Constitutional? Louisiana about to pass law requiring 10 Commandments be displayed in public schools

[Paratus]

I think you mean + civil laws. Murdering someone means I have to go to confession and do an appropriate penance. The appropriate penance now is to turn myself into the police. But then we have a quandry.

Yes. So for example if you are a small business owner who got a business license as a public accommodation meaning you can’t discriminate against serving the public but your church requires you to discriminate against gays, women, etc then you lose your business via civil law when you discriminate or the government punishes you for not discriminating per your religion.

If that’s an issue you can register with a different church that doesn’t have that intrinsic contradiction.

While this is written partially tongue in cheek I’d like to point out that our constitution allows us to pursue or not pursue our own religious beliefs and maybe using the governments power to enforce your beliefs on others makes you (royal you not necessarily you in particular) a good <insert religion here> but it makes you unamerican.

 

[Ajay]

LoL you committed a cardinal sin by your own standards but you think doing a penance is good enough?

No. With @Paratus suggestion - there would be a problem if church 'law' were put into practice. Only the civil authorities have the right to punish a murderer correctly. I mean, the church wouldn't allow said person to receive the sacraments (well, except for last rites). So, that's clearly not sufficient.

 

[Ajay]

While this is written partially tongue in cheek I’d like to point out that our constitution allows us to pursue or not pursue our own religious beliefs and maybe using the government's power to enforce your beliefs on others makes you (royal you not necessarily you in particular) a good <insert religion here> but it makes you unamerican.

This, I guess, I never get. I can't force the government to force my beliefs on anyone. We all have agency (aside for various corruptions by that). We vote at the polls, representatives who agree with us draft laws (which has to go thru the full congress + president to become law). I think that is completely within democratic norms.

 

[nakedfrog]

This, I guess, I never get. I can't force the government to force my beliefs on anyone. We all have agency (aside for various corruptions by that). We vote at the polls, representatives who agree with us draft laws (which has to go thru the full congress + president to become law). I think that is completely within democratic norms.

If we institute a legal requirement for all babies to be circumsized (based on religion) this is fine, as long as it follows the democratic process?

 

[brycejones]

This, I guess, I never get. I can't force the government to force my beliefs on anyone. We all have agency (aside for various corruptions by that). We vote at the polls, representatives who agree with us draft laws (which has to go thru the full congress + president to become law). I think that is completely within democratic norms.

So anything goes as long as you can push it through the legislative process?

 

[brycejones]

If we institute a legal requirement for all babies to be circumsized (based on religion) this is fine, as long as it follows the democratic process?

I'm not sure @Ajay really understands the full consequences of what they just said.

 

[Paratus]

This, I guess, I never get. I can't force the government to force my beliefs on anyone. We all have agency (aside for various corruptions by that). We vote at the polls, representatives who agree with us draft laws (which has to go thru the full congress + president to become law). I think that is completely within democratic norms.

Take abortions. Abortion as murder is a religious belief. Religious voters voted in politicians who expressly said they would enforce this religious belief on women (and girls) and remove their right to life and liberty without due process while pregnant. All of this is strictly speaking a violation of constitutional principles.

I believe you are Catholic so correct me if I’m wrong but voting to ban abortion is seen as being a good Catholic, but as I’ve stated above it’s an unamerican position. It enforces a religious position on other Americans and removes constitutionally protected rights.

 

[pmv]

Take abortions. Abortion as murder is a religious belief. Religious voters voted in politicians who expressly said they would enforce this religious belief on women (and girls) and remove their right to life and liberty without due process. All of this is strictly speaking a violation of constitutional principles.

I believe you are Catholic so correct me if I’m wrong but voting to ban abortion is seen as being a good Catholic, but as I’ve stated above it’s an unamerican position. It enforces a religious position on other Americans and removes constitutionally protected rights.

Surely it's a bit complicated, though, because whether it removes "constitutionally protected rights" is something that the US system leaves to the Supreme Court to decide? Ultimately what the Constitution says is whatever the Supreme Court says it says?

I don't know, I don't think I agree with Ajay about anything at all, but this argument seems to be getting into quite deep waters. I mean, I thought the idea was, that the guard against all things being OK as long as they were "democratically arrived at" was supposed to be the limits on absolute democracy imposed by things like Constitutional rights - but then you have a system for interpreting those rights that clearly itself can be gamed and manipulated, so not sure where that leaves you.

Ultimately people believe what they believe and in the end it might be that it always comes down to having to fight it out, one way or another.

 

[Paratus]

Surely it's a bit complicated, though, because whether it removes "constitutionally protected rights" is something that the US system leaves to the Supreme Court to decide? Ultimately what the Constitution says is whatever the Supreme Court says it says?

I don't know, I don't think I agree with Ajay about anything at all, but this argument seems to be getting into quite deep waters. I mean, I thought the idea was, that the guard against all things being OK as long as they were "democratically arrived at" was supposed to be the limits on absolute democracy imposed by things like Constitutional rights - but then you have a system for interpreting those rights that clearly itself can be gamed and manipulated, so not sure where that leaves you.

Ultimately people believe what they believe and in the end it might be that it always comes down to having to fight it out, one way or another.

Well that’s the ongoing problem with far right political parties around the world. They all say, “We need votes so we can deliver laws to our benefactors. We’ll not play by the agreed to rules so we can provide a non financial perceived benefit (I.e. harming a small or less powerful minority) to a portion of our citizens (a larger minority of the population who values harming the smaller minority) in exchange for their votes. Once in power we’ll harm the smaller minority and in return pass laws extracting wealth from the entire population which we pass on to our benefactors. Then our benefactors share some of that wealth with us rinse and repeat.”

It’s why I called it un-American to elect politicians who will bypass the rules we agreed to live by.

 

[JD50]

I think you mean + civil laws. Murdering someone means I have to go to confession and do an appropriate penance. The appropriate penance now is to turn myself into the police. But then we have a quandry.

This is a pretty good example of how awful religion is, and it's one of the big things that started my journey away from organized religion and then eventually to Atheism. Such an absurd thing that that's the appropriate punishment for murder lol.

 

[fskimospy]

This is a pretty good example of how awful religion is, and it's one of the big things that started my journey away from organized religion and then eventually to Atheism. Such an absurd thing that that's the appropriate punishment for murder lol.

The sliding scale of damnation is pretty weird to me too. Don't believe in Jesus but live an otherwise perfect life? Eternal damnation. Believe in Jesus, be a serial killer for 99% of your life, and at the end genuinely repent? Party time in heaven.

 

[nickqt]

The sliding scale of damnation is pretty weird to me too. Don't believe in Jesus but live an otherwise perfect life? Eternal damnation. Believe in Jesus, be a serial killer for 99% of your life, and at the end genuinely repent? Party time in heaven.

It's almost like its a bunch of made-up bullshit.

 

[MrSquished]

It seems the Republicans are what some of us have said they are, evil. All I see every week is more evidence that backs that up. The Trump Party is full on evil.

 

[trenchfoot]

This is how religious people work..."ooopsie....I'll just ask for forgiveness and it's all good".

The religious version of having an infinite supply of get out of jail free cards.

 

[thilanliyan]

The religious version of having an infinite supply of get out of jail free cards.

Yeah, instead of taking responsibility for their own actions, they're able to pawn it off on "God's will" or whatever the religious flavour of the month is.

 

[APU_Fusion]

Almost all religion that focuses on any salvation external to our own mind is about power and control and the need to have in-groups and out-groups. Ajay talking penance after murder so mildly is so typical of the arrogant condescension of religion. The Bible said so is so lame. Which interpretation? Which language? What about the passages thrown out at The First Council of Niacea? Were those passages the work of Satan or was the Council of Niacea the work of Satan? How many women were in the Council of Niacea? I am sure Jesus wanted Mary of Magdeline to be classified as a whore right Ajay? I mean Popes are infallible right? It’s not like a Pope just used a nasty slur word for gay people Infallible. I am sure God hates the gay because Her infallible representative on earth are infallible. I am sure God decreed no woman could serve as her infallible representative on earth right? What complete nonsense. As long as a priest repents he can rape as many altar boys as he wants and still be welcomed in heaven with open arms. Ugh.

 

[feralkid]

The sliding scale of damnation is pretty weird to me too. Don't believe in Jesus but live an otherwise perfect life? Eternal damnation. Believe in Jesus, be a serial killer for 99% of your life, and at the end genuinely repent? Party time in heaven.

Certainly explains the appeal for some, eh?

 

[Stokely]

Almost all religion that focuses on any salvation external to our own mind is about power and control and the need to have in-groups and out-groups.

This here is why there really shouldn't be any surprise about Evangelicals flocking to Trump. He's all about small-g godhood and most religious people just want a big daddy to distill things down to "good vs bad" and take care of things. No thought or context desired. And of course, it's pretty hilarious to hear all the "imperfect vessel of God" and other pretzel logic nonsense about Trump's raping, womanizing, cheating and now official felon status...what a hero!

 

[IronWing]

This here is why there really shouldn't be any surprise about Evangelicals flocking to Trump. He's all about small-g godhood and most religious people just want a big daddy to distill things down to "good vs bad" and take care of things. No thought or context desired. And of course, it's pretty hilarious to hear all the "imperfect vessel of God" and other pretzel logic nonsense about Trump's raping, womanizing, cheating and now official felon status...what a hero!

Nah, Trump delivered the goods (Roe v Wade gone and a couple totally whack rulings in favor of religious privilege) for evangelicals. From their perspective, Trump's presidency was a major victory.

 

[Stokely]

I wasn't arguing that, I agree. Basically they love just about everything about him. Sure, it's kind of annoying when he says the things out loud that they'd prefer to keep to themselves, but they rationalize those away easily. Watched all my relatives do that almost overnight when he stomped all over their choices of Cruz and Jeb.

 

[Fenixgoon]

In a move that probably shocks no one, the governor signed the bill. Just waiting for the lawsuits to fly.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/19/politics/louisiana-classrooms-ten-commandments/index.html

 

[nakedfrog]

In a move that probably shocks no one, the governor signed the bill. Just waiting for the lawsuits to fly.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/19/politics/louisiana-classrooms-ten-commandments/index.html

Which is probably just want they want, get it in front of SCOTUS who will then say "well actually it's fine, but only for Christianity because reasons".

 

[BoomerD]

Do they not realize…the 10 commandments isn’t a Jeezus thing…but rather, Jewish?

 

[Paratus]

Do they not realize…the 10 commandments isn’t a Jeezus thing…but rather, Jewish?

Do they even realize Jesus wasn’t a white English speaking Christian?

 

[sdifox]

Blue eyed blonde Jesus is a lie!

But the Jesus is a lie so what is a few more?