Conflict of interest in game journalism.

[Topweasel]

I agree that Youtube can be and often is a cesspit.

Unfortunately though, there many popular, more subscribed, and dare I say more "controversial" individuals who post often divisive topics on their channels, and their ratings and comment section remains open. As much as I personally don't usually care for his style, one of Sarkeesian's bigger critics, The Amazing Atheist, has kept his comments and ratings open, and made it a point to address the more coherent arguments against him or that may come up in video responses.

When you have someone like pewtiepie or whatever his name is not only disabling comments but months later saying his health is better for it. It's to easy to say your wrong. He might be an annoying douche but he is a beloved annoying douche to a lot of people and even he had enough with Youtube comments to the point it was affecting his health.

Its to easy to why someone else who happens to be dealing with a very charged topic might not want to deal with them and find a better neutral ground to debate on. That said Anita doesn't seem to want to actually debate anything. It's a fault that will actually hurt her and her goals in the long run because by the end when she runs out of valid points she will keep going and by the end she will be another Jack Thompson.

Now AA on the other hand is nearly a professional contrarian. Unlike most people he can brush off most of the attacks. But he actually gets a kick out of debating and could go on and on without traction's on any debate. Even one as simple as the best cereal. Eventually causing the other party to give up. Someone doesn't have to love debating in an attempt to bring to light an issue they have. Youtube comment blocking is not a valid complaint against Anita.

 

[blake0812]

When you have someone like pewtiepie or whatever his name is not only disabling comments but months later saying his health is better for it. It's to easy to say your wrong. He might be an annoying douche but he is a beloved annoying douche to a lot of people and even he had enough with Youtube comments to the point it was affecting his health.

Its to easy to why someone else who happens to be dealing with a very charged topic might not want to deal with them and find a better neutral ground to debate on. That said Anita doesn't seem to want to actually debate anything. It's a fault that will actually hurt her and her goals in the long run because by the end when she runs out of valid points she will keep going and by the end she will be another Jack Thompson.

Now AA on the other hand is nearly a professional contrarian. Unlike most people he can brush off most of the attacks. But he actually gets a kick out of debating and could go on and on without traction's on any debate. Even one as simple as the best cereal. Eventually causing the other party to give up. Someone doesn't have to love debating in an attempt to bring to light an issue they have. Youtube comment blocking is not a valid complaint against Anita.

If she wanted to have a discussion, she could have moderated the comments or have others self moderate. She has made no commitment to reaching out to debate.

 

[desura]

Is it really I bet I could come up with 10 games that don't for every one game you list that does.

Maybe. Frankly, I don't care all that much. Why is everyone so threatened by her? Games will still be made all the same. It's really a sign of insecurity that people get so angry.

 

[blake0812]

Maybe. Frankly, I don't care all that much. Why is everyone so threatened by her? Games will still be made all the same. It's really a sign of insecurity that people get so angry.

Because when you make big points and don't allow discussion of whether those points are true or not, you come off as spewing things you don't understand.

 

[Blue_Max]

Maybe. Frankly, I don't care all that much. Why is everyone so threatened by her? Games will still be made all the same. It's really a sign of insecurity that people get so angry.

You really think it's a "sign of insecurity" to be angry when someone screams hateful lies about you, publicly mocks you, and wishes bullying and death upon your entire culture AND gender?

Outrage is the perfectly normal, proper and healthy reaction to such savagery.

 

[Topweasel]

If she wanted to have a discussion, she could have moderated the comments or have others self moderate. She has made no commitment to reaching out to debate.

Like I said she doesn't seem willing to debate on any level. Just saying not debating on Youtube isn't a valid criticism. Maybe praise the few that do.

 

[desura]

You really think it's a "sign of insecurity" to be angry when someone screams hateful lies about you, publicly mocks you, and wishes bullying and death upon your entire culture AND gender?

Outrage is the perfectly normal, proper and healthy reaction to such savagery.

Video games don't define me.

 

[Topweasel]

Maybe. Frankly, I don't care all that much. Why is everyone so threatened by her? Games will still be made all the same. It's really a sign of insecurity that people get so angry.

I am not really that bothered by her. She is right on many levels. I have issues with the assertion that its as prevalent as you described. It's really easy to point to certain AAA titles aimed at a particular user group (14-25 yr old males) and find these faults in them. Its gaming's biggest buying group and so it gets the most mental and financial resources.

But I have played half a dozen A-AAA games this year with nearly none of her tropes and several of them actually empower women in the games. Wolfenstien, TWD season 2, Alien Isolation, Mudered: Soul Suspect, FFXIII, TR, State of Decay. And so on. Can we and should we analyze the games that do fall back on some of the tropes? Sure. Can we push developers to think harder about the tropes they use? Sure. But we can't pretend the whole gaming environment is like that or that there aren't stories to be told that rely on being able to use these tropes.

 

[desura]

I am not really that bothered by her. She is right on many levels. I have issues with the assertion that its as prevalent as you described. It's really easy to point to certain AAA titles aimed at a particular user group (14-25 yr old males) and find these faults in them. Its gaming's biggest buying group and so it gets the most mental and financial resources.

But I have played half a dozen A-AAA games this year with nearly none of her tropes and several of them actually empower women in the games. Wolfenstien, TWD season 2, Alien Isolation, Mudered: Soul Suspect, FFXIII, TR, State of Decay. And so on. Can we and should we analyze the games that do fall back on some of the tropes? Sure. Can we push developers to think harder about the tropes they use? Sure. But we can't pretend the whole gaming environment is like that or that there aren't stories to be told that rely on being able to use these tropes.

It is definitely present. You and I being males tend to gloss over such things. Females will notice it more.

I don't think that little nitpick is the issue.

 

[Topweasel]

It is definitely present. You and I being males tend to gloss over such things. Females will notice it more.

I don't think that little nitpick is the issue.

That's such a blank and useless response. Where, how was it demeaning, was it a needed plot point, where all women degraded, where there any men degraded?

This needs to brought up. I could show a cut scene from TWD S2 that had a bad guy that felt possessive over a female that he may have coerced to sleep with. But in the same game you are a female child that everyone relies on, the strongest and most centered character you deal with in the game is a female, the baddy tortures pretty much to death a guy, when taking a hostage the team ties up an hits a boy. There is nothing damning or misogynistic about this game. It's equally dark to both sexes and while containing moments where Anita's tropes come in.

If Anita was right about it's prevalance, the person the baddy beat would have been the pregnant ex. You would either be playing a 12 year old boy, or even a full blown guy. The strong loner would have looked like Daryl and the hostage would have been the guys sister who you would then have to stop the other guys from raping and she would fall in love with you for helping her out. People act like these are major plot lines and take up the whole game. Because we call them tropes it's gives us this idea that its so repetitive that it had to be named. But they aren't that prevalent and even when they happen there are legitimate uses for them. In a game like TWD S2 there might be nearly 10 the amount of time spent on demeaning, depowering, or destroying men vs. the 2-3 times it happened for women. It's the same in a lot of the games she brings up.

 

[BoberFett]

Maybe. Frankly, I don't care all that much.

You don't care whether or not what you stated was factual?

No wonder you side with Sarkeesian.

 

[desura]

You don't care whether or not what you stated was factual?

No wonder you side with Sarkeesian.

It doesn't matter. Games are diversions. As I said earlier...I'm not defined by games. I hope no one here defines himself by games.

 

[Nebor]

It doesn't matter. Games are diversions. As I said earlier...I'm not defined by games. I hope no one here defines himself by games.

Loses argument: "I didn't really care anyway."

 

[desura]

That's such a blank and useless response. Where, how was it demeaning, was it a needed plot point, where all women degraded, where there any men degraded?

This needs to brought up. I could show a cut scene from TWD S2 that had a bad guy that felt possessive over a female that he may have coerced to sleep with. But in the same game you are a female child that everyone relies on, the strongest and most centered character you deal with in the game is a female, the baddy tortures pretty much to death a guy, when taking a hostage the team ties up an hits a boy. There is nothing damning or misogynistic about this game. It's equally dark to both sexes and while containing moments where Anita's tropes come in.

If Anita was right about it's prevalance, the person the baddy beat would have been the pregnant ex. You would either be playing a 12 year old boy, or even a full blown guy. The strong loner would have looked like Daryl and the hostage would have been the guys sister who you would then have to stop the other guys from raping and she would fall in love with you for helping her out. People act like these are major plot lines and take up the whole game. Because we call them tropes it's gives us this idea that its so repetitive that it had to be named. But they aren't that prevalent and even when they happen there are legitimate uses for them. In a game like TWD S2 there might be nearly 10 the amount of time spent on demeaning, depowering, or destroying men vs. the 2-3 times it happened for women. It's the same in a lot of the games she brings up.

You brought up one game. Whooptie-doo.

I've played a number of games in my life. I have noticed a trend. Yes, some games are better and more intelligent. I'd cite Half Life 2's Alyx and The Darkness II's slow-dance scene as good examples of women being portrayed well. But I'm not going to use them to say that she has a worthless argument. I've noticed that lots of games are really bad on the misogyny meter. Taken on a whole, it is to be expected, given that most developers are male, most gamers are male.

And yes, there is a pattern of this. She points it out. How does this harm you or anyone?

 

[BoberFett]

It doesn't matter. Games are diversions. As I said earlier...I'm not defined by games. I hope no one here defines himself by games.

How very enlightened of you. Yet another example of the two-faced nature of the social justice movement.

Women and other "oppressed" classes demand the right to define themselves any way they choose, but you tell people not to define themselves by their interests, if it happens to be games.

 

[Nebor]

You brought up one game. Whooptie-doo.

I've played a number of games in my life. I have noticed a trend. Yes, some games are better and more intelligent. I'd cite Half Life 2's Alyx and The Darkness II's slow-dance scene as good examples of women being portrayed well. But I'm not going to use them to say that she has a worthless argument. I've noticed that lots of games are really bad on the misogyny meter. Taken on a whole, it is to be expected, given that most developers are male, most gamers are male.

And yes, there is a pattern of this. She points it out. How does this harm you or anyone?

You don't even care about video games. What are you doing here?

 

[desura]

You don't even care about video games. What are you doing here?

The fk? I enjoy video games. I buy them and I play them. I think about them. I don't think about the misogyny that much. I think about gameplay mechanics and the art that goes into them.

This is like protesting that football isn't violent.

 

[Blue_Max]

The fk? I enjoy video games. I buy them and I play them. I think about them. I don't think about the misogyny that much. I think about gameplay mechanics and the art that goes into them.

Horsesh*t.

How can you tell a feminist is in the room? You can smell the utter BS from a mile away. But then, that's what feminism is all about -- it began with lies, was based on lies, spreads by lies, and maintains itself with lies.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Horsesh*t.

How can you tell a feminist is in the room? You can smell the utter BS from a mile away. But then, that's what feminism is all about -- it began with lies, was based on lies, spreads by lies, and maintains itself with lies.

Hogwash. Feminism is just the belief that men and women deserve equal rights and socioeconomic opportunity. I can understand having a beef with radical feminism, because those people are insane, but most people are actually in favor of the basic tenets of feminism.

 

[Blue_Max]

Hogwash. Feminism is just the belief that men and women deserve equal rights and socioeconomic opportunity. I can understand having a beef with radical feminism, because those people are insane, but most people are actually in favor of the basic tenets of feminism.

Wrong. From its very onset it's about "patriarchy" and how women are "subjugated". From top to bottom, its most basic principles are to paint men as oppressors, therefore feminists have the *right* to treat them with utter cruelty. This was even true way back in the first wave, where suffragettes who earned income encouraged each other NOT to pay their taxes, forcing their husbands (or ex) to pay it instead.

And your basic idea of feminism wouldn't be necessary if sooooomeone weren't withholding those equal rights, eh?

I picture a whiner, endlessly moaning, "Oh, if only I had a house to live in!" ...from within the house she's living in. She's "fighting" (usually with a white feather) for what she already has! Often in greater quantity than the men she claims are oppressing her and withholding what she wants.


So, more on topic, why do feminists hate gamers and the games they play? Probably because it's the very last bastion of male behaviour left in the world they can penetrate (since they can't defeat Islamic culture, where the women truly NEED rights!) Men can be violent, heroic, forceful, dominant, the leader... all traits being weeded out of men in the first world and given to women.
These people are also less involved in the social system they have nearly complete control over. They live in their game worlds instead of the feminist world they've so carefully constructed to give themselves power and dominance. Rather than catering to her wants and making her feel special, they walk past her and turn on their Playstation. Not giving the princess the attention she deserves is an insufferable outrage and will NOT be tolerated.

 

[Aikouka]

I've noticed that lots of games are really bad on the misogyny meter.

I'd like to see some examples of these terribly misogynistic games. To be clear, you do realize that the definition of misogyny is "Hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women." The chance that a game is actively promoting misogyny versus just using tried-and-true/old-as-dirt story tropes (i.e. damsel in distress) is probably incredibly small.

 

[desura]

I'd like to see some examples of these terribly misogynistic games. To be clear, you do realize that the definition of misogyny is "Hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women." The chance that a game is actively promoting misogyny versus just using tried-and-true/old-as-dirt story tropes (i.e. damsel in distress) is probably incredibly small.

Duke Nukem? God of war? As I said, I tend to gloss over the stupid insensitive parts of games, but I do believe that they do exist.

 

[Aikouka]

Duke Nukem? God of war? As I said, I tend to gloss over the stupid insensitive parts of games, but I do believe that they do exist.

I think you're missing my point. Just because a game lacks a strong female character and/or portrays females in raunchier roles does not make the game misogynistic. Can you argue that it's in poor taste? Sure! However, that can be awfully subjective at times.

I'm actually quite tired of this whole thing. It may have started with journalistic ethics, but the loudest people seem to just be fine bickering over the dumbest of things. I saw a video the other day where a pro-GamerGate person wanted an apology from the journalists that referred to gamers in a highly negative light. I couldn't help but think, "Really? You're really so unraveled by some random person calling you a 'basement-dweller' or 'neck-beard' that you must have an apology? Good grief!"

Why can't we just shut up and enjoy our games? If Sarkeesian or whoever has an issue, how about trying to work with developers to see if they can make the games more palatable? All I see are people blowing a bunch of hot air and/or making some rather brash assertions.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Wrong. From its very onset it's about "patriarchy" and how women are "subjugated". From top to bottom, its most basic principles are to paint men as oppressors, therefore feminists have the *right* to treat them with utter cruelty. This was even true way back in the first wave, where suffragettes who earned income encouraged each other NOT to pay their taxes, forcing their husbands (or ex) to pay it instead.

And your basic idea of feminism wouldn't be necessary if sooooomeone weren't withholding those equal rights, eh?

The first wave of suffragettes tried (and failed) to avoid paying taxes on their income because they weren't allowed to vote. You might remember that as the principle this country was founded on; no taxation without representation. It's more than slightly disingenuous to claim that this was somehow because feminists hate men, but you seem to think that everything exists in diametric conflict with no space for middle ground. Do you think that black people in the civil rights movement hated whites? Do you think proponents of gay marriage hate straights? It takes a special kind of person to play with a toy, and when someone says, "hey, that looks like fun, can we join you?" scream "NO, WHY ARE YOU OPPRESSING ME YOU CRUEL PEOPLE?!" But anyone who literally says that suffragettes were "painting men as oppressors and treating them with cruelty" has a tenuous grasp of logic. Too bad you weren't around in the 18th Century to lament how these brash upstarts were making it hard to find good tea.

 

[desura]

I think you're missing my point. Just because a game lacks a strong female character and/or portrays females in raunchier roles does not make the game misogynistic. Can you argue that it's in poor taste? Sure! However, that can be awfully subjective at times.

I'm actually quite tired of this whole thing. It may have started with journalistic ethics, but the loudest people seem to just be fine bickering over the dumbest of things. I saw a video the other day where a pro-GamerGate person wanted an apology from the journalists that referred to gamers in a highly negative light. I couldn't help but think, "Really? You're really so unraveled by some random person calling you a 'basement-dweller' or 'neck-beard' that you must have an apology? Good grief!"

Why can't we just shut up and enjoy our games? If Sarkeesian or whoever has an issue, how about trying to work with developers to see if they can make the games more palatable? All I see are people blowing a bunch of hot air and/or making some rather brash assertions.

I think you're holding it up as like a narrow first-degree intent here. She doesn't even do that. It just is.

I agree that this is way overblown. But really it is the gamergate people who are the problem. They're acting like prima donnas who have had their civil rights infringed because someone criticized games.