Conquering Hills on a Bicycle

[PrayForDeath]

This is absurd. Actually, professionals on really steep climbs (you can watch them on TV) will combine out of seat and in seat on the same hill to mix things up.

That's interesting... I will give this a try on my next ride. I just assumed you aren't spending as much energy since you're using your body weight to pedal.

Caffeine is a stimulant, not an energy drink. So regardless of its possible diuretic effects (looks like a long discussion) do you think it will actually make hill climbing easier?

 

[highland145]

That's interesting... I will give this a try on my next ride. I just assumed you aren't spending as much energy since you're using your body weight to pedal.

Caffeine is a stimulant, not an energy drink. So regardless of its possible diuretic effects (looks like a long discussion) do you think it will actually make hill climbing easier?

My experience: I get a little more speed sitting. Burn less energy standing but lose speed.

Sitting, leaning forward vs more upright works the quads differently.

The caffeine gives me a boost to ride longer before giving out. Men's health article, years ago, said endurance was increased ~17% per some amount(??) of caffeine. YMMV if you consume caffeine all day vs. before riding.

 

[Ghiedo27]

What do you mean exactly by "rest"? Are you suggesting I should take a day off biking?

Yes. Most amateur training programs have 4 or 5 days of training per week. If you're riding in terrain as hilly as you're making it out to be you are in effect doing some level of interval training and putting a good bit of stress on your body. If you have flat terrain available then recovery rides become a great option. The thing is, you need to stay at ~2/3 of the HR that you would at pace so it has to be an easy ride.

Eating 3-4 hours before a ride is perfect assuming there's a good bit of carbs in there. Standing on climbs is more work than staying in the saddle, but it's a good way to stretch or maintain the pace on a small steep section. Remember to keep your upper body relaxed while seated! About half a cup of coffee is supposed to help your body metabolize fat better, but it's also known to inhibit your bodies ability to deliver anaerobic energy (which is probably why you burn more fat in the first place). Given the terrain you're riding, I would avoid caffeine to keep more burst energy on tap.

Considering your weight, dropping down to the granny gear (the smallest gear on the front chain ring) probably isn't helping you at all (You do have 3 gears in front, right?). I suggest trying a ride where you avoid it completely. Conserve your effort at the bottom so you still have something in your legs at the top. Keep your legs moving over the crest. When you contract your muscles you push the de-oxygenated blood out of the capillaries back into the veins (to make room for fresh blood), so you want to practice active recovery by doing some light pedaling on the descent.

Sorry for the wall of text. It's just a lot of info to try and get into a small space. Don't forget to have fun with it all. My #1 tip is to listen to your body. If you love riding a lot, then just keep riding every day. But if you're in it to get faster, than work on maximizing recovery and get specific with your efforts. Keep a log of your waking HR (before you get out of bed). If you see that spike you'll know it's time for some rest no matter what. Take that as seriously as you would doctor's orders.

 

[PrayForDeath]

Considering your weight, dropping down to the granny gear (the smallest gear on the front chain ring) probably isn't helping you at all (You do have 3 gears in front, right?). I suggest trying a ride where you avoid it completely. Conserve your effort at the bottom so you still have something in your legs at the top. Keep your legs moving over the crest. When you contract your muscles you push the de-oxygenated blood out of the capillaries back into the veins (to make room for fresh blood), so you want to practice active recovery by doing some light pedaling on the descent.

Are you saying dropping to the smallest front gear (easiest) is bad for my climbing? I usually try to build enough momentum before reaching the hill so that I could get to the top before having to lower my gear, but some hills are too long or just too steep for me to do that and I'm forced to drop to the lowest gear.

I don't understand the second part of your quote well.

 

[Ghiedo27]

Are you saying dropping to the smallest front gear (easiest) is bad for my climbing?

I'm not going to say outright that it's "bad." It just doesn't make sense for your weight. It's somewhat like going to the gym and benching only the bar. You should have sufficient strength to maintain the middle chain ring. And by staying in the middle chain ring on your climbs you'll get more muscle involvement and gain strength.

I usually try to build enough momentum before reaching the hill so that I could get to the top before having to lower my gear

I think what you're doing is going way too hard and breaking into anaerobic levels early on and limping your way over the top. I think that you'll find more strength in your legs if you're conservative. Try lightly pedaling on the decent and gradually work your way into the effort of the next climb. Maintain a steady cadence and drop gears as necessary. Even, deep breaths. I like to count to 4 on each inhale and exhale (not counting seconds, just a quick count).

I don't understand the second part of your quote well.

Light pedaling gives you better blood flow in your legs than keeping them still. You don't need to put any real force into the pedals, but maintaining an even cadence while descending helps you recover.

 

[Capt Caveman]

My two cents:

1. Building-up one's endurance to allow you to pedal up hill using the current gearing that you are using. Best means to accomplish this would be to find longer hills or going back down that hill and repeat the cllimb.

2. Equipment - lighter bike can make a difference, if you're using a mountain bike, switching to thinner tires will reduce rolling resistance. Clipless pedals and shoes will make a significant difference as they'll allow you to utilize your up as well as down stroke while you're pedaling

3. Technique - I have always pedaled as fast as up to the hill as possible as the momentum will allow you climb in a lower gear(or stay in the current gear) longer before needing to downshift to a higher gear. This technique has allowed me to get over a hill without even having to downshift in come cases. Changing one's position on the saddle and also standing off the seat will allow you to use your muscles at different angles allowing for increased leverage(especially standing off the seat) and also reduce fatigue.

4. Cadence - based on all of the above, you always want to keep a smooth cadence to be as efficient as possible. No mashing on the pedals.

 

[GoSharks]

I'm not going to say outright that it's "bad." It just doesn't make sense for your weight. It's somewhat like going to the gym and benching only the bar. You should have sufficient strength to maintain the middle chain ring. And by staying in the middle chain ring on your climbs you'll get more muscle involvement and gain strength.

I don't understand how you can say this without knowing anything about the climb(s) in question.

 

[gar655]

I don't understand how you can say this without knowing anything about the climb(s) in question.

+1. Some hills are just plain steep regardless of your strength or gearing. I run a 39/52 up front and a 12-25 in the rear and I end up in the 39/25 standing and mashing on some hills.

Sure Contador would likely still be on the 52, be sitting and spinning along a 90rpms, but not many out there climb like the world's best. If you think you do then you should also be in the TDF.

Steep is steep.

 

[Ghiedo27]

I don't understand how you can say this without knowing anything about the climb(s) in question.

I hope it didn't come across as an absolute statement. You're totally right that it can't be. It's an assumption. However, the likelihood of a 170lb person needing to go down to 30t(?) front ring are extremely marginal if they're healthy enough to be riding for an hour every day.

I stand by the suggestion that taking it a bit easier at the start of the climb and avoiding the small chainring is the most likely way the OP can increase immediate results and climbing strength in the long term.

 

[GoSharks]

However, the likelihood of a 170lb person needing to go down to 30t(?) front ring are extremely marginal if they're healthy enough to be riding for an hour every day.

I stand by the suggestion that taking it a bit easier at the start of the climb and avoiding the small chainring is the most likely way the OP can increase immediate results and climbing strength in the long term.

I do almost all my climbing in my biggest gear, 34/27 (roughly equivalent to a 30/24). Would go lower if I could.
This is a typical ride for me:

 

[Ghiedo27]

What are you trying to illustrate? I'm trying to put some kind of context around the graph. It roughly looks like you're taking the 9%(?) gradient climb on mile 13 at around 4 or 5 mph. Is that accurate? I think the next gear down is walking! :biggrin:

But seriously, the first thing I typed was "First things first, don't beat yourself up for dropping to the lowest gear on steep slopes. Right gear for the right job." I hate to self quote, but I really, really want to emphasize that granny gear isn't a mark of shame. It just seems unlikely that the OP is riding around the neighborhood up and down 9% gradients for an hour. Even your route appears to be an out and back to a climb you like to do.

 

[Ghiedo27]

Maybe we're going about this the wrong way :hmm:

 

[GoSharks]

What are you trying to illustrate? I'm trying to put some kind of context around the graph. It roughly looks like you're taking the 9%(?) gradient climb on mile 13 at around 4 or 5 mph. Is that accurate? I think the next gear down is walking! :biggrin:

But seriously, the first thing I typed was "First things first, don't beat yourself up for dropping to the lowest gear on steep slopes. Right gear for the right job." I hate to self quote, but I really, really want to emphasize that granny gear isn't a mark of shame. It just seems unlikely that the OP is riding around the neighborhood up and down 9% gradients for an hour. Even your route appears to be an out and back to a climb you like to do.

How do you know that the hill he is climbing isn't a 9% grade? If OP can ride that in a 39/25 with any semblance of normal cadence, he wouldn't be asking these questions in the first place.

And the next gear down isn't walking. I might actually be quicker up long climbs with lower gearing, seeing how I am roughly doing 50% of my normal cadence (~105) while climbing 9% in 34/27.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Maybe we're going about this the wrong way :hmm:

Are you a know it all or a troll?

 

[coldmeat]

I have never, ever since I got my bike, shifted my front gear. I just make do with the 9 rear gears.

The hills I encounter on my rides are usually short but really steep, so I just stand up and power through them.

 

[PrayForDeath]

Ok I didn't bike yesterday because I wanted to rest my legs (they actually were a bit sore after 18 straight days of biking.)

Here's a list of things I'm willing to try on my next ride:

• Drink some coffee with honey just before I ride (I actually like coffee)
• Try as best I can to stay on the middle front gear instead of the lowest while climbing and maintain a steady cadence during the climb
• On tough climbs, alternate between standing and sitting on the saddle (I heard standing can impair your speed if not done properly, any tips for this?)

I usually eat fruits like cherries and orange for carbs before/after the ride. Is it okay to have a spoon of honey, peanut butter, or even a candy bar (mini Twix) instead??

 

[Doppel]

Regarding seated or standing, try both. A lot of people probably do get out of the seat too eagerly, but if you're really going at the hill try either one to see how it works. I only get out of the seat on my bike when accelerating fast or I'm already in the lowest gear and my cadence has dropped too low (maybe 60-70; I normally ride around 100 or so). You can waste energy with it but it has its place.

I think diet is the least of your concerns, coffee or other, as long as you're well rested. Unless you're suffering a glycogen deficit that pre-ride spike of sugar shouldn't really do much.

Kind of disappointed I didn't mention doing hill repeats. Find the hardest hill in your area, ride up, ride down, ride up. Not only will it make you strong but you'll feel like a badass because nobody else is doing it.

 

[Ghiedo27]

How do you know that the hill he is climbing isn't a 9% grade?

I don't. That's why I keep saying things like "likely" and "should try" instead of absolutes. Just working on probability because the only person who really knows the complete scenario is the OP. Do you consider my advice to be not worth trying at all?

Are you a know it all or a troll?

Neither. Just a guy that's been riding for a long time and has done his fair share of research. Picture was just supposed to be a joke. Sorry it offended you. Do you have any particular disagreement with my advice?

On tough climbs, alternate between standing and sitting on the saddle (I heard standing can impair your speed if not done properly, any tips for this?

Almost everyone rides at a lower cadence when they stand up, so they slow down as a result. If you want to maintain speed you need to shift up before you stand. On the other hand, if you're standing for a steep section just don't worry about it.

 

[highland145]

Are you a know it all or a troll?

Come on Capt. That was funny.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Neither. Just a guy that's been riding for a long time and has done his fair share of research. Picture was just supposed to be a joke. Sorry it offended you. Do you have any particular disagreement with my advice?

Not on the majority of it. I just think you need to work on your delivery. I used to race competitively for a number of years but know that the majority of people that post in this forum are novices.

I completely disagree with this:

Toe clips or any clipless pedal system can be great, but it's essentially impossible to provide a positive force on the upstroke. If you want proper form focus on pushing forward from 9 o'clock to 2 o'clock and pushing backwards from 5-8 o'clock (like you're scraping mudd off of your shoes.

 

[Ghiedo27]

So you're a masher? Up down > up down? A lot of people are. I just haven't seen anyone reference a power study that supported the habit. My clock references are way off there, though. I should fix that.

 

[Capt Caveman]

So you're a masher? Up down > up down? A lot of people are. I just haven't seen anyone reference a power study that supported the habit. My clock references are way off there, though. I should fix that.

No, you obviously didn't read my initial post in this thread. I'm going to put you in the thinks he knows it all category.

I was going to suggest mountain biking up a steep loose dirt hill but found that your link to the Bicycling.com article already did that:

Zone 3 Even though you feel like you're pulling your foot through the back of the stroke, you're not. "When you look at even the best cyclists, they're losing power on the upstroke," says Carver. "The pedal is actually pushing your leg up, so the goal is to lose as little power as possible and get that foot out of the way." One fun way to improve the efficiency of your upstroke: mountain biking. "The terrain keeps you honest," Carver says. "If you're focusing only on the downstroke, you'll lose traction and fall off your bike in steep sections." As for other exercises, Carver advises against single-leg pedal drills--"for recreation-level riders, they injure more people than they help"--but recommends hamstring and glute-strengthening lifts, as well as squats, "done correctly, in a squat rack with someone showing you how."

You need to place as much emphasis on the upstroke as you do the downstroke.

 

[Ghiedo27]

I'm sorry that I come across as a know it all. I just don't back off from what I've learned without something compelling. If anyone can link a reputable source regarding power gains in the upstroke I would be ecstatic because it's something new to look into. I absolutely respect the posters here- otherwise I wouldn't bother. I only intend to challenge ideas so people will add a bit more to what they're claiming.

For instance, you're referring me to your first post. Unfortunately, I don't think it has the information you think it does. After the paragraph on technique there's one throw away line about no mashing and staying smooth, but you've thrown out the concept of eliminating the dead spots that exist when the crank is vertical and only suggested adding lift to the upstroke. Maybe we just have a different definition for what a masher is.

The pedal is actually pushing your leg up, so the goal is to lose as little power as possible and get that foot out of the way

For me that was the key part. Yes, unweighting the upstroke is important. Focusing on the transition into and out of the down stroke are what add more power, though. That's the order I learned in so it just seemed natural to me. Once I took the 'slop' out of the transitions the upstroke didn't seem like a hard adjustment to make.

Thanks for taking the time to post. I appreciate it when someone takes the time and energy to disagree out of passion. :thumbsup:

 

[GoSharks]

I don't. That's why I keep saying things like "likely" and "should try" instead of absolutes. Just working on probability because the only person who really knows the complete scenario is the OP. Do you consider my advice to be not worth trying at all?

The problem is that OP has no idea of what things should feel like. How does he know when he should back off? You offer nothing along those lines.

 

[Ghiedo27]

That's fair criticism. I don't really know how to either. How do you relate how it feels to be over working your legs and not leveraging your gears properly? What about breaking lactate threshold or riding the cusp of doing so? I wouldn't know where to begin.