Rant Conspiracy theories/ Crazy thoughts -- Post your whackiest beliefs in here that no one agrees with WITHOUT REGRETS!

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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,843
13,774
146
You guys still haven't explained.. how the hell does it work?

How come this "diluted fake water" works on swelling/ inflammation on pain when "normal real water" doesn't??

What's your conspiracy theory behind that?
Prove to me it worked. That’s a more involved request than simply saying I had inflammation, I took a homeopathic remedy, the inflammation went down.

Does your inflammation go down without taking the remedy? Do you only take one remedy for inflammation? Does this remedy work for more than just you? Does this remedy work better than a placebo? Is the reported effect of the remedy repeatable. Is there a scientifically plausible causal mechanism for the reported effects. Does the remedy contain the ingredients it claims to contain?

I would need all of that answered and peer reviewed (which we have for medications like ibuprofen) before believing it was an effective treatment. Otherwise there isn’t a link between “I was sick. I took this and IT made me better”.

If you still don’t understand what I’m saying I could very easily say everytime I’ve gotten a stomach bug I’ve eaten saltine crackers and gotten better. So saltine crackers cure stomach bugs. They don’t. My immune system did.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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How come this "diluted fake water" works on swelling/ inflammation on pain when "normal real water" doesn't??
Get a cake from a supermarket. Then get one from your favorite bakery.

Which one tastes awesome?

You don't know the person who made the supermarket cake. You probably will never know.

But you may know or have seen the person behind the bakery cake.

Your brain is more receptive to the bakery cake's taste because it can form a meaningful connection between that cake and the person you know or have seen. It makes the cake special for you and you can taste that special something.

Plus, you can see other people in the bakery buying their stuff. So your brain is convinced their stuff must be good.

In the supermarket, that cake brand is lying all alone on the shelf and that aisle is almost empty. No other people there. You pick up the cake with doubt in your mind. Maybe it will be good. Maybe it won't be.

This is why homeopathy's placebo effect works. You do not doubt the cure. Or your brain has somehow created a belief in your subconscious that it will cure you. Then the body gets to work to make that reality come true.

This doesn't work with drugs that have dangerous interactions or side effects. Physics/biology/chemistry comes into play sooner or later. You can't "believe" away the bad things in drugs. Unless you are Charlie Sheen.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,397
7,036
136
Placebo effect:
This is proven even more because the effect you are experiencing is 100% dependent on perception.

You're using it for symptom control. Not a cure. Placebos are only effective for perception of symptom severity. They can cure exactly fuck all.

Interesting.. but how do you "cure" muscle aches and spasms?

They will eventually come back when you push yourself too hard.

What is the product?


I use a few of them. Wife uses the sinus calm.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,397
7,036
136
Your unwillingness to admit you may have experienced a placebo effect is 100% ego driven. Your unwillingness to admit your injury could/would have healed without the homeopathy is also 100% ego driven.

You're unwilling to admit you may have been duped.

LOL.

So you're willing to admit you're an idiot?

Say it you're an idiot and just bullying others into your viewpoint with ZERO proofs because it feeds YOUR EGO.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,603
12,733
146
Interesting.. but how do you "cure" muscle aches and spasms?

They will eventually come back when you push yourself too hard.




I use a few of them. Wife uses the sinus calm.
huh? Muscle aches are generally from either the muscle repairing itself (post-exercise), being strained (from not exercising), and spasms can be anything from nerve impulses due to muscle repair (also exercise) to neurological conditions. Given the array of symptoms, I'd wager someone needs physical therapy; I'd suggest strength training for the affected area, check back in 6 weeks to see what the progress was.

Your muscles are supposed to ache, strain, and probably spasm if you're working them appropriately.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,397
7,036
136
huh? Muscle aches are generally from either the muscle repairing itself (post-exercise), being strained (from not exercising), and spasms can be anything from nerve impulses due to muscle repair (also exercise) to neurological conditions. Given the array of symptoms, I'd wager someone needs physical therapy; I'd suggest strength training for the affected area, check back in 6 weeks to see what the progress was.

Your muscles are supposed to ache, strain, and probably spasm if you're working them appropriately.

Thank you. And I refuse to be in pain for days till it magically heals itself.

Atleast that stuff gives me relief within 20-30 minutes.

I just did a tile job recently.. my back hurt like hell afterwards.. took it, worked and it lowered the back spasms I felt.
 
Jul 27, 2020
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Checked the muscle soreness product. It contains an active ingredient:

Active Ingredient:** Arnica montana 1X HPUS-7%

So it's not really a dilution. Or maybe it is, until 7% of that ingredient remains in there? Anyway, it's documented that the plant helps in these cases.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,397
7,036
136
Checked the muscle soreness product. It contains an active ingredient:

Active Ingredient:** Arnica montana 1X HPUS-7%

So it's not really a dilution. Or maybe it is, until 7% of that ingredient remains in there? Anyway, it's documented that the plant helps in these cases.

duh!

But apparently it's all in my head with a placebo effect LOL!
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,603
12,733
146
duh!

But apparently it's all in my head with a placebo effect LOL!
So you're taking a painkiller. Glad we sleuthed that one out.

Next time just pop some fucking advil and save yourself the ridiculousness of this whole thing.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,397
7,036
136
So you're taking a painkiller. Glad we sleuthed that one out.

Next time just pop some fucking advil and save yourself the ridiculousness of this whole thing.

Tylenol/ Advil doesn't work on me.

If it did, I wouldn't be looking at alternatives!

But the plant based homeopathic cream does!

No it can't cure cancer.. no it will not make you tea in the morning but it does work on pain for me!
 
Reactions: igor_kavinski

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,603
12,733
146
Tylenol/ Advil doesn't work on me.

If it did, I wouldn't be looking at alternatives!
I said advil, not tylenol. Acetaminophen (tylenol) blocks the pain receptors in the brain. Ibuprofen (Advil) reduces swelling, fiddles with blood vessels, and reduces pain at the site. You should have taken a few Advil.
 
Reactions: hal2kilo

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,843
13,774
146
Interesting.. but how do you "cure" muscle aches and spasms?

They will eventually come back when you push yourself too hard.




I use a few of them. Wife uses the sinus calm.
I’m not checking everything on that page but I did check on the arthritis cream under your BOIRON link. While the box says homeopathic it doesn’t meet the definition. It seems to contain actual active ingredients and doesn’t appear to be diluted. The first ingredient I looked up has been used in natural remedies for arthritis.

So it’s plausible there is a causal mechanism for this arthritis cream to have an effect.

It is however a supplement and therefore doesn’t have to be assessed for efficacy or even checked to make sure it has what it says it has.

I guess I should have realized that the supplement business doesn’t even bother to follow its own definitions of what they are selling.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,603
12,733
146
I’m not checking everything on that page but I did check on the arthritis cream under your BOIRON link. While the box says homeopathic it doesn’t meet the definition. It seems to contain actual active ingredients and doesn’t appear to be diluted. The first ingredient I looked up has been used in natural remedies for arthritis.

So it’s plausible there is a causal mechanism for this arthritis cream to have an effect.

It is however a supplement and therefore doesn’t have to be assessed for efficacy or even checked to make sure it has what it says it has.

I guess I should have realized that the supplement business doesn’t even bother to follow its own definitions of what they are selling.
That's the fun thing about being a supplement or homeopathic, you don't have any actual regulations to follow other than 'don't kill people'.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,397
7,036
136
I’m not checking everything on that page but I did check on the arthritis cream under your BOIRON link. While the box says homeopathic it doesn’t meet the definition. It seems to contain actual active ingredients and doesn’t appear to be diluted. The first ingredient I looked up has been used in natural remedies for arthritis.

So it’s plausible there is a causal mechanism for this arthritis cream to have an effect.

It is however a supplement and therefore doesn’t have to be assessed for efficacy or even checked to make sure it has what it says it has.

I guess I should have realized that the supplement business doesn’t even bother to follow its own definitions of what they are selling.

So we've been arguing on homeopathic medicine that doesn't appear to be homeopathic and is therefore effective so your argument about it being ineffective is ineffective and therefore it means my experience is legitimate?

Is that what's going on?

Man I thought conspiracy theories were more fun than that!
 
Reactions: igor_kavinski

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,967
8,688
136
So we've been arguing on homeopathic medicine that doesn't appear to be homeopathic and is therefore effective so your argument about it being ineffective is ineffective and therefore it means my experience is legitimate?

Is that what's going on?

Man I thought conspiracy theories were more fun than that!
No. We've been arguing that homeopathic medicine doesn't work because there's no scientific way it can. You've been arguing that it does by using some medicine that isn't homeopathic as an example.
So your experience has not been legitimate in two ways!
 
Reactions: igor_kavinski

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,501
27,791
136
Interesting.. but how do you "cure" muscle aches and spasms?

They will eventually come back when you push yourself too hard.




I use a few of them. Wife uses the sinus calm.
Thanks. Looking at the ingredients for the SinusCalm, it contains atropine at a dose of less than 1E-8 mg. Internal use of atropine is rare so it is difficult to find therapeutic dose information for non-heart related ailments but it appears that for these ailments, the recommended dosage is about 1 mg. So the SisusCalm, while containing an active ingredient, contains about a hundred millionth of a medically effective dose.

I should point out that herbal medicine absolutely works for many conditions when using the right herbs at the right dosages. Homeopathy fails because the dosages, where there is any drug at all, are too low to be therapeutic.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,658
24,956
136
Thanks. Looking at the ingredients for the SinusCalm, it contains atropine at a dose of less than 1E-8 mg. Internal use of atropine is rare so it is difficult to find therapeutic does information for non-heart related ailments but it appears that for these ailments, the recommended dosage is about 1 mg. So the SisusCalm, while containing an active ingredient, contains about a hundred millionth of a medically effective dose.

I should point out that herbal medicine absolutely works for many conditions when using the right herbs at the right dosages. Homeopathy fails because the dosages, where there is any drug at all, are too low to be therapeutic.
But the water remembers !
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,535
12,840
136
No. We've been arguing that homeopathic medicine doesn't work because there's no scientific way it can. You've been arguing that it does by using some medicine that isn't homeopathic as an example.
So your experience has not been legitimate in two ways!
Well, they've put "homeopathic" on the box, so I can understand the confusion.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,843
13,774
146
So we've been arguing on homeopathic medicine that doesn't appear to be homeopathic and is therefore effective so your argument about it being ineffective is ineffective and therefore it means my experience is legitimate?

Is that what's going on?

Man I thought conspiracy theories were more fun than that!
Well we’ve been arguing based on the information at hand, which according to you you were taking a homeopathic remedy.

Like a lot of words there’s the real meaning: “a diluted chemical used as a remedy” vs the marketing meaning: “an alternative medicine that maybe a dilution or maybe a natural based remedy but that doesn’t not need to be verified as safe or effective by a governmental body”.

So we are correct in that homeopathic dilutions do not work past the placebo effect, but you are likely correct in that you get an effect from the cream as it has active ingredients.

That being said let me provide you with a warning about using these types of homeopathic/natural/ alternative remedies.

Thanks to the 1994 law they are not required to provide basic information to the FDA about what’s in their products and they are allowed to self regulate their safety. The FDA can only get one pulled after an issue is found :

Under the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA)—the 1994 law that established the current regulatory framework for dietary supplements—the FDA generally does not conduct premarket review of dietary supplements, and manufacturers are not required to provide the agency with basic information about their products, including names or ingredients, before selling them.20 This leaves the agency with no clear view of what’s on the market at any given time. The FDA instead largely relies on postmarket surveillance methods to monitor the safety of these products (AE monitoring, inspections, internet searches), and can only restrict their use or mandate a recall if it can prove that a product or ingredient is unsafe.21, 22 However, bans or recalls can consume significant time and resources; it took the FDA 7 years of litigation, which went all the way to US Supreme Court, to ban the use of the amphetamine derivative 1,3-dimethylamylamine, and 7 years to ban ephedra, an ingredient associated with increased risk of stroke and death.23, 24Additionally, because the FDA does not have mandatory recall authority over drugs as it does over supplements, it is unclear whether the agency can mandate a recall of supplement products tainted with active pharmaceutical ingredients. These products currently fall into a regulatory gray zone.25

Meanwhile, unsafe supplements continue to reach consumers through a legal loophole that allows manufacturers or distributers to “self-affirm” the safety of dietary ingredients through the generally recognized as safe (GRAS) exemption for food products.26 This exemption allows them to circumvent the FDA’s new dietary ingredient notification (NDIN) pathway—the agency’s premarket review process for supplements that contain novel dietary ingredients.27 The FDA estimated in September 2016 that it had received over 900 premarket NDINs since the process was finalized in 1997—far below the agency’s expectation.28, 29 Unless the FDA finalizes the NDIN guidance to better capture products intended for a GRAS designation or unless Congress addresses this loophole through legislation, manufacturers will continue to pursue the less burdensome—and less rigorous—GRAS exemption.

Now being that you frequent P&N you might be able to guess which party proposed this legislation that allows a billion dollar industry to bypass basic safety checks by the FDA.


If you guessed Republicans ding ding you are a winner. Utah Senator Orin Hatch championed this one.

So please understand that using alternative remedies isn’t without risks and in most ways the risk is higher than actual medications, (although it may still be worth it to you), and you are relying on unregulated companies doing the right thing and the good governance of republicans.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,501
27,791
136
Well we’ve been arguing based on the information at hand, which according to you you were taking a homeopathic remedy.

Like a lot of words there’s the real meaning: “a diluted chemical used as a remedy” vs the marketing meaning: “an alternative medicine that maybe a dilution or maybe a natural based remedy but that doesn’t not need to be verified as safe or effective by a governmental body”.

So we are correct in that homeopathic dilutions do not work past the placebo effect, but you are likely correct in that you get an effect from the cream as it has active ingredients.

That being said let me provide you with a warning about using these types of homeopathic/natural/ alternative remedies.

Thanks to the 1994 law they are not required to provide basic information to the FDA about what’s in their products and they are allowed to self regulate their safety. The FDA can only get one pulled after an issue is found :

Under the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act (DSHEA)—the 1994 law that established the current regulatory framework for dietary supplements—the FDA generally does not conduct premarket review of dietary supplements, and manufacturers are not required to provide the agency with basic information about their products, including names or ingredients, before selling them.20 This leaves the agency with no clear view of what’s on the market at any given time. The FDA instead largely relies on postmarket surveillance methods to monitor the safety of these products (AE monitoring, inspections, internet searches), and can only restrict their use or mandate a recall if it can prove that a product or ingredient is unsafe.21, 22 However, bans or recalls can consume significant time and resources; it took the FDA 7 years of litigation, which went all the way to US Supreme Court, to ban the use of the amphetamine derivative 1,3-dimethylamylamine, and 7 years to ban ephedra, an ingredient associated with increased risk of stroke and death.23, 24Additionally, because the FDA does not have mandatory recall authority over drugs as it does over supplements, it is unclear whether the agency can mandate a recall of supplement products tainted with active pharmaceutical ingredients. These products currently fall into a regulatory gray zone.25

Meanwhile, unsafe supplements continue to reach consumers through a legal loophole that allows manufacturers or distributers to “self-affirm” the safety of dietary ingredients through the generally recognized as safe (GRAS) exemption for food products.26 This exemption allows them to circumvent the FDA’s new dietary ingredient notification (NDIN) pathway—the agency’s premarket review process for supplements that contain novel dietary ingredients.27 The FDA estimated in September 2016 that it had received over 900 premarket NDINs since the process was finalized in 1997—far below the agency’s expectation.28, 29 Unless the FDA finalizes the NDIN guidance to better capture products intended for a GRAS designation or unless Congress addresses this loophole through legislation, manufacturers will continue to pursue the less burdensome—and less rigorous—GRAS exemption.

Now being that you frequent P&N you might be able to guess which party proposed this legislation that allows a billion dollar industry to bypass basic safety checks by the FDA.


If you guessed Republicans ding ding you are a winner. Utah Senator Orin Hatch championed this one.

So please understand that using alternative remedies isn’t without risks and in most ways the risk is higher than actual medications, (although it may still be worth it to you), and you are relying on unregulated companies doing the right thing and the good governance of republicans.
One of the strange outcomes of this law is that if, by chance, one of these supplements proves to be medicinal then the FDA can regulate it. As long as the products are pure quackery, the FDA can't touch the manufacturer.
 
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