing today.

Yep.

You change the content not by changing the minds of the developers, you need to change the minds of the people who create demand because developers can come and go with their ideologies but the ones who make it will be the ones who pander to what the customer wants.

To sway the minds of the customers you need to actually come up with a good argument and this simply isn't something that idiots like Anita Sarkeesian has done, just take a look at the hundreds of well thought out counter arguments and deconstructions of her work all over youtube, the common gamer who goes out and spends money on what they like simply isn't convinced.

She's got lots of awards and spoken at all sorts of conferences and won over the love and attention of some developers, journalists and many SJWs and feminists, but none of them are capable of making change, they'll spout their nonsense as long as the free market lets them stay alive and profitable, then someone else will come along and fill that gap.

Mark my words if this continues we'll see some pro gamer gate websites start up and start providing content, and a flock of readers away from the shit and towards what they really want, honest reporting, anti-ideology, and focus on the things they love and not being told they're bad people who are hurting women for liking it.
 

Merad

Platinum Member
May 31, 2010
2,586
19
81
The same way you have time and energy to care about the BS that you care about.

Yeah, that's my point. I don't even have time to care about all the stuff that is important. Seems like most people in this thread (at least the ones who keep posting page long rants 2-3 times a day) need to get a life outside of the internet.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,980
4
0
Yeah, that's my point. I don't even have time to care about all the stuff that is important. Seems like most people in this thread (at least the ones who keep posting page long rants 2-3 times a day) need to get a life outside of the internet.

So, because you choose to have a life more chaotic than others means that other people are in the wrong or that there is something wrong with someone else because they choose a life more simple than yours, a life that allows them to care about things that you deem unimportant?

Classy. :thumbsup:
 
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