If I think the minimum wage should be rasied $0.25/hr then I must think raising it $1,000,000,000/hr would be even better, right? Reductio ad absurdum is only valid when not misrepresented as a straw man. I never said there wasn't a cost to a graduated income tax system.
To be fair, I think the thing for Romney is that he really doesn't give a damn about most of those things he flip-flopped on. He sees himself as a management consultant. He cares about making the machine run better, not enforcing social mores. A much smarter tactic that could have beaten Obama in the election would be:
"Abortion? Gay rights? Obamacare? Immigration? I really don't give a damn about those things. In fact, as president, I will promise not to touch any of those things with a ten foot pole. We're in an economic crisis, and all anyone can seem to talk about is social issues. If you elect me, you're doing it for one purpose: to fix this economy. We've already wasted enough time on these side issues, don't make me waste any more. Now here's what I'll do, in fine detail..."
I'm not sure that this approach could have made it through the primary (and for that Republicans have no one to blame but themselves), but it would have done a lot to sway moderates. He also needed to do the italics, but was so afraid that his vision would prove unpopular that he refused. That is sad.
I can also be right, and Romney wrong, and still understand that he is a fucking slimeball of the highest order. I have no doubt he thinks he has good intentions. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say.My point wasn't to say you believed in the extreme. Quite the contrary, it was to point out that since you clearly don't, you are assigning absolute moral terms to an argument about a matter of degree. You can be right about this issue, and Romney wrong, and still understand that he is a well-intentioned, intelligent human being.
My point wasn't to say you believed in the extreme. Quite the contrary, it was to point out that since you clearly don't, you are assigning absolute moral terms to an argument about a matter of degree. You can be right about this issue, and Romney wrong, and still understand that he is a well-intentioned, intelligent human being.
crashtestdummy, it was a valiant effort but I think it's become pretty damn clear that some people just aren't wired for rational discussion when it comes to politics.
In looking at all of the responses in this thread, as well as others in the forum, everyone can easily come to the conclusion that even with winning an election the progs and the lefties are mean spirited with no recourse but to ad hominem attacks. Win or lose, their nature does not change.
Imagine the reaction should they have lost! We might have been looking at cities burning instead of the long slow pain of another four years of Obama and Reid's tax and spend.
I won't lie, watching PJABBER throw a temper tantrum is pretty satisfying.
More tears! I demand more!
You want mean spirited? How about this: GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU LYING PIECE OF SHIT!
You are an idiot and a parrot and the only people buying your shit are other parrots and other idiots!
Your dishonesty is unbecoming ... and quite transparent. You trolled; you got the reaction you hoped for. You're just one more of a million undistinguished Internet trolls. Congratulations!I don't know why, but I really get a kick out of reading meltdowns like this that are brought about by nothing more than the poster staring at her own navel.
Pics? :awe:
I don't know why, but I really get a kick out of reading meltdowns like this that are brought about by nothing more than the poster staring at her own navel.
Pics? :awe:
crashtestdummy, it was a valiant effort but I think it's become pretty damn clear that some people just aren't wired for rational discussion when it comes to politics.
I don't know why, but I really get a kick out of reading meltdowns like this that are brought about by nothing more than the poster staring at her own navel.
Pics? :awe:
I would challenge that. I think quite the contrary, in general the more successful you are, the more you've benefited from taxpayer-funded infrastructure and services. Consider roads, for example. If you are an ordinary worker, roads enable you to get back and forth to work. If you are a business owner, however, not only do they let you get to work, they enable your employees to get to work and your customers to get to wherever your products are offered. They allow your suppliers to deliver materials, and your shipping department to get products to market. The value a business owner gets from roads is compounded many times over.Income taxation, to a limited extent, reduces the benefit of success in capitalism. No matter what you plan on doing with the money, there's almost no way that someone in a higher bracket will get back the money that they pay into taxes.
I accept your argument about sincere disagreement, but that doesn't change that their motives are simple greed. That's not necessarily evil; we're all motivated by self interest to some extent. But society has no obligation to indulge greed, and those who have benefited so greatly from our extraordinary physical, financial, and educational infrastructure need to recognize they "didn't build that" all by themselves. Whether they want to acknowledge it or not, their great success was built in significant part due to the opportunities fostered by America's amazing system. That costs money, there are bills to pay, and it's not unreasonable for those who've built the greatest success to pay proportionately more for the privilege of building in our amazing system.[ ... ]
If you're willing to admit that the above would be a bad idea, then your argument with the Romneys of the world is simply over where that cut off between useful and detrimental taxation lies. Can you then really claim that it is so unreasonable that someone might genuinely think the dividing line is somewhere different than where you place it?
I would challenge that. I think quite the contrary, in general the more successful you are, the more you've benefited from taxpayer-funded infrastructure and services. Consider roads, for example. If you are an ordinary worker, roads enable you to get back and forth to work. If you are a business owner, however, not only do they let you get to work, they enable your employees to get to work and your customers to get to wherever your products are offered. They allow your suppliers to deliver materials, and your shipping department to get products to market. The value a business owner gets from roads is compounded many times over.
The same applies to education, public safety, health services, utilities, etc. While individual workers get personal benefit from these services, business owners get compounded benefits. Your education qualifies you personally for a better job. But a good educational system ensures businesses have a steady supply of educated workers, thus helping them be profitable in the first place.
This is doubly true for our financial system, the courts, and the military. The average worker has modest need for a financial system, little more than basic banking. Businesses need a robust and diversified financial system (and of course that's a huge business in and of itself, creating amazing fortunes for a fortunate few). The court system is of only minor interest to most workers. Serving as a juror is likely the most common exposure to our courts for a good 95% of Americans. Businesses, in contrast, are relatively heavy users of our courts.
And then there's the military. While the military certainly provides some benefit to all Americans, it's really America's elite who gain the greatest benefit by far. Not only do they have the most to lose, but America's military is far more focused on protecting our business interests abroad than it is defending our homeland.
Finally, there's welfare. Ignoring corporate welfare, which directly benefits the businesses, there are various forms of welfare for individuals. Yes, they do directly benefit those individuals, at the expense of taxpayers. There is also an overall societal benefit, however, in providing a minimal standard of living to avoid widespread theft and civil unrest. Even more, for certain businesses like Wal-Mart, our welfare programs subsidize employers whose employees are so poorly paid they qualify. This puts money into the pockets of billionaires like the Walton heirs. They get a quite handsome return on their tax dollars.
I accept your argument about sincere disagreement, but that doesn't change that their motives are simple greed. That's not necessarily evil; we're all motivated by self interest to some extent. But society has no obligation to indulge greed, and those who have benefited so greatly from our extraordinary physical, financial, and educational infrastructure need to recognize they "didn't build that" all by themselves. Whether they want to acknowledge it or not, their great success was built in significant part due to the opportunities fostered by America's amazing system. That costs money, there are bills to pay, and it's not unreasonable for those who've built the greatest success to pay proportionately more for the privilege of building in our amazing system.
IMO, of course.
I would challenge that. I think quite the contrary, in general the more successful you are, the more you've benefited from taxpayer-funded infrastructure and services. Consider roads, for example. If you are an ordinary worker, roads enable you to get back and forth to work. If you are a business owner, however, not only do they let you get to work, they enable your employees to get to work and your customers to get to wherever your products are offered. They allow your suppliers to deliver materials, and your shipping department to get products to market. The value a business owner gets from roads is compounded many times over.
The same applies to education, public safety, health services, utilities, etc. While individual workers get personal benefit from these services, business owners get compounded benefits. Your education qualifies you personally for a better job. But a good educational system ensures businesses have a steady supply of educated workers, thus helping them be profitable in the first place.
This is doubly true for our financial system, the courts, and the military. The average worker has modest need for a financial system, little more than basic banking. Businesses need a robust and diversified financial system (and of course that's a huge business in and of itself, creating amazing fortunes for a fortunate few). The court system is of only minor interest to most workers. Serving as a juror is likely the most common exposure to our courts for a good 95% of Americans. Businesses, in contrast, are relatively heavy users of our courts.
And then there's the military. While the military certainly provides some benefit to all Americans, it's really America's elite who gain the greatest benefit by far. Not only do they have the most to lose, but America's military is far more focused on protecting our business interests abroad than it is defending our homeland.
Finally, there's welfare. Ignoring corporate welfare, which directly benefits the businesses, there are various forms of welfare for individuals. Yes, they do directly benefit those individuals, at the expense of taxpayers. There is also an overall societal benefit, however, in providing a minimal standard of living to avoid widespread theft and civil unrest. Even more, for certain businesses like Wal-Mart, our welfare programs subsidize employers whose employees are so poorly paid they qualify. This puts money into the pockets of billionaires like the Walton heirs. They get a quite handsome return on their tax dollars.
I accept your argument about sincere disagreement, but that doesn't change that their motives are simple greed. That's not necessarily evil; we're all motivated by self interest to some extent. But society has no obligation to indulge greed, and those who have benefited so greatly from our extraordinary physical, financial, and educational infrastructure need to recognize they "didn't build that" all by themselves. Whether they want to acknowledge it or not, their great success was built in significant part due to the opportunities fostered by America's amazing system. That costs money, there are bills to pay, and it's not unreasonable for those who've built the greatest success to pay proportionately more for the privilege of building in our amazing system.
IMO, of course.
It takes two. Where are your contributions to rational discussion? If you feel (as I do) that P&N needs more thoughtful, constructive discussion, lead by example.crashtestdummy, it was a valiant effort but I think it's become pretty damn clear that some people just aren't wired for rational discussion when it comes to politics.
I would challenge that. I think quite the contrary, in general the more successful you are, the more you've benefited from taxpayer-funded infrastructure and services. Consider roads, for example. If you are an ordinary worker, roads enable you to get back and forth to work. If you are a business owner, however, not only do they let you get to work, they enable your employees to get to work and your customers to get to wherever your products are offered. They allow your suppliers to deliver materials, and your shipping department to get products to market. The value a business owner gets from roads is compounded many times over.
The same applies to education, public safety, health services, utilities, etc. While individual workers get personal benefit from these services, business owners get compounded benefits. Your education qualifies you personally for a better job. But a good educational system ensures businesses have a steady supply of educated workers, thus helping them be profitable in the first place.
This is doubly true for our financial system, the courts, and the military. The average worker has modest need for a financial system, little more than basic banking. Businesses need a robust and diversified financial system (and of course that's a huge business in and of itself, creating amazing fortunes for a fortunate few). The court system is of only minor interest to most workers. Serving as a juror is likely the most common exposure to our courts for a good 95% of Americans. Businesses, in contrast, are relatively heavy users of our courts.
And then there's the military. While the military certainly provides some benefit to all Americans, it's really America's elite who gain the greatest benefit by far. Not only do they have the most to lose, but America's military is far more focused on protecting our business interests abroad than it is defending our homeland.
Finally, there's welfare. Ignoring corporate welfare, which directly benefits the businesses, there are various forms of welfare for individuals. Yes, they do directly benefit those individuals, at the expense of taxpayers. There is also an overall societal benefit, however, in providing a minimal standard of living to avoid widespread theft and civil unrest. Even more, for certain businesses like Wal-Mart, our welfare programs subsidize employers whose employees are so poorly paid they qualify. This puts money into the pockets of billionaires like the Walton heirs. They get a quite handsome return on their tax dollars.
I accept your argument about sincere disagreement, but that doesn't change that their motives are simple greed. That's not necessarily evil; we're all motivated by self interest to some extent. But society has no obligation to indulge greed, and those who have benefited so greatly from our extraordinary physical, financial, and educational infrastructure need to recognize they "didn't build that" all by themselves. Whether they want to acknowledge it or not, their great success was built in significant part due to the opportunities fostered by America's amazing system. That costs money, there are bills to pay, and it's not unreasonable for those who've built the greatest success to pay proportionately more for the privilege of building in our amazing system.
IMO, of course.
I know my posts are callous. I know that may be a turnoff to many but I am done sugar coating my message to Republicans.You're preaching to the choir on the effectiveness of government programs. It's a much harder case to make with empirical evidence that the wealthy come out ahead with added social programs, but I would rather contend that they get hurt far less than they claim to simply because, as you eloquently point out, they do benefit in many ways form those programs they fund.
I gave a very shortened description of graduated taxation because that discussion would only detract from my main point.
Again, preaching to the choir. One thing I remember earlier in the campaign was how baffled Romney seemed that people were put off by his references to wealth (the car elevator, the many houses, not being a fan of NASCAR but "knowing a few owners", Rafalca, etc.). For him, he had succeeded in capitalism, and he felt that his success should be celebrated and be one of his qualifying traits to help bring the same prosperity to everyone else. He was a capitalist evangelist, who because of what it had accomplished for him, felt it could do the same for everyone else.
I wasn't saying that we ever have to agree that the other side is correct, but rather describing my displeasure at this rising sentiment that we can't be friends or even civil with those who disagree with us in politics.
I was talking to a friend of a friend a few months ago, and she was complaining about how bigoted conservatives were (her opinion, not mine), and that bringing home the wrong person to a conservative parent could get you disowned. I asked her how she would feel if her son brought home a conservative girlfriend. She hesitated, realizing her hypocrisy, but still said that she would discourage him staying with her. What a weird world we live in.
I know my posts are callous. I know that may be a turnoff to many but I am done sugar coating my message to Republicans.
Rational discussion does not work with the Republican mindset. It is a waste of time. They know what they know and the second you shine a light on their misinformation they ignore it and change the subject. It happens hundreds of times every day right here in this forum. Nobody will ever be able to change a Republican's mind about anything once they have made up their mind. Only they will be able to open their minds back up and that does not happen often enough.
Lol says the guy that makes a thread apologizing but does nothing of the sort!
You want mean spirited? How about this: GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU LYING PIECE OF SHIT!
You are an idiot and a parrot and the only people buying your shit are other parrots and other idiots!