Conflict of interest in game journalism.

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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
I think you're holding it up as like a narrow first-degree intent here.

Why wouldn't you look at the game at face value? My problem is that it sounds like you're making assumptions of the intent of the developers without having any idea of their actual intent. I think Anita and a few others are quite guilty of that as well. Ultimately, I find that she has a really bad habit of painting something to fit her narrative. I've only watch a bit of her videos, but I always see her show off scenes and attempt to push it as being harmful to the player's view of women. My question to that is... how do you know it has any effect? I have never once seen her quote any sort of scientific study to show how tones and such from games affect the player.

I don't think she's wrong about those being tropes, but the thing is... what's wrong with that? I see the same thing when people discuss clichés in movies. In my opinion, a cliché in a movie isn't inherently bad; it depends on how well it is used that makes it work.

I agree that this is way overblown. But really it is the gamergate people who are the problem. They're acting like prima donnas who have had their civil rights infringed because someone criticized games.

The problem exists on both sides. The real problem is that people keep butting into the whole "argument" for different reasons. At least from what I've seen, this whole thing started over allegations that Zoe Quinn had a clandestine relationship with a member of the gaming press and that presented a conflict of interest that wasn't disclosed. However, as per is usual on the Internet (note: that does not mean it's okay), people started treating her rather terribly. From what I can tell, that's when the whole misogyny thing really started gaining traction, and it took off like crazy with Anita reporting all of her threats. Keep in mind that Anita has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic, but that doesn't really matter to some.

It's a huge fustercluck!
 

Dumac

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,391
1
0
They're acting like prima donnas who have had their civil rights infringed because someone criticized games.

I thought the problem is that the so-called-journalists DON'T criticize games, and instead release press reports and announcements for big AAA companies that pay them and small indie devs that happen to be their friends.

These game sites are closer to devs, publishers, and PR agencies than they are to their readers, who they berate and insult.
 

Dumac

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,391
1
0
Horsesh*t.

How can you tell a feminist is in the room? You can smell the utter BS from a mile away. But then, that's what feminism is all about -- it began with lies, was based on lies, spreads by lies, and maintains itself with lies.

Found the crazy bigot.

Look in the mirror man. You are what you seem to hate.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,655
136
It doesn't matter. Games are diversions. As I said earlier...I'm not defined by games. I hope no one here defines himself by games.

No but for a lot of people it's there hobby, like fixing a car, growing a garden, collecting coins. So people are emotionally connected to the games they play.

You brought up one game. Whooptie-doo.

I've played a number of games in my life. I have noticed a trend. Yes, some games are better and more intelligent. I'd cite Half Life 2's Alyx and The Darkness II's slow-dance scene as good examples of women being portrayed well. But I'm not going to use them to say that she has a worthless argument. I've noticed that lots of games are really bad on the misogyny meter. Taken on a whole, it is to be expected, given that most developers are male, most gamers are male.

And yes, there is a pattern of this. She points it out. How does this harm you or anyone?

I never said it harms me but I do have to ask why you are even here. I am not here to support gamers gate. I am not here to support feminism's push to remove valid and useful story telling technique's out of false offense just to push their agenda either. I actually contributed to Anita's kickstarter (not much only a couple dollars or so) because I think the topic needed to be approached. I don't like the abuse that her and others have faced for voicing their opinions (whether I agree with them or not) and I don't like GGer's pretending that they aren't part of this problem just because they (on a singular level) weren't the ones sending the tweets, emails, and phone calls.

That said there are valid points to be made about her cherry picking. Because she shifted away from games that use disenfranchised Females as a core of the story. She has been showing singular examples in games out of context or in the case of at least the Hitman example completely blowing up the context and objectives of the game just because it could be done. That's damaging to her because it's only useful as long as the populace doesn't know the context. It's damaging to us because she and others want to limit story telling to the point either you or someone else (not digging back through the thread) compared all of the depowered female scenes to black face.

If you and others can't see the importance of these tropes and their male (but not named) counterparts in storytelling, then read carefully the next few books. Watch carefully when watching the next few episodes of your next TV show. Really analyze the movies that you watch. I gave an example and could do it again of a game that came out this year where female characters where you can get a cutscene or two of one or more of Anita's tropes. But in context of the whole game women where actually empowered. How many times in Female led shows do you see the female character caught, tied up, being harassed, being assaulted, and so on. One of my favorite shows has one of the strongest female characters on TV in L&O:SVU. A recent season finale/season preimere had her being kidnapped and nearly raped. But if I just looked at one or two scenes in that 2-3 hour span, one could assume that show was misogynistic. But that couldn't be farther from the truth. That is what Anita is doing now.

Now in your two examples can you give me any examples in GoW or Duke Nukem where Anita's tropes come in? Your right it's probably not that hard to find them. But can you tell me how often that happens? Can you tell me if men where ever shown in similar light in either game? Was it as many times as women, less, more?

Let me make it easier have you actually played a game recently that was overly misogynistic? If so what? If not, did you play a game recently that had so called jarring scenes that were out of place that degraded or depowered women? If so what and why was it jarring?
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
If people really were emotionally invested, we would be discussing fine points of game plots on these gaming forums all the time. Instead, no, we discuss gameplay mechanics and the cool shit you can do in the game. Moments of far-out that was insane stuff, or that bug was bullshit. We hardly ever discuss plots or stories in games. Heck, most Call of Duty players, the game franchise which IMO has one of the best SP campaigns in all gaming, skip the SP campaign entirely.

There is a healthy feminist criticism industry of television. I'm not sure if it is humanly possible to play through all of these games (with a gameplay recorder) and at the same time watch all of this TV and stay conscious throughout. What I'm trying to get at is you are probably right that TV has a misogyny problem also, but her focus is on gaming.

That said, I think that the general violence in games is a bigger problem than misogyny. Games pretty much teach that violence is the solution to all problems.
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
3,980
4
0
The number of women who die in games is an insignificant fraction of the number of men who die. The whole misogyny argument is entirely horse feces.
 

master_shake_

Diamond Member
May 22, 2012
6,430
291
121
The number of women who die in games is an insignificant fraction of the number of men who die. The whole misogyny argument is entirely horse feces.

this.

whats the kill count on battlefield or COD?

all men ALL MEN.

seems that men hate men more than they hate women.
 

MrPickins

Diamond Member
May 24, 2003
9,022
600
126
You really think it's a "sign of insecurity" to be angry when someone screams hateful lies about you, publicly mocks you, and wishes bullying and death upon your entire culture AND gender?

When it's someone who has absolutely no effect on you life and is not referring to you personally? Yes.


Outrage is the perfectly normal, proper and healthy reaction to such savagery.

LOL

If you go through life with your panties in a wad about what random people think about your hobby, you're gonna end up a bitter old man.
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
153
106
When it's someone who has absolutely no effect on you life and is not referring to you personally? Yes.

LOL

If you go through life with your panties in a wad about what random people think about your hobby, you're gonna end up a bitter old man.

Uh-huh. Remember that if they win and you're not allowed to play games anymore. These feminazi scum are changing all the laws that criminalize pretty much anything "maleness"... remember your apathy when you're castrated in the streets on ex-father's day (like they propose.)
 

scooterlibby

Senior member
Feb 28, 2009
752
0
0
Uh-huh. Remember that if they win and you're not allowed to play games anymore. These feminazi scum are changing all the laws that criminalize pretty much anything "maleness"... remember your apathy when you're castrated in the streets on ex-father's day (like they propose.)

Can't tell if serious.

Even funnier if so.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
I thought the problem is that the so-called-journalists DON'T criticize games, and instead release press reports and announcements for big AAA companies that pay them and small indie devs that happen to be their friends.

These game sites are closer to devs, publishers, and PR agencies than they are to their readers, who they berate and insult.

Yeah, that is the real problem. I wish more games took really adventuresome leaps
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
153
106
Can't tell if serious.

Even funnier if so.

Then enjoy!
http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=87815

And fun quotes from their great leaders and heroines:
"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo."
— Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto

"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."
— Valerie Solana, SCUM founder (Society for Cutting Up Men.)

"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness…can be trained to do most things."
— Jilly Cooper, SCUM (Society For Cutting Up Men, started by Valerie Solanas)

"Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women’s movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage." — Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW

"I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig." — Andrea Dworkin



Here in Canada, family laws MUST pass a board of feminists before they're allowed to pass. Needless to say, fathers almost never get custody and are universally overcharged for spousal and child support.


THESE are the people who want to change games. They don't like men, they don't want men to enjoy the things they like, they don't want any display of maleness in anything other than a negative light.

Imagine all games where the protagonist MUST be female, men are ALWAYS the hostile aggressors - or just a zillion games like candy crush where there's simply no gender or story at all.

This is the future of gaming if psychotic nutbags like Blowee Quinn, Anita Squack-esian and others succeed in their mission.

You may think their ranting is stupid and not worth worrying about, but the fact Sarky's in every paper and national TV shows she's got a lot of support and gaining more every day.

No more shooting allowed because she finds it "gross".


Am I overreacting? A little... mostly to counteract the extreme apathy of the people who don't give a crap about their possible demise.


"Gamers are DEAD!! We want to bring back bullying to make sure you're punished for not looking handsome and buying things to impress me!"

You're really okay with that??
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
Uh-huh. Remember that if they win and you're not allowed to play games anymore. These feminazi scum are changing all the laws that criminalize pretty much anything "maleness"... remember your apathy when you're castrated in the streets on ex-father's day (like they propose.)

Am I overreacting? A little... mostly to counteract the extreme apathy of the people who don't give a crap about their possible demise.

Overreacting?! If anything, you're UNDERREACTING! These people need to know how radical feminists like Andrea Dworkin and Valerie Solanas are coming for their videogames in spite of the noticeable handicap of being dead. Combine these man-hating zombies with middling Youtube "celebrities" apparently running a secret global cabal whose only aims are the eradication of videogames and the seemingly unrelated but actually completely logical public castration of all men and you're looking at a borderline apocalypse for our species. The people need to know.

But actually it's about ethics in gaming journalism...
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
153
106
But actually it's about ethics in gaming journalism...
...with Quinn and Sarky leading the charge. Discussing them and their agendas isn't exactly far off subject. Hard to imagine who'd throw in with the likes of them... and yet that's what so many of the publishers did.

Game reviewers calling gamers "dead"... makes as much sense as Apple saying, "Don't buy our stuff - it ain't cool!"
 

blake0812

Senior member
Feb 6, 2014
788
4
81
...with Quinn and Sarky leading the charge. Discussing them and their agendas isn't exactly far off subject. Hard to imagine who'd throw in with the likes of them... and yet that's what so many of the publishers did.

Game reviewers calling gamers "dead"... makes as much sense as Apple saying, "Don't buy our stuff - it ain't cool!"

And they'll claim that "they don't mean GAMERS, they mean GAMERS, big difference".
 

obidamnkenobi

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2010
1,407
423
136
Then enjoy! http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=87815 And fun quotes from their great leaders and heroines: "To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking dildo." — Valerie Solanas, Authoress of the SCUM Manifesto
So your reply to a debate about depiction of women in video games is quotes from a (likely) mental disturbed woman who's been dead 26 years? ehh, ok.

I'm still 50-50 on you being a troll. That last one just went a bit too far to be real
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
153
106
So your reply to a debate about depiction of women in video games is quotes from a (likely) mental disturbed woman who's been dead 26 years? ehh, ok.

I'm still 50-50 on you being a troll. That last one just went a bit too far to be real

Her suicide was fake, and she's not the only nutjob who's rooting for Male Castration Day. Here, she explains the hatred in feminism way better than I can: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDYAVROaIcs

...and just for fun, all the great heroines of modern feminism in one zippy blurb: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbzF-Q_ZEDg
 
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0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
#GamerGate Happenings Recap with Socks 11/11
NEET LIFE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ1MMcXgoS8



Anita Sarkeesians Master Thesis -Pure Comedy Gold!
Thunderf00t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szfhRRxJNmQ


Proof #GamerGate is About Misogyny (Not) Corruption
LeoPirate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zbj6_K31Kls

(Satire) Jonathan McIntosh On Narratives of Narratives
Shady Propaganda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EOyV9f2g6k

A Conversation with a AAA Concept Artist #GamerGate #NotYourShield
Sargon of Akkad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3UEdfKbKmU

https://twitter.com/fateofmorality/status/530517110477553664


https://twitter.com/realgamer07/status/532375353608507392



(Satire) Jonathan McIntosh On Narratives of Narratives
Shady Propaganda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EOyV9f2g6k

Twitter has involved a radical feminist group in account moderation, a bunch of gamergate people got suspended already of course, the second they got power, they abused it to silence their ideological opponents. Pretty disgusting that twitter has allowed this to happen.

https://twitter.com/RogueStarGamez/status/532005135837569024
https://twitter.com/boxofbudgies/status/532030810862280704
https://archive.today/z0KUq

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/11/10/the-sjws-now-get-to-police-speech-on-twitter/
https://twitter.com/thunderf00t/status/531970823603888129
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/11/11/the-sjws-now-get-to-police-speech-on-twitter-ctd/

Several have had their accounts reinstated, mykeru and jordan owen are still suspended.

Mykeru explains these people pretty well which is why they consider him dangerous.

Feminist Hypocrisy
MykeruMedia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgU2LEPdpMc


#TheSarkeesianEffect: WAM on Twitter and my Suspension
jordanowen42
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJB5dRqlfSs


And male feminists...



TEDx White Knights - The Differences Between Men & Women
SkepTorr
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU3-D-5aIgA

These are the guys who have allowed this to happen.
 
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