Consumer Confidence Soars in December

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conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Is that reason because the "doom and gloom" agenda of the "liberals" is all in your head? You and Pabster and God only knows who else have this imaginary liberal faction that rejoyces in bad economic news, and that spins all positive news into something bad. But maybe, and this is a crazy thought, maybe the hated liberals are simply being realistic and cautious. After several years of a pretty bad economic outlook, it seems acceptable not to immediatly jump on the bandwagon of economic recovery. Now that the outlook does indeed look like it's going to be more positive, almost everyone seems to be getting onboard, if cautiously at first.

In fact, the only time I hear about doom and gloom is when you guys are bitching about it.
ANd this is where i disagree. There have now been a couple good years of solid growth and the entire time the press has only been trumpeting ever bad portion of the economy. Is this a case of it bleeds it leads or political bias. I dont know but I would lean to later. There are numerous examples of press treating similar economic news different based up who is office. CNN rewarded clinton for unemployment being a 5.5%, bush got slammd for it. There are also numerous examples of papers running the bad news front page, but burying the good news.

I can understand the cautioned outlook, but we have solid growth for over 2 years now, It appear there are some that want right the doom and gloom right into the next recession. I guess with this attitude, one day they will be right.
Apparently the press sees through the fluff and realizes this is a very lop-sided economy, as has been pointed out many, many times up here. The rich are getting richer, corporations are making profits, but most Americans are being left in the cold.
 
Jul 12, 2004
47
0
0
On a positive note, the Canadian economy in 2004/5 has been strong even when the US economy was weak. Currently the DOW is lower than the TSE (Toronto Stock Exchange) because companies are selling the greenback due to it's poor performance and buying Canadian loonies which out performed all other currencies in 2005.

I find it funny when people look at the immidiate future and 'assume' the not too distant future is going to be the same. How naive. There's going to be major problems in the US once the baby boomers retire. Your seniors visit Canada so they can afford their medication because the companies in the US gouge the sick (how un-American is that?). Energy is only going to get more expensive and the US currently has little oil reserves to profit from. Here in Canada we find more oil each month so our economy is going to grow with the price of oil.

I think the US could turn itself around but that would require the rich giving back to the poor which we all know is NOT the American dream. Such a pity.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,476
3,976
126
Originally posted by: charrison
What parts of the economy are on shakey foundations. OVerall the economy seems pretty healthy. There are of course parts of the economy where things could be better, but that is always the case. Alll economic indicators are never all poiinted in the positive direction all the time.
I could type on this for hours, but I won't. I'll just hit some of the big highlights.

Housing
There was a housing boom due in part to interest rates that were at 40 year lows. No boom lasts forever, and interest rates have risen 13 times (and these increases are just now affecting mortgage interest rates). This debate could go on forever whether there will or won't be a burst bubble. I won't go there. But if you watch the housing numbers, they are very unstable. Record increases in data one month, followed by record decreases in that same data the next month. Record increase in new home sales from from Sept to Oct was completely erased with massive decrease from Oct to Nov. These wild fluctuations are NOT a stable foundation. Its hard to be optimistic with a 19-year high inventory of unsold homes. Rising mortgage rates combined with the interest only loans that will start kicking in interest in 2006 (they started in popularity in 2001 with 5 years interest free) will take a huge bite out of the consumer's fun money.

For example, last year, 7% of the money that consumers spent was from taking money out of their house with a home equity loan or second mortgage. Basically, they used up this one time source of cash. It isn't available any more. And with raising interest rates, watch that 7% go away. Since consumers are about 1/3rd of the GDP, that added ~2% to the GDP growth last year. Watch that 7% shrink towards 0% in 2006, taking a 2% hit to GDP growth by the end of 2006. Falling housing prices are now occuring in some local areas, that'll kill the flipping businesses and further prevent equity spending.

Savings rate
Americans had a negative savings rate for ~6 months in a row. This trend CANNOT continue forever. When they start reeling in spending, expect a small GDP hit (my guess is in early 2006, but I could be way off there).

Federal deficits will eventually be reeled in
This recent trend cannot continue forever. When the government does finally cut back on spending and/or raises taxes, expect a hit to GDP. A government can spend a country out of recession. But that comes at a cost of lowered growth in the future as the debt is paid. I believe congress is now going to show some fiscal restraint (and the restraint will grow in late 2006 - 2007). So expect a small GDP hit during that time.

Rising inflation
2003 inflation (Dec 2002-Dec 2003): 1.9%
2004 inflation (Dec 2003-Dec 2004): 3.3%
2005 inflation (Nov 2004-Nov 2005): 3.5% Dec numbers aren't out yet, so this isn't an official number.
I don't know if the rising inflation will continue. 3.5% isn't bad. But if the trend continues, that'll could be an economic hit in 2007. Oil prices show no sign of dropping, so I certainly don't see inflation dropping. Lets hope it stays at 3.5% and doesn't rise further.

GDP
GDP has been a bright spot. Don't get me wrong, it is good now. Let me repeat, it is good now. But, it is off its recent highs as well. The most recent high was 7.2% GDP growth in a quarter in late 2003. GDP growth for all of 2004 was 4.2%. There wasn't a single quarter of 2005 that was at 4.2%, all were lower. Due to the unusual auto sales, GDP growth for 4th quarter 2005 is likely to be near 3.3% (a good number, but tied for the lowest since 1st quarter 2003). That'll put the whole 2005 year at 3.6% GDP growth. Hopefully, it'll stay there since 3.6% is good. But there is a short trend of dropping GDP growth, and the signs I posted above all point towards further GDP hits in the next 2 years.

Employment
The unemployment rate has been a real bright spot. However, there seems to be a generational shift going on. In the 90s and early 2000s, there were a ton of dual earner families. This trend is easing. I personally feel that is good for society - we need our kids raised by a parent, not daycare. Masked in the unemployment rate is a ton of people who are just simply out of the job market. Other countries count these people as unemployeed, we ignore them. Again, socially, this is probably a good thing. However, as it occurs, there will be less taxable income and the federal governement will struggle in the next 5 years to cope. That will mean less spending (which hurts GDP) and/or tax adjustments.

Ammunition gone
The government has three big anti-recession weapons: lowered taxes, increased spending, and lowered interest rates. I think that ammunition has been spent. I do not see any significant tax decreases any time soon, that ammo is gone. Sure we will continue to reap the benefits of the recent tax cuts. But, if the economy does sour, we won't have that card up our sleeves any more. Increased spending is available. However, I think congress will finally reel it in. The political pressure is too great to use this ammo to fight a recession. Interest rates can be lowered back to the 40 year lows. But it won't happen with the current inflation rate trend.

Basically, we have to sit and wait if a recession comes. The government cannot be proactive and fight it off. That is why we as people should be pessimistic and be prepared to fight it ourselves. You have given me no reason yet why we should be unprepared.

Overall
I predict stable inflation at around 3.5%, maybe a tad higher. I expect GDP to drop to 0%-1% growth by mid-2007. That is not a recession, but it is below population growth so, if you use per capita GDP it is negative. Unemployment rates will stay low, in the mid 5% range by 2007. However, that'll be including the generational shift. Government deficits will be difficult to stop. We might actually see small tax increases in 2007 or 2008. Hopefully, we can prevent that from happening. These are all my personal estimates. We, as consumers can make things better than my estimates. But, that'll require us to be realistic about the potential that the current good economy may not stay so rosy.

We need to get the savings rate back to zero at least. Yes, that'll be a GDP hit, but it has to happen. The sooner, the better. We need to stop expecting housing in California to grow at 10%+ per year and stop getting interest only loans that we cannot afford. We need to be very careful with credit card debt. It looks like the new bankruptcy law might not work as intended (it is uncertain yet). But still, we need to keep that under control as consumers so that the government doesn't have to bail us out. We need to pressure congress to get pork out of the budget. We need to let congress cut spending in non-critical areas. We need to plan for the potential of tax raises in the next few years. We need to build a little safety net (savings) so we can weather any upcoming recession. Etc. But in order to do these things, we have to be realistic about the current economy and the potential for future problems.
Unfounded gloom is probably more dangerous.
Low confidence numbers are dangerous, that is true. You can wish yourself into a recession/depression. But we are far, far from that point. Current confidence numbers did take a dive from their highs in the late 90s, but they are still positive. Thus, this isn't a worry at this point. Unfounded optimism is more of a potential problem currently.

I would disagree as a pessimist will always see the worst in things, even when they are good...I would disagree on this too. An optimist will realize that when things dont go as hoped, they are also realize that things could have gone worse.
Some things we will just have to disagree on. I personally am a pessimist and I'm always pleasantly surprised and usually quite happy. My optimist friends are always grumpy that things aren't doing what they should.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: dullard
Housing
There was a housing boom due in part to interest rates that were at 40 year lows. No boom lasts forever, and interest rates have risen 13 times (and these increases are just now affecting mortgage interest rates). This debate could go on forever whether there will or won't be a burst bubble. I won't go there. But if you watch the housing numbers, they are very unstable. Record increases in data one month, followed by record decreases in that same data the next month. Record increase in new home sales from from Sept to Oct was completely erased with massive decrease from Oct to Nov. These wild fluctuations are NOT a stable foundation. Its hard to be optimistic with a 19-year high inventory of unsold homes. Rising mortgage rates combined with the interest only loans that will start kicking in interest in 2006 (they started in popularity in 2001 with 5 years interest free) will take a huge bite out of the consumer's fun money.

For example, last year, 7% of the money that consumers spent was from taking money out of their house with a home equity loan or second mortgage. Basically, they used up this one time source of cash. It isn't available any more. And with raising interest rates, watch that 7% go away. Since consumers are about 1/3rd of the GDP, that added ~2% to the GDP growth last year. Watch that 7% shrink towards 0% in 2006, taking a 2% hit to GDP growth by the end of 2006. Falling housing prices are now occuring in some local areas, that'll kill the flipping businesses and further prevent equity spending.
IT does appear we are headed for a soft landing on the housing market. By most standards interest rates are still low. And even if people pulled equity out in a refinance, that does not mean they are worse situation than before. trading an 8% loan for 5.5% loan and taking some cash out will still give you lower payments.


Savings rate
Americans had a negative savings rate for ~6 months in a row. This trend CANNOT continue forever. When they start reeling in spending, expect a small GDP hit (my guess is in early 2006, but I could be way off there).

Yes this is bit concerning, but the saving rate has been on decline for the last 15 or so years. But at the same time, thing like 401ks and retirement funds are not counted as savings.

Federal deficits will eventually be reeled in
This recent trend cannot continue forever. When the government does finally cut back on spending and/or raises taxes, expect a hit to GDP. A government can spend a country out of recession. But that comes at a cost of lowered growth in the future as the debt is paid. I believe congress is now going to show some fiscal restraint (and the restraint will grow in late 2006 - 2007). So expect a small GDP hit during that time.

They appear to coming in under control. It appears given the current rate of tax revenue growth and spending growth continues, we will have a balanced budget again in a couple years. However this all depends on what the folks in DC do.

Rising inflation
2003 inflation (Dec 2002-Dec 2003): 1.9%
2004 inflation (Dec 2003-Dec 2004): 3.3%
2005 inflation (Nov 2004-Nov 2005): 3.5% Dec numbers aren't out yet, so this isn't an official number.
I don't know if the rising inflation will continue. 3.5% isn't bad. But if the trend continues, that'll could be an economic hit in 2007. Oil prices show no sign of dropping, so I certainly don't see inflation dropping. Lets hope it stays at 3.5% and doesn't rise further.

Inflation appears to be under control. But i Agree if it goes much higher it could lead to more serious problems.

GDP
GDP has been a bright spot. Don't get me wrong, it is good now. Let me repeat, it is good now. But, it is off its recent highs as well. The most recent high was 7.2% GDP growth in a quarter in late 2003. GDP growth for all of 2004 was 4.2%. There wasn't a single quarter of 2005 that was at 4.2%, all were lower. Due to the unusual auto sales, GDP growth for 4th quarter 2005 is likely to be near 3.3% (a good number, but tied for the lowest since 1st quarter 2003). That'll put the whole 2005 year at 3.6% GDP growth. Hopefully, it'll stay there since 3.6% is good. But there is a short trend of dropping GDP growth, and the signs I posted above all point towards further GDP hits in the next 2 years.

Anuthing above 3% growth is pretty good growth.


Employment
The unemployment rate has been a real bright spot. However, there seems to be a generational shift going on. In the 90s and early 2000s, there were a ton of dual earner families. This trend is easing. I personally feel that is good for society - we need our kids raised by a parent, not daycare. Masked in the unemployment rate is a ton of people who are just simply out of the job market. Other countries count these people as unemployeed, we ignore them. Again, socially, this is probably a good thing. However, as it occurs, there will be less taxable income and the federal governement will struggle in the next 5 years to cope. That will mean less spending (which hurts GDP) and/or tax adjustments.

First a thumbs up to GenX for deciding to stay home and raise kids. IF anything I think there very well could be labor shortage in the next few year as more parents choose to stay home and the boomers start to retire. This should drive wages up.


Ammunition gone
The government has three big anti-recession weapons: lowered taxes, increased spending, and lowered interest rates. I think that ammunition has been spent. I do not see any significant tax decreases any time soon, that ammo is gone. Sure we will continue to reap the benefits of the recent tax cuts. But, if the economy does sour, we won't have that card up our sleeves any more. Increased spending is available. However, I think congress will finally reel it in. The political pressure is too great to use this ammo to fight a recession. Interest rates can be lowered back to the 40 year lows. But it won't happen with the current inflation rate trend.

Basically, we have to sit and wait if a recession comes. The government cannot be proactive and fight it off. That is why we as people should be pessimistic and be prepared to fight it ourselves. You have given me no reason yet why we should be unprepared.

I dont think the ammuntion is used up, but I will agree there will be less leeway. Tax revenues are hope, so more tax cut culd be possible. Interest rates are back so they could be lowered again. THis happens every business cycle. This one appears to be shaping up no different.



OVerall things are not on a shaky foundation. Thing by and large are doing quite well.
 

Pabster

Lifer
Apr 15, 2001
16,986
1
0
Originally posted by: conjur
The rich are getting richer, corporations are making profits, but most Americans are being left in the cold.

What exactly is the problem with corporations making profits? This is America, and Capitalism is the cornerstone.

And I disagree completely with the 'most Americans are being left in the cold' nonsense. All the economic indicators show otherwise, and have for some time.

This recent housing paranoia from the MSM is just another example of desperation. The Fed's have been raising interest rates for some time now. As interest rates climb, housing slows. It's never been any different.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Pabster
Originally posted by: conjur
The rich are getting richer, corporations are making profits, but most Americans are being left in the cold.
What exactly is the problem with corporations making profits? This is America, and Capitalism is the cornerstone.
Nothing as long as that largess is shared with the workers, which it isn't.

And I disagree completely with the 'most Americans are being left in the cold' nonsense. All the economic indicators show otherwise, and have for some time.
Thanks for proving your ignorance. I'm not sure what "all the economic indicators" are in *your* world but in the world of reality, economic indicators show more and more people of working age are *not* in the workforce; more and more people who are employed are doing so in part-time jobs or in jobs lacking in benefits such as healthcare coverage; wages are lagging inflation (has been so for most of this "recovery"). Not that I'm really interested in links from the Bizarro World but go ahead and try and prove your stance.

This recent housing paranoia from the MSM is just another example of desperation. The Fed's have been raising interest rates for some time now. As interest rates climb, housing slows. It's never been any different.
Housing is more than slowing. New home sales dropped something like 14% last month. Houses are now sitting on the market for nearly a year. New mortgage applications dropped about 12% last month. And, from one article I read, 30-year mortgage rates actually dipped a bit a week or so ago.

And did you not see that link re: the Boston housing market right above your post?

Try this one, too:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co...rticle/2005/12/30/AR2005123001481.html
 

nergee

Senior member
Jan 25, 2000
843
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Soft landing in the housing market?

Not in Boston:
http://business.bostonherald.com/realestateNews/view.bg?articleid=119218


The good news is its almost a buyers market and the article also mentioned the median price of a home rose for the first time since July..I don't get that... and also

"Although house prices are down about 10 percent from July?s peak, MAR President David Wluka isn?t alarmed.This is not a harbinger of anything I see other than a return to normalcy."

If I recall correctly, back in the late 80's when that real estate boom busted, people were saying the same things then as they are now...funny how cycles work. In fact I bought my house in 1990 when it became a "buyers market".
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Pabster


This recent housing paranoia from the MSM is just another example of desperation. The Fed's have been raising interest rates for some time now. As interest rates climb, housing slows. It's never been any different.

Short term interest rates have little to no effect on mortgage rates. Those are set by the bond market. Greenspan's raising of the interest rates have had little/no effect on mortgage rates in the last several years.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: dullard

Employment
The unemployment rate has been a real bright spot. However, there seems to be a generational shift going on. In the 90s and early 2000s, there were a ton of dual earner families. This trend is easing. I personally feel that is good for society - we need our kids raised by a parent, not daycare. Masked in the unemployment rate is a ton of people who are just simply out of the job market. Other countries count these people as unemployeed, we ignore them. Again, socially, this is probably a good thing. However, as it occurs, there will be less taxable income and the federal governement will struggle in the next 5 years to cope. That will mean less spending (which hurts GDP) and/or tax adjustments.

The big issue, is, what is the quality of the employment? Remember, a McJob counts as a "job" just as much as a solid middle class job counts as a "job" in the unemployment numbers. Same for a part-time job and a full-time job. Same for a job with benefits and one with out.

In what fields are people finding jobs? Are they finding solid middle class jobs in knowledge-based fields or were those jobs sent to India? Are college graduates profitting from their investments of time and money? Is the percentage of the populace that is working poor increasing?

A "job" is not a "job". Therefore, it's difficult to look at the doctored, political unemployment numbers and reach a conclusion about the state of employment in the country. Also, the numbers fail to account for people who have become so discouraged that they have stopped looking for work (women choosing to stay home with the kids, perhaps and people retiring early). Over the past five years it is debatable whether or not the job market has kept pace with the population growth of working-aged people. (It probably isn't debatable--it's doubtful that it has.)

Are we moving in the direction of having a larger, more sercure middle class with a smaller percentage of poor people, or are we moving in the direction of having a smaller, less secure middle class with a larger percentage of poor people?

Where are the middle class jobs?

 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Originally posted by: Pabster
What exactly is the problem with corporations making profits? This is America, and Capitalism is the cornerstone.

Nothing per se. In fact it would tend to be a positive indicator.

But the issue is, how are they earning those profits? Are the profits coming from a looting of the middle class--with corporations paying less money in wages to employees while charging the same prices for goods and services while impoverished foreigners do the work? Or are the profits the result of a healthy, expanding economy with a strong job market that is strengthening the middle class?

 
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