Connecticut School shooting!

[CptObvious]

Saw this about guns per capita vs. homicides by firearms around the world:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...homicides-compare-with-the-rest-of-the-world/

Two things: More guns doesn't necessarily correlate with more gun deaths. The U.S. is around the middle of the pack when it comes to gun deaths, but high compared to other first-world nations.

From my experience living abroad for several years and talking with Asians and Europeans, they cannot understand America's fascination with guns. I am generalizing here, but this is what I believe are the basic differences between we Americans and Asians/Europeans (who live in their respective countries, not here) that I think lead to more incidents like this here:

-The young people in Asia and Europe are more collectivist and try to belong in a group whereas Americans are more individualistic. I am talking as a whole. You are likely to have more social acquaintances/friends in Asia or Europe, whereas in America there are significantly more people who spend most of their life alone.

-Young males around the world listen to angry music, watch violent movies and play violent video games, and hate their parents and the world. However, a larger portion of American males never grew out of this phase. Maybe it's due to the first reason of living most of your life alone, but there isn't as much social pressure to grow up in America, take responsibility for your life and become a productive member of society.

-Owning guns is seen as a religious God-given right in this country and part of one's identity, while people in other first-world countries don't get quite as attached to guns, even if they're allowed to own them.

 

[raildogg]

Well I see where you are going with this and yes I agree that my rights as an American don't necessarily equate to the rights of any other country. I've been to enough parts of the world to understand this concept.

Let's just put it this way: Most Americans would be humbled and very happy to have what they are lucky enough to be born into if they saw what else was going on in the world outside of their borders.

I agree with you. People are born into a society where they are taken care of if they are unemployed or too sick, not to mention more wealth and better opportunities. This can cause some to work harder and grow or it can cause complacency and cause the person to greatly reduce their capabilities. In many parts of the world, if you do not struggle very hard you do not make it. Thanks for your post.

 

[zod96]

Here are a few facts.

1. Countries that have strict Gun laws have 90% less violent crimes then countries
that don't like the USA.

2. The 2nd Amendment was written some 200 years ago when the British were still around.

Its time for the 2nd Amendment to go away. Times change. I think the Constitution also mentions something about the right to own slaves etc. That has changed why can't we change these dam gun laws. People will say its not law abiding citizens that are breaking the law its criminals. Well you know what it would still be a dam good start. Their is a reason most countries think the USA is the most violent country in the world. I wish the Congress would get their act together and ban all guns. I can say without a doubt I'm sure Obama would love to do that and I would vote for that in a second. This country is so fracked up its not even funny anymore....

End Rant...

 

[UberNeuman]

Heartbreaking. Really.

Just nothing much to say on this rotten chain of events....

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Here are a few facts.

1. Countries that have strict Gun laws have 90% less violent crimes then countries
that don't like the USA.

2. The 2nd Amendment was written some 200 years ago when the British were still around.

Its time for the 2nd Amendment to go away. Times change. I think the Constitution also mentions something about the right to own slaves etc. That has changed why can't we change these dam gun laws. People will say its not law abiding citizens that are breaking the law its criminals. Well you know what it would still be a dam good start. Their is a reason most countries think the USA is the most violent country in the world. I wish the Congress would get their act together and ban all guns. I can say without a doubt I'm sure Obama would love to do that and I would vote for that in a second. This country is so fracked up its not even funny anymore....

End Rant...

I don't think think you provided a single correct fact, other than your approximation of when the Bill of Rights was written. The UK has a much higher rate of violent crime.

 

[poohbear]

Stop searching for solutions and answers for this kind of tragedy. There aren't any. Not gun control, nor mental health resources, nor school security. Nothing will stop it from occurring here and there. We cannot stop pathological narcissism from emerging as a character trait in some individuals because it is an extension of ordinary human psychology.

Of all the mass murders we've had in recent years, I have to admit this one really got to me.

Thats such a fatalist attitude & doesnt get us anywhere in life. The USA has more gun rampages than any country in the world, its the only developed country that has lax gun laws because its a massive business just like tobacco was before they clamped down on that despite the billions tobacco companies paid trying to stop their marginilazation as a legitimate business. Guns should ONLY be for police & military, i dont even support hunters getting them cause its 2012 & they can just go down to the supermarket to get their food like the rest of us. This 18th century idea of "we need it incase of a tyrannical government" is so absurd and shocking to hear from grown adults. They had muskets back then! Modern governments have fighter jets, aircraft carriers, tanks, artillery, HMGs, etc, what on EARTH is ur assault rifle gonna do against a tyrannical government with those weapons @ their disposal?

 

[zod96]

Let me guess gun owner? I like this statement it could not be more true....

Guns should ONLY be for police & military, i dont even support hunters getting them cause its 2012 & they can just go down to the supermarket to get their food like the rest of us. This 18th century idea of "we need it incase of a tyrannical government" is so absurd and shocking to hear from grown adults. They had muskets back then! Modern governments have fighter jets, aircraft carriers, tanks, artillery, HMGs, etc, what on EARTH is ur assault rifle gonna do against a tyrannical government with those weapons @ their disposal?
__________________

 

[Munky]

In The United Kingdom there are 0.22 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants; for comparison, the figure for the United States was 3.0, and for Germany 0.2

That's well over ten times more in the US. And it doesn't include accidental shootings.

Unless you can show me a country that had 0 as in ZERO gun homicides, then you can STFU about gun laws, because people died in those countries with or without gun control laws. Proof that idiot liberals know nothing about criminals or the criminal mindset.

 

[Angry Irishman]

Here are a few facts.

1. Countries that have strict Gun laws have 90% less violent crimes then countries
that don't like the USA.

2. The 2nd Amendment was written some 200 years ago when the British were still around.

Its time for the 2nd Amendment to go away. Times change. I think the Constitution also mentions something about the right to own slaves etc. That has changed why can't we change these dam gun laws. People will say its not law abiding citizens that are breaking the law its criminals. Well you know what it would still be a dam good start. Their is a reason most countries think the USA is the most violent country in the world. I wish the Congress would get their act together and ban all guns. I can say without a doubt I'm sure Obama would love to do that and I would vote for that in a second. This country is so fracked up its not even funny anymore....

End Rant...

I won't even respond other than go back and read the counter arguments. If Congress is going to change the second amendment of the Constitution than do it. I'm willing to bet the majority of Americans would not agree.

 

[Angry Irishman]

Let me guess gun owner? I like this statement it could not be more true....

Guns should ONLY be for police & military, i dont even support hunters getting them cause its 2012 & they can just go down to the supermarket to get their food like the rest of us. This 18th century idea of "we need it incase of a tyrannical government" is so absurd and shocking to hear from grown adults. They had muskets back then! Modern governments have fighter jets, aircraft carriers, tanks, artillery, HMGs, etc, what on EARTH is ur assault rifle gonna do against a tyrannical government with those weapons @ their disposal?
__________________

So we should just roll over....good idea. I'm not typing it all out again.

 

[zod96]

Ha I am willing to bet the majority would in a heart beat...

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Let me guess gun owner? I like this statement it could not be more true....

Guns should ONLY be for police & military, i dont even support hunters getting them cause its 2012 & they can just go down to the supermarket to get their food like the rest of us. This 18th century idea of "we need it incase of a tyrannical government" is so absurd and shocking to hear from grown adults. They had muskets back then! Modern governments have fighter jets, aircraft carriers, tanks, artillery, HMGs, etc, what on EARTH is ur assault rifle gonna do against a tyrannical government with those weapons @ their disposal?
__________________

Was that supposed to be a reply to me?

 

[Angry Irishman]

Ha I am willing to bet the majority would in a heart beat...

I doubt it...this doesn't look like a ban would be in order from Joe American.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national...ore-or-less-gun-control-both-actually/266312/

 

[zod96]

Yes. It is so easy to get a gun here. I could walk out my door and have an ak-47 in less than a half hour. That is pretty fracked up. I have friend who lives in Canada, he called me today after the shooting and said that is why Canada has gun laws all they have to do is turn on the tv every night and see what a great job guns do here in the USA...repeal the 2nd amendment

 

[woolfe9999]

Thats such a fatalist attitude & doesnt get us anywhere in life. The USA has more gun rampages than any country in the world, its the only developed country that has lax gun laws because its a massive business just like tobacco was before they clamped down on that despite the billions tobacco companies paid trying to stop their marginilazation as a legitimate business. Guns should ONLY be for police & military, i dont even support hunters getting them cause its 2012 & they can just go down to the supermarket to get their food like the rest of us. This 18th century idea of "we need it incase of a tyrannical government" is so absurd and shocking to hear from grown adults. They had muskets back then! Modern governments have fighter jets, aircraft carriers, tanks, artillery, HMGs, etc, what on EARTH is ur assault rifle gonna do against a tyrannical government with those weapons @ their disposal?

It isn't fatalism, though I can understand why you think of it that way. It's that the changes required to substantially reduce the likelihood of these kinds of events would either 1) not work, or 2) might work but are unacceptable for other reasons.

It's too late for gun control in this country. There are hundreds of millions of guns out there among citizens. What would you have us do? The ATF goes out and collects all of them? How many deaths do you think would result from that process alone, which BTW wouldn't succeed in getting but a fraction of them?

The same applies with other "solutions." Perhaps if we censor all violence out of TV, movies and video games, that would have some effect in reducing it. It isn't, however, acceptable for reasons too numerous to bother articulating here.

We have more violence here than some other first world countries for cultural reasons. If you doubt it's cultural, you should think about Canada where they really aren't that much more restrictive than we are here but gun violence is way lower there.

We aren't going to change the culture here without heavy handed social engineering which goes against the grain of everything this country stands for. Maybe the culture will change for better or worse over the long haul, but it isn't something we can force in the short term in any way that is either practical or acceptable.

 

[zod96]

Or lets make it real simple. If guns were banned today killings would not have happened period. Doesn't get any better than that...

 

[Mai72]

You have hundreds if not thousands of pieces of artillery pointed at you from the north that can hit most of South Korea, what safety do you really have?

Anything that has to do with the North is mostly reported by Western media. South Koreans are aware of what North Korea can do militarily, but it's really not an issue and you hardly hear it ever mentioned. South Korea has been able to ignore the North.

I am talking about my day to day interactions with South Koreans. I can walk anywhere and I can feel safe. I took a walk at 3 am the other day and I had zero worries. It's a great feeling.

 

[shira]

This...our society has placed such a stigma on mental illness that nobody seeks help anymore and they eventually do sick shit like this

Why are you assuming that killings are being committed by people with mental illness who aren't being treated because of some sort of social stigma? You've made a wild assumption without presenting any evidence whatsoever.

My own assumption is that almost all people who commit mass shootings are mentally ill. But anything beyond that is just baseless speculation.

 

[Angry Irishman]

Yes. It is so easy to get a gun here. I could walk out my door and have an ak-47 in less than a half hour. That is pretty fracked up. I have friend who lives in Canada, he called me today after the shooting and said that is why Canada has gun laws all they have to do is turn on the tv every night and see what a great job guns do here in the USA...repeal the 2nd amendment

Start voting or run for Congress to affect the change to the Constitution. Again, Im not going back to type why guns aren't the problem here.

 

[Angry Irishman]

Or lets make it real simple. If guns were banned today killings would not have happened period. Doesn't get any better than that...

Well really it's not the simple at all....not even remotely.

 

[SheHateMe]

LOL Guns don't kill people!

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I had an interesting discussion this evening with my mom (a retired judge and one of the finest, smartest people I have ever met). We both felt instinctively that the one good thing that might flow from a case like this is at least a discussion of reforming some of our mental health laws to facilitate commitment of people who are floridly mentally ill and might pose a danger to others. Obviously this is something that would require judicial scrutiny, but it's all too common that families find that a loved one is decompensating and becoming scarier and crazier, but have no recourse. Unfortunately I have personal and professional experience with what can ensue when this is not addressed.

I have no problem with at least discussing gun control, but ultimately I don't think that is the right fix. First, we have a second amendment, and second, even if we banned all guns today and stopped production, there are still hundreds of millions of guns out there in the wild, and making them illegal would just funnel them into the hands of criminals exclusively. To me this is not the right approach.

As for this thread, I am disappointed, and in some cases even horrified, by the response of this forum's members to this tragedy. Many members view this as an opportunity to get cheap political points, and others as a reason to push bizarre and nonsensical conspiracy theories. In both cases I view that as exploitative and distasteful. As for this forum generally, I am disappointed that some people can't set aside their usual bickering and obsessiveness about their favored issues to respect the gravity of this awful, awful day.

I will say it again: may God bless the souls of those poor kids and their families. May all those touched by this tragedy find peace and comfort sooner rather than later.

 

[emperus]

Saw this about guns per capita vs. homicides by firearms around the world:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...homicides-compare-with-the-rest-of-the-world/

Two things: More guns doesn't necessarily correlate with more gun deaths. The U.S. is around the middle of the pack when it comes to gun deaths, but high compared to other first-world nations.

From my experience living abroad for several years and talking with Asians and Europeans, they cannot understand America's fascination with guns. I am generalizing here, but this is what I believe are the basic differences between we Americans and Asians/Europeans (who live in their respective countries, not here) that I think lead to more incidents like this here:

-The young people in Asia and Europe are more collectivist and try to belong in a group whereas Americans are more individualistic. I am talking as a whole. You are likely to have more social acquaintances/friends in Asia or Europe, whereas in America there are significantly more people who spend most of their life alone.

-Young males around the world listen to angry music, watch violent movies and play violent video games, and hate their parents and the world. However, a larger portion of American males never grew out of this phase. Maybe it's due to the first reason of living most of your life alone, but there isn't as much social pressure to grow up in America, take responsibility for your life and become a productive member of society.

-Owning guns is seen as a religious God-given right in this country and part of one's identity, while people in other first-world countries don't get quite as attached to guns, even if they're allowed to own them.

I saw that article. It's stupid. You're comparing the US to places in S America where they have cartel wars. Are you serious. The correct comparison is US amongst other developed countries. And we are near the top if not at the top.

 

[Zorkorist]

Did you tell her we don't know the guy was crazy?

Did you tell her "The state should iunstitutionalize more people?

Did you tell her, that in General, kids go to school, just fine.

-John

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I saw that article. It's stupid. You're comparing the US to places in S America where they have cartel wars. Are you serious. The correct comparison is US amongst other developed countries. And we are near the top if not at the top.

You mean the US where we border the countries that have cartel wars, have a war on drugs, and a lot of gang-related violence ourselves.