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chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
Reading comprehension for the loss.

I say use low / no carbon power.
You: It's gonna release to much carbon11!!!! Keep them poorrrr11!!!!!!

Basically what I expect from folks who are physics deniers.

No, I got exactly what you said. You want to take sheep herders that have nothing as a society, supply (and all that carbon production that will come into producing, transporting, and providing) a first world lifestyle to these formerly simple sheep herders, and then talk about the magical energy consumption that is going to be plentiful and cheap enough to provide to their poor country. How much carbon does it take to make all the shit from China and get it to them? Nothing?

EDIT: And when I say sheep herders, I mean the 1B extra sheep herders on top of the ones that exist now - all on first world lifestyles instead of current lifestyle.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
I'm fine with improving legal requirements and paying for those requirements as long as it's done at a reasonable pace, and I think most people would agree with me on this.

That's generally how the government accomplishes it's environmental goals. CAFE standards raise over a significant number of years and things like renewable portfolio standards have a goal set a number of years out that is achievable.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,846
13,777
146
No, I got exactly what you said. You want to take sheep herders that have nothing as a society, supply (and all that carbon production that will come into producing, transporting, and providing) a first world lifestyle to these formerly simple sheep herders, and then talk about the magical energy consumption that is going to be plentiful and cheap enough to provide to their poor country. How much carbon does it take to make all the shit from China and get it to them? Nothing?

EDIT: And when I say sheep herders, I mean the 1B extra sheep herders on top of the ones that exist now - all on first world lifestyles instead of current lifestyle.

What the fuck are you smoking. The first world continues to separate GDP growth from carbon growth. CO2 stalls while Global GDP grows

Turning the 3rd world into the 1st world is going to take a century. So plenty of time to continue reducing CO2 so those goods and services will continue to trend towards carbon neutral. Plus we can do it without trashing the economy in the process.

Sorry this idea isn't a sound bite for you.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,038
36
86
What the fuck are you smoking. The first world continues to separate GDP growth from carbon growth. CO2 stalls while Global GDP grows

Turning the 3rd world into the 1st world is going to take a century. So plenty of time to continue reducing CO2 so those goods and services will continue to trend towards carbon neutral. Plus we can do it without trashing the economy in the process.

Sorry this idea isn't a sound bite for you.

So magical thinking, got it. You could have just said We'll reduce the worlds carbon footprint by wishful thinking and saved us all the time, but I'm glad we've got that straight now. LOL Believers...
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,846
13,777
146
So magical thinking, got it. You could have just said We'll reduce the worlds carbon footprint by wishful thinking and saved us all the time, but I'm glad we've got that straight now. LOL Believers...

No magical thinking involved. Just what a possible solution could look like. Here's a look at whether it might be feasible.
Posted by me in another thread:

Paratus said:
So how do we go about stoping and reversing climate change? We'll start by using the goal Glenn gave in his thread of reducing our carbon foot print by 40% by 2050 and the IPCC goal of 100% in 2100.

To effectively analyze this issue we need to know three things:

  • How much power per capita do we need by 2050 and by 2100
  • Is there mix of power that could realistically reduce and eliminate our CO2 emissions
  • How much CO2 needs to be pulled out of the air to reverse MMGW

SECTION 1:
Power and Population

Our carbon footprint for the most part is tied to the global population, mix of power sources, and standard of living expressed in terms of kWH per person per year. Reduce any of these and our carbon foot print goes down.

Now the green extremists don't seem to care about people or standards of living as long as the environment is protected. The conservative extremists don't care about people or protecting the environment if it reduces profits/economy. While both extremes are just opposite side of the same crazy coin there is a kernel of truth in each. The environment needs to be protected because we need it. The economy also needs to be protected because we need it too.

So my goal is to find a solution that simultaneously maintains or raises the standard of living while reducing our carbon footprint.

The only way I see to do that is to reduce the future population of the planet. The only way to do that ethically and morally is to increase the standard of living in the third world so birth rates drop and global population declines.

To increase the standard of living the number of kWh per person per year must increase. To do that while simultaneously reducing our carbon foot print before the population begins to reduce means significantly changing our mix of power sources.

To answer this question we need to know whether it's possible to reduce global population through standard of living and are there alternative power sources that could reasonably displace coal, oil and natural gas.

First up global population. From UN projections we are looking most likely at slowing growth but still peeking at 10+billion by 2050.




The breakdown shows that most of the gain is coming from developing nations. Developed nations actually have slowly declining or stagnating populations:




When looking at the break down by country, the countries with the highest birth rates also have some of the lowest kWh per person per year.
List of Countries by Birth Rate

Table of Countries by kWh per capita per year

For example:

Ethiopia has a rate of natural increase (birth rate - death rate) of over 32 but only 52 kWh per person per year

Italy on the other hand has a slightly negative rate of natural increase of -1.26 and over 5500 kWh per capita per year.

So the question is:

If we assume that by taking action to raise 3rd world quality of living we'll hit the lower peak population of ~8.5billion in 2050 how many kWh do we need to raise everyone up to 1st world quality of living while replacing 40% fossil fuel usage.?


Assumption 1: 1st world quality of living standards (~ Italy@ 5500kwh/person year) will let us reach the lower predicted global population

Assumption 2: Efficiency gains of 10% will be available by 2050 lowering the total kWH per person year required by ~ 500kwh/ person year for the third world

Assumption 3: There are currently 6 billion people in the third world with an average 1000kwh/person year who will need another 4000kwh/person year to reach 1st world quality of living

Assumption 4: 1.5billion new people in the third world need 5000kwh/person year in 2050 to reach 1st world quality of living

So for new generation we need:

6billion people x (4000kwh/person year) + 1.5billion people x (5000kwh/person year) =

3.60TW or 31.5trillion kWH per year in additional generation in 2050


In 2014 the world used about 17TW of power or 1.496x10^14kWh/year

Split as follows:
  • Petroleum: 5.75TW
  • Coal: 5.12TW
  • Natural Gas: 4.11TW
  • Nuclear: 0.82TW
  • Renewable: 1.37TW


So to hit the target of 40% reduction of emissions by 2050 we need to replace:

.4 x (Coal + Natural Gas + Oil) =
5.96TW or 5.2X 10^13kWh/year

Total new clean power generation required for 2050 (40% fossil fuel replacement + new generation)= 5.96TW + 3.6TW =

9.56TW or 8.37 X 10^13 kwh/yr

Let's take a look at 2100 and see what it would require to get to 0 fossil fuel usage.

Assumption 5: With the third world now at 1st world standard of living assume a reduction to 6Billion people by 2100

Assumption 6: Another 10% efficiency gain is possible by 2100.

So to calculate the required clean power generation let's take the total power required in 2050 with 8.5billion and scale it down to 6billion and take another 10% off:

(17TW +3.6TW) (6B/8.5B)(.9)=

13.1TW Total clean generation in 2100

Now in 2050 we are already generating 11.75 TW cleanly so by 2100 we only have to generate another:

1.33TW

Population reduction means over 6TW of fossil fuel generation can be removed. Leaving only the 1.33TW to be covered by clean generation.

Next up how feasible is it to generate this energy cleanly.


SECTION 2:
Potential Power

For the purposes of this post I'm going to look at two of the most obvious clean options:

  • Nuclear Fission
  • Solar


We'll also assume that fossil fuels for transportation can be replaced by battery electric, fuels cell, or carbon neutral bio/synthetic fuels by 2100.

Nuclear - Pros & Cons:

Nuclear fission is clean from a greenhouse gas perspective as nothing is burned. It's also incredibly power dense compared to other common power sources:

  • Natural Uranium (.7%U235) in a LWR - 443,000MJ/KG
  • Reactor Grade Uranium (3.5%U235) in LWR - 3,456,000MJ/KG
  • Natural Uranium in a Breeder Reactor - 86,000,000MJ/KG
  • D-T Fusion - 576,000,000MJ/KG
  • Oil - 46.3MJ/KG
  • Coal - 32.5MJ/KG

Nuclear fission, depending on the process, releases 10,000 to 100,000 times more energy in a light water reactor than oil; 2 million times more in a breeder reactor.

In section one we calculated that by 2050 we would need 9.56TW of clean energy with an additional 1.33TW by 2100.

How much Uranium would that require?

In 2013 world wide nuclear power production was 364GW (link).

To generate that the industry used a block of Uranium 14.5m/side:



To generate all the power required in part one in 2050 we would need about 28 of those Uranium blocks per year.

By 2100 we would need about an additional 4 blocks for a total of 32 blocks of Uranium.

If instead of light water reactors, breeders were used, a single block could generate 5 times more power than is required in 2100.

For comparisons sake this the size block of oil produced in 2013:


So the pro's are it's entirely possible to generate the required amount of power needed with no more uranium mining required than we already do.

The cons are how many new reactors are needed and the risk from the waste. The use of breeders can significantly reduce that risk by continuing to "burn" the waste as fuel reducing the amount of waste and drastically shortening the storage requirements.

There are some great designs for small modular reactors in the 10MW-50MW size that could be good for developing countries. Designs would need to take proliferation into account.

(link)

Solar Pro's and Cons

Solar is another and complimentary option.

The Earth intercepts ~ 2x10^17W of solar power. This is about 20000 times more power than we need in 2100. Hypothetically it could supply all the power we would ever need.

Let's make some assumptions and see what would be a reasonable amount of solar power to generate from a low cost third world country solution.

Assumption 1: For developing countries assume fixed solar arrays that point south, in the Northern Hemisphere and north in the Southern Hemisphere. Tracking arrays are more efficient but can break down. Fixed arrays can just be set up and left.

Assumption 2: Let's assume a 10m^2 array per person, (roughly 10ft by 10ft).

Assumption 3: Per this site, which unfortunately has changed significantly since I started investigating this,(link) let's assume that the average yearly US solar insolation of ~5kwh/day for a fixed array pointed south at latitude is a good proxy for anywhere in the world.

Assumption 4: Assume the average efficiency of a mid-late 21st century solar array is ~ 25%. (The ISS arrays designed in the 80's are in the teens, stuff coming out the labs today are max at 40%).

kwh/person year = 5kwh/day x 365days x .25 = 456kwh/year

Or

.442TW per year

While that's a 50% increase above the baseline of 1000kwh/person year for most of the third world today it's only about 5% of the 9.56TW power we are looking for by 2050.

To completely replace the rest of the power we calculated for 2050 using the best solar arrays at 40% efficiency, dual axis sun tracking, and in the sunniest places around the word like the American Southwest (link), we get about

12kWH/m^2 per day x .4 x 365days

=1752 kWH/m^2 per year.

(9.56TW per year - .442TW per year) x (1 / 1752kWH/m^2 per year) =

46,000 km^2 worth of arrays.

Or

A square 213km on a side.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
I can't tell if your post is serious or not.

These things seem more like reactions to market conditions than they are proactions to climate change. The prices rose first, and then technology followed. We would probably all be using regular light bulbs if power were cheap. We would also be driving cars that weigh as much as pickup trucks.

The trick to this climate change situation would be slow but clearly defined changes. By year 2018, item ____ must be ____. By 2020, it must be ____. By 2025, it must be ____.
Look at the way we eliminated asbestos. We just said that new construction can't use it. We didn't mandate existing homes tear it out.
We can also look at things like building fire codes. Those change over a span of years, and with clearly defined schedules. Someone comes up with an idea of mandating emergency fire exits. From there, the law might give people 5 years to comply with this. After 5 years, any building not complying will be shut down until it is compliant.

I'm fine with improving legal requirements and paying for those requirements as long as it's done at a reasonable pace, and I think most people would agree with me on this.
 

Joepublic2

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2005
1,114
6
76
The only realistic (i.e. actually exists, not pie in the sky "50 years away" for the past 60 going on 70 years fusion etc.) energy generation technology capable of fully replacing coal AND oil/nat gas is nuclear fission. Remind me again which party has been adamant about killing nuclear power, even research reactors, to the point where in 2015 our best nuclear technology is tweaks on ancient 1950s designs?

https://nader.org/template.php?/archives/926-That-Clinches-It-The-Breeder-Reactor-is-Dead.html

Page Not Found
No page could be found at this address.

Well, looks like Nader tried to flush this down the memory hole. Let's try:

https://web.archive.org/web/2012020...-Clinches-It-The-Breeder-Reactor-is-Dead.html

Wednesday, November 2. 1983

Even its most ardent supporters, Senator Howard Baker (R - Tenn.) and Senator James McClure (R - Idaho) acknowledged after the vote that this properly embattled way to generate electricity will not be revived.

Even 1980s sodium cooled plutonium breeders would have been a huge cost improvement over the light and pressurized water reactors the world is using now, and would have given us a decades head start on LFTR R&D. Republicans are really johnny-come-lately when it comes to killing green energy. But hey, we got all those cool slogans from liberals like "you can't hug you children with nuclear arms" and they can bitch and point fingers about all the gigatons of C02 emmisions we've had over the past 60 years because they made building newer/better nuclear plants politically impossible.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
The only realistic (i.e. actually exists, not pie in the sky "50 years away" for the past 60 going on 70 years fusion etc.) energy generation technology capable of fully replacing coal AND oil/nat gas is nuclear fission. Remind me again which party has been adamant about killing nuclear power, even research reactors, to the point where in 2015 our best nuclear technology is tweaks on ancient 1950s designs?

https://nader.org/template.php?/archives/926-That-Clinches-It-The-Breeder-Reactor-is-Dead.html



Well, looks like Nader tried to flush this down the memory hole. Let's try:

https://web.archive.org/web/2012020...-Clinches-It-The-Breeder-Reactor-is-Dead.html



Even 1980s molten salt plutonium breeders would have been a huge cost improvement over the light and pressurized water reactors the world is using now, and would have given us a decades head start on LFTR R&D. Republicans are really johnny-come-lately when it comes to killing green energy. But hey, we got all those cool slogans from liberals like "you can't hug you children with nuclear arms" and they can bitch and point fingers about all the gigatons of C02 emmisions we've had over the past 50 years because they made building newer/better nuclear plants politically impossible.

I guess you missed the part where Obama signed off on new nuclear power plants.

Looks like your rant was for nothing.
 
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Joepublic2

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2005
1,114
6
76
I guess you missed the part where Obama signed off on new nuclear power plants.

Looks like you're rant was for nothing.

Looks like you're ignoring the past 60 years of history that brought us to this point, congrats.

Also, you should have used your. I can definitely see why you're having issues seeing my point if you haven't mastered English yet. I imagine your local community college offers remedial English classes.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
That's generally how the government accomplishes it's environmental goals. CAFE standards raise over a significant number of years and things like renewable portfolio standards have a goal set a number of years out that is achievable.

There's a big difference between how feasible it is to

1. Raise CAFE standards from 27.5 to 30.2 given 20 years of innovation since 1990 (when it was last raised from 26.5 MPG). And

2. Raise CAFE standards from 30.2 in 2011 to 60 in 2025.

One simply requires use of existing technology that's been developed since 1990 and marginal cost increases. The other is completely magical thinking and requires a complete paradigm shift in transportation and a reckless disregard for the automotive needs of American consumers. Need a minivan or SUV to haul your large family? Fuck you, the climate change brigade doesn't give a shit about what you want or need and you'll do what you're told and be happy about it.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
Looks like you're ignoring the past 60 years of history that brought us to this point, congrats.

Also, you should have used your. I can definitely see why you're having issues seeing my point if you haven't mastered English yet. I imagine your local community college offers remedial English classes.

Yeah thanks asshole for catching my autocorrect error!

Yeah I guess I did ignore the past 60 years while you ignored the past six!
Idiot!
 

Joepublic2

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2005
1,114
6
76
Yeah thanks asshole for catching my autocorrect error!

Yeah I guess I did ignore the past 60 years while you ignored the past six!
Idiot!

How many ancient 1950s tech reactors did Obama sign off on? Enough to offset 60 years of C02 emissions? Thanks for having the balls to admit that shitty liberal energy policies are responsible for 90% of the current problems with regards to C02 emissions. Has he allocated any kind of serious funding towards advancing nuclear fission technology?
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
How many ancient 1950s tech reactors did Obama sign off on? Enough to offset 60 years of C02 emissions? Thanks for having the balls to admit that shitty liberal energy policies are responsible for 90% of the current problems with regards to C02 emissions. Has he allocated any kind of serious funding towards advancing nuclear fission technology?

Wait so now the president is in charge of the budget? Wait, you just got done complaining about Democrats not doing anything and then I showed you that they are and now you are moving the goal posts to says dems aren't doing enough?

How about you figure out what your argument is so I don't have to chase you around while you backtrack like a little bitch?

Here are some more facts for your clueless ass:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ower-seen-as-big-winner-in-obama-s-power-plan

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...rove-loans-for-new-nuclear-power-plants.html#

http://www.politifact.com/florida/s...says-he-supported-first-nuclear-power-plant-/
 

Joepublic2

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2005
1,114
6
76
Wait so now the president is in charge of the budget? Wait, you just got done complaining about Democrats not doing anything and then I showed you that they are and now you are moving the goal posts to says dems aren't doing enough?

How about you figure out what your argument is so I don't have to chase you around while you backtrack like a little bitch?

Here are some more facts for your clueless ass:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ower-seen-as-big-winner-in-obama-s-power-plan

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...rove-loans-for-new-nuclear-power-plants.html#

http://www.politifact.com/florida/s...says-he-supported-first-nuclear-power-plant-/

You can't undo 60 years of bad policy with weak, pandering half-measures is what I'm saying. Take my dick out of your mouth for a second and use your words to tell me how building a half dozen new nuke plants (looks like 4 are being decommissioned so a net 2 plants) is making a real effort to change anything and not just politically expedient pandering.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
There's a big difference between how feasible it is to

1. Raise CAFE standards from 27.5 to 30.2 given 20 years of innovation since 1990 (when it was last raised from 26.5 MPG). And

2. Raise CAFE standards from 30.2 in 2011 to 60 in 2025.

One simply requires use of existing technology that's been developed since 1990 and marginal cost increases. The other is completely magical thinking and requires a complete paradigm shift in transportation and a reckless disregard for the automotive needs of American consumers. Need a minivan or SUV to haul your large family? Fuck you, the climate change brigade doesn't give a shit about what you want or need and you'll do what you're told and be happy about it.

CAFE standard is 54.5 by 2025, something that all the auto makers (except for VW heh) consider achievable with existing and near term technology improvements. This isn't magical thinking....that you are so insistent that it is reflects some deeper emotional problem you have with all of this instead of rational thought.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
You can't undo 60 years of bad policy with weak, pandering half-measures is what I'm saying. Take my dick out of your mouth for a second and use your words to tell me how building a half dozen new nuke plants (looks like 4 are being decommissioned so a net 2 plants) is making a real effort to change anything and not just politically expedient pandering.

Well pull your head out of your ass and look at what you actually said? Don't blame me because your partisan rant got in the way of your point (of which is no longer valid, dems aren't blocking anything).


Your backtracking is duly noted.
 

Joepublic2

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2005
1,114
6
76
Well pull your head out of your ass and look at what you actually said? Don't blame me because your partisan rant got in the way of your point (of which is no longer valid, dems aren't blocking anything).


Your backtracking is duly noted.

My point is invalid? You're going to build a time machine and rewrite the past 60 years of history? That would be pretty cool, I admit. You should work on that instead of fighting losing battles on internet forums. Again, for those with reading comprehension issues:

Remind me again which party has been adamant about killing nuclear power


 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
My point is invalid? You're going to build a time machine and rewrite the past 60 years of history? That would be pretty cool, I admit. You should work on that instead of fighting losing battles on internet forums.

You already have trouble expressing your opinion coherently and now reading comprehension seems to be an issue as well. Maybe you shouldn't stick your dick in random guys mouth on the Internet and maybe you wouldn't sound like an idiot.

But hey you "win" this "Internet battle", sport!
 

Joepublic2

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2005
1,114
6
76
You already have trouble expressing your opinion coherently and now reading comprehension seems to be an issue as well. Maybe you shouldn't stick your dick in random guys mouth on the Internet and maybe you wouldn't sound like an idiot.

But hey you "win" this "Internet battle", sport!

Hahaha, the money is on the table, bitch.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
Think of it as a tip. From my tip. You're good at it; have you considered a career in the fellatio arts?

No, but go ahead and tell me about a career you seem to know a lot about. Was it something your mom got you into? Or is it how you met your significant other?
 

Joepublic2

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2005
1,114
6
76
No, but go ahead and tell me about a career you seem to know a lot about. Was it something your mom got you into? Or is it how you met your significant other?

But seriously dude, smoke a J about it. Or you can vape if you're worried about the emissions.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
There's a big difference between how feasible it is to

1. Raise CAFE standards from 27.5 to 30.2 given 20 years of innovation since 1990 (when it was last raised from 26.5 MPG). And

2. Raise CAFE standards from 30.2 in 2011 to 60 in 2025.

One simply requires use of existing technology that's been developed since 1990 and marginal cost increases. The other is completely magical thinking and requires a complete paradigm shift in transportation and a reckless disregard for the automotive needs of American consumers. Need a minivan or SUV to haul your large family? Fuck you, the climate change brigade doesn't give a shit about what you want or need and you'll do what you're told and be happy about it.

There is going to be a paradigm shift in transportation from now to 2025, with self driving electric cars. I don't know about you, but a self driving electric car would meet my family's automotive needs far better than my current gas powered car that needs my undivided attention when operating.
 
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