Connecticut School shooting!

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Geosurface

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2012
5,776
4
0
Are you giving "power to criminals" by locking your doors at night when they threaten to break in?

Yes. But each of us has to make the decision as to whether our community is the type where we feel like this is a wise move, and whether that compromise of our freedom is warranted by the perceived benefit of locking the door.

Maybe we can stop of this before it happens.

No, we really can't. We can sure destroy personal liberties in the attempt, though.

Much like locking your door at night, it's more to make you feel like you did something... you can implement all the laws and regulations you want, but in the end a dedicated individual will kill masses if they are intent on doing it.

And someone who is prowling around your house with the intention of getting inside, probably took the doors being locked into account and is prepared to handle that minor inconvenience.

Are there mass killers who would be dissuaded by some additional laws? Sure. Are there burglars who only go into houses that are unlocked? Yep. Still, it's a cost benefit equation.

Locking your doors doesn't impact your own freedom of movement much, you just have to remember a key and most of us are comfortable with that bargain. It has enough benefit to be worth it to most of us.

The kind of far-reaching trade offs and inconveniences to millions required to stop these mass killings isn't worth it.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Yes. But each of us has to make the decision as to whether our community is the type where we feel like this is a wise move, and whether that compromise of our freedom is warranted by the perceived benefit of locking the door.



No, we really can't. We can sure destroy personal liberties in the attempt, though.

Much like locking your door at night, it's more to make you feel like you did something... you can implement all the laws and regulations you want, but in the end a dedicated individual will kill masses if they are intent on doing it.

And someone who is prowling around your house with the intention of getting inside, probably took the doors being locked into account and is prepared to handle that minor inconvenience.

Are there mass killers who would be dissuaded by some additional laws? Sure. Are there burglars who only go into houses that are unlocked? Yep. Still, it's a cost benefit equation.

Locking your doors doesn't impact your own freedom of movement much, you just have to remember a key and most of us are comfortable with that bargain. It has enough benefit to be worth it to most of us.

The kind of far-reaching trade offs and inconveniences to millions required to stop these mass killings isn't worth it.

I think trade offs and Inconveniences to stop mass killings are worth it.

I don't know what the solutions are or should be, I think one issue is we can't agree to address the problem.

Doing nothing and just accepting it as the price we pay, is not acceptable to me.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,345
2
81
I think trade offs and Inconveniences to stop mass killings are worth it.

I don't know what the solutions are or should be, I think one issue is we can't agree to address the problem.

Doing nothing and just accepting it as the price we pay, is not acceptable to me.

You would trade freedoms wholesale, collapse an entire industry, put people out of work, and deprive a great number of individuals a sense of security, just because you think (that is, there is no guarantee it'll do anything) it might reduce gun crime by a negligible fraction?

I'm glad you are not on Congress.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,135
2,445
126
FYI this is a hoax and not something Morgan Freeman said (moreover, while I enjoy Morgan Freeman as an actor, his off-screen life is notable mostly for rumors that he had an affair with his step-granddaughter - I'm not sure why his opinion on matters political would be anything of particular note).

"Don't re-post celebrity quotes from the Internet without fact checking them first, even if they look like they come from a cool sounding black guy"

- James Earl Jones
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
You would trade freedoms wholesale, collapse an entire industry, put people out of work, and deprive a great number of individuals a sense of security, just because you think (that is, there is no guarantee it'll do anything) it might reduce gun crime by a negligible fraction?

I'm glad you are not on Congress.

Tradeoffs and inconvenience, like I said I don't know what the solutions are but doing nothing is not acceptable.

Absent of effective alternatives I Do support more gun control.

So if you want to keep or expand gun rights start coming up with ways to solve the problem. Because too bad nothing we can do about it is no longer acceptable.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
You would trade freedoms wholesale, collapse an entire industry, put people out of work, and deprive a great number of individuals a sense of security, just because you think (that is, there is no guarantee it'll do anything) it might reduce gun crime by a negligible fraction?

I'm glad you are not on Congress.

Why do you guys resort to idiotic and absurb false comparisons? No one is asking you to go to an extreme to address a growing issue.

You guys kill me... not willing to sacrifice one single thing for the benefit of everyone. Boy, people are really selfish these days....
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,345
2
81
Why do you guys resort to idiotic and absurb false comparisons? No one is asking you to go to an extreme to address a growing issue.

You guys kill me... not willing to sacrifice one single thing for the benefit of everyone. Boy, people are really selfish these days....

What? In what way is my comparison false?

Historically, whether it be something like an "assault weapons ban" or a handgun ban in metropolitan areas, increased gun control has not been effective in reducing gun crime rate. So what is meant by everyone's benefit? Your perceived benefit, just because of your personal opinion on guns?

If it has historically been ineffective, why do you keep focusing on this issue? As opposed to trying to improve, I don't know, mental healthcare? Why do you keep attacking this amendment?
 
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nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Tradeoffs and inconvenience, like I said I don't know what the solutions are but doing nothing is not acceptable.

Absent of effective alternatives I Do support more gun control.

So if you want to keep or expand gun rights start coming up with ways to solve the problem. Because too bad nothing we can do about it is no longer acceptable.

So basically you want to do something. Even though that something has not done anything to help in the past.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
What?

Historically, whether it be something like an "assault weapons ban" or a handgun ban in metropolitan areas, increased gun control has not been effective in reducing gun crime rate.

If it has historically been ineffective, why do you keep focusing on this issue? As opposed to trying to improve, I don't know, mental healthcare?

I didn't propose a "weapons ban". However, nutbags need both a fried brain and a gun, so both need some adjustments without including an extreme weapons ban.

Please, PLEASE don't pull a "car" or "knife" analogy because that isn't the issue -- those are not weapons designed to kill and maime.

Also, doing nothing isn't addressing the issue, either.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,345
2
81
I didn't propose a "weapons ban". However, nutbags need both a fried brain and a gun, so both need some adjustments without including an extreme weapons ban.

Please, PLEASE don't pull a "car" or "knife" analogy because that isn't the issue -- those are not weapons designed to kill and maime.

Also, doing nothing isn't addressing the issue, either.

So which issue are you talking about? The number of deaths due to gun related crime in this country, or the fact that CNN's reporting on a particular gun-related tragedy is making you feel bad?

Because if it's the former, well, the rate has been steadily decreasing since the mid 90s.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
So basically you want to do something. Even though that something has not done anything to help in the past.

I don't think all types of gun violence is the same. Gang bangers killing each other and rampage shootings are only similar in the tools used to kill.

Like I said before I accept that with gun ownership there has to be some acceptance of gun related crime.

I think it's possible and imperative we do something to reduce rampage killings.

Sure more gun control may not impact overall gun violence statistics much, but if it reduced rampage killings i'd be all for it.

If that's not the right solution I can accept it, then start coming up with better ones. But no solution is not acceptable.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
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"Don't re-post celebrity quotes from the Internet without fact checking them first, even if they look like they come from a cool sounding black guy"

- James Earl Jones

"The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that it's difficult to determine whether or not they are genuine." --Abraham Lincoln
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,345
2
81
Sure more gun control may not impact overall gun violence statistics much, but if it reduced rampage killings i'd be all for it.

If that's not the right solution I can accept it, then start coming up with better ones. But no solution is not acceptable.

Why do you think rampage killings are a major issue that deserves nationwide attention? Because it's been on the news a lot?
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
So which issue are you talking about? The number of deaths due to gun related crime in this country, or the fact that CNN's reporting on a particular gun-related tragedy is making you feel bad?

Because if it's the former, well, the rate has been steadily decreasing since the mid 90s.

The issue of access to dangerous weapons combined with who's accessing them (legally), such as doing more than a simple background check, which addresses availibily and mental health.

By tightening requirements, you can control who gets them and how easy it is in one swoop.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
66
91
Why do you think rampage killings are a major issue that deserves nationwide attention? Because it's been on the news a lot?

Just to be clear, are you saying that the murder of 20 children in a single school, plus 6 school employees, is not "a major issue that deserves nationwide attention"?
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,345
2
81
The issue of access to dangerous weapons combined with who's accessing them (legally), such as doing more than a simple background check, which addresses availibily and mental health.

By tightening requirements, you can control who gets them and how easy it is in one swoop.

You believe this can practically be accomplished? With the current state of our national healthcare system?

If this person was any indication, the laws were already in place that prevented the man in CT from legally acquiring weapons. He willfully broke laws already in place and stole the firearms he used to commit those murders.

At some point, don't you think the solution stops becoming more laws, more regulations?
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
I think trade offs and Inconveniences to stop mass killings are worth it.

I don't know what the solutions are or should be, I think one issue is we can't agree to address the problem.

Doing nothing and just accepting it as the price we pay, is not acceptable to me.


If said sacrifices can actually provide a viable net benefit, so am I. Being a bit uncomfortable for the sake of relative peace is worth the trade-off.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
62
91
The issue of access to dangerous weapons combined with who's accessing them (legally), such as doing more than a simple background check, which addresses availibily and mental health.

By tightening requirements, you can control who gets them and how easy it is in one swoop.

I'm OK with tightening, but the danger is that most people making tighter laws are clueless or build in extra measures on purpose to make things overly complicated for law abiding owners.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
You believe this can practically be accomplished? With the current state of our national healthcare system?

If this person was any indication, the laws were already in place that prevented the man in CT from legally acquiring weapons. He willfully broke laws already in place and stole the firearms he used to commit those murders.

At some point, don't you think the solution stops becoming more laws, more regulations?

That's why I said "legal". It's really hard, if not impossible, to prevent a determined mass-killer from obtaining weapons.

More regulations will improve national healthcare system. More laws/regulations aren't always a bad thing. It helps with Wall Street!
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
Just to be clear, are you saying that the murder of 20 children in a single school, plus 6 school employees, is not "a major issue that deserves nationwide attention"?

Yes. That's what hes saying and thats what others in the Gun crowd on ATOT have been saying. One person even went so far as to say that these kids "didnt matter" because more people die from Heart Disease and Cancer everyday and that these children only make up .5% of deaths each year..therefore, they really don't matter in the grand scheme of things.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,345
2
81
That's why I said "legal". It's really hard, if not impossible, to prevent a determined mass-killer from obtaining weapons.

More regulations will improve national healthcare system. More laws/regulations aren't always a bad thing. It helps with Wall Street!

I am of the belief that more regulation of the gun industry will lead to just that, more regulation. Many, including myself, will view it as an infringement of rights. I really don't see the benefit in this case.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
I'm OK with tightening, but the danger is that most people making tighter laws are clueless or build in extra measures on purpose to make things overly complicated for law abiding owners.

You're right about the first part, but no sacrifice, no win.

At some point, I think it's worth it to weight whether or not the sacrifice is worth the benefit. We just can't sit on our hands and do nothing, though.

I like to think about it with legalizing weed. Is making it legal worth it compared with the savings in resources and money to chase down petty drug-dealers?
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Why do you think rampage killings are a major issue that deserves nationwide attention? Because it's been on the news a lot?

They are more frequent I think in large part because if the medias reporting of them.

I don't have cable or watch cable television, all my stuff is Netflix streaming etc.

I only read my news.

I think it's a national issue because it impacts us nationally. If the nation collectively decided they would give these types of shooters zero attention or consideration. I would wager it would be more effective than any gun control at eliminating these types of crimes.


But rather than the gun culture coming up with solutions, they state it's a byproduct of 2nd amendment freedoms and suggest its just the price we have to pay.

I'm just saying its not acceptable, it's not a price I am willing to pay and absent of other options I support more gun control.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,150
108
106
I am of the belief that more regulation of the gun industry will lead to just that, more regulation. Many, including myself, will view it as an infringement of rights. I really don't see the benefit in this case.

I was referring to the healthcare system..
 
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