Contagion spreading among the vaccinated

[soundforbjt]

whatabout

edit: and how do you know? You must watch them alot! But I suspect its an echochamber response.

I watch Faux News about an hour a day to keep up on their latest fear mongering.

Crime rampant in Dem run cities!
Crisis at the border!
Inflation is through the roof!
Pelosi’s a tyrant for imposing masking in the House!
Etc.

Edit: How could I leave out CRT IS EVERYWHERE!!!

 

[blackangst1]

I watch Faux News about an hour a day to keep up on their latest fear mongering.

Crime rampant in Dem run cities!
Crisis at the border!
Inflation is through the roof!
Pelosi’s a tyrant for imposing masking in the House!
Etc.

#bothsides for sure!

 

[Paratus]

Michelle Obama: She lied about children being torn “from their families and thrown into cages.” She knows the truth. Those “cages” were built and used during her husband and Biden’s administration. Even the AP called out this lie.

Or these: Seven times Democrats played the ‘FEAR!’ card they accuse the GOP of using (ajc.com)

Not to mention these popular platforms which are fear based:

• America is stealing poor nation’s resources
• Republicans are stealing from the poor
• Illegal aliens are Americans, too
• Cops are racist murderers
• Islam is peace
• Christianity is bigotry
• Fossil fuels will destroy the planet

These “positions “ are either straw men setup by the right or too nuanced for you to understand.

 

[Jaskalas]

Man, things are ramping up really quickly here in FLA, central area (probably worse in the south).

A close relative works in an ICU and said...

Thank you for the report. I don't think I would have heard anywhere near this detail regarding the current wave - without you.

 

[eikelbijter]

OK. I hope you receive enough advance notice to take the shot, and then socially isolate for however long it takes to build maximum immunity from that shot.

I hope so too!

 

[eikelbijter]

Finally. Here we are at last. It has nothing to do with efficacy of vaccines versus natural immunity or the wisdom of vaccinating children or any of the things you argued about for hundreds of posts . It's the government can't tell ME what to do.

I'm very much for government. I would probably be considered a "socialist" by most American standards, even though I'm much more independent than anything. I certainly believe that governments should and CAN tell citizens what to do, depending on what we're talking about.

You're right is has nothing to do with the "efficacy of vaccines versus natural immunity", but everything to do with the usefulness of vaccinating those with natural immunity. That you can't make that distinction proves you're not getting it. Vaccinated people are getting infected at similar rates with Delta as unvaccinated ones, AND infecting others. The idea that if only we vaccinate everyone all others are protected is simply not correct.

That said, I don't believe it's right for a government to mandate Covid19 vaccination any more than it is for it to tell people they can't go snowboarding or bungee jumping. To implement vaccine passports as suggested by so many is a WASTE OF MONEY, which could have saved A LOT OF LIVES if spent otherwise.

 

[eikelbijter]

I watch Faux News about an hour a day to keep up on their latest fear mongering.

I can't take an hour a day (pffffff), but if I'm on the road in a hotel sometimes I'll turn it on for the exact same reason.

 

[cytg111]

What we know now is that even mild Covid infection will regularly create lifelong immunity to #19.

Just to clarify that, I don't mean 100% protection, nothing is 100%. According to the most informed guy on here, the result that your body will make antibodies for life seems accurate.

How do we know that ???????????

 

[Muse]

Oh it's possible, just unreasonable in our current society. Remember when the China govt was boarding people in their own homes and delivering food to windows? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Something like that was considered in the USA, recommended by some highly regarded epidemiologists IIRC. Basically a 2 week quarantine across the board to shut down transmission. I for one would have had zero difficulty complying, but that's just me.

 

[Muse]

How do we know that ???????????

IMO, we don't. I don't know where he gets that or who the phantom poster he refers to in this thread could be. Cites a poster without identifying them. Says they're an M.D. BFD. There's lots of M.D.s and many of them suck bigtime. Having an M.D. is no proof of knowledge, sorry. Many I have to wonder how they ever got through medical school. Many are complete quacks.

He says go back and read the thread. There are 760 posts in this thread. I'm not going to spend my weekend rereading this entire thread and its links.

 

[Muse]

Hearsay? I's written down, but whatever you want my friend. Here you go:

Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

People who recover from mild COVID-19 have bone-marrow cells that can churn out antibodies for decades, although viral variants could dampen some of the protection they offer.

www.nature.com

I've heard that before, that's nothing new to me, but we have no proof and they said "probably," which doesn't count for much in this arena. Besides, back in May we DID NOT HAVE THE DELTA VARIANT. We also didn't have the next variants. Please stop spreading unvarified, unvarifiable rumors.

Edit: Also the link is to nature.com, not exactly the New England Journal of Medicine.

 

[eikelbijter]

I've heard that before, that's nothing new to me, but we have no proof and they said "probably," which doesn't count for much in this arena. Besides, back in May we DID NOT HAVE THE DELTA VARIANT. We also didn't have the next variants. Please stop spreading unvarified, unvarifiable rumors.

"unvarified"? "unvarifiable"? English better not bet your native language because it's kinda funny to get lectured by someone who seems to have flunked English in high school.

Anyways, the guy I'm talking about goes by the handle
abj13

It's pretty clear that he is a HIGHLY qualified and knowledgeable medical professional. I learned a lot from him and his, admittedly, very unpleasant teaching style. He ROASTED me hard even when I'm not sure I was that far off the mark. Not surprisingly, he has been SILENT, even though there has been a LOT of complete nonsense posted since by others.

He has made it clear, in his bizarre style, that that paper is correct. That the conclusions drawn are on point. You can believe what you want, but that's science.

Now what's weirder, I actually agree with you that "probably" means we can't be sure until it actually happens. I know enough about science that ACTUAL scientists are FAR less likely to be as sure as forum posters readily are. In that light, all the research that shows that vaccination AFTER natural infection COULD give better immunity against SOME variants, because that's what ALL the papers on the subject essentially say, is not the same as saying it IS categorically and improvement.

 

[cytg111]

I've heard that before, that's nothing new to me, but we have no proof and they said "probably," which doesn't count for much in this arena. Besides, back in May we DID NOT HAVE THE DELTA VARIANT. We also didn't have the next variants. Please stop spreading unvarified, unvarifiable rumors.

Even if its right, that you can trace something in a bone marrow sample, to jump to the conclusion that you have immunity for life, any variant at that, is one HELL of a jump.

 

[eikelbijter]

Even if its right, that you can trace something in a bone marrow sample, to jump to the conclusion that you have immunity for life, any variant at that, is one HELL of a jump.

Well, that's how it works though. A germal center is created precisely so that in the future your body can make MORE antibodies when NEEDED. Of course it is not guaranteed to protect against ALL possible variants, but neither is the vaccine.

Do you know that people who survived SARS-COV1 have some immunity against Covid 19, almost TWENTY YEARS LATER??

Dual-action monoclonal antibodies from an original SARS survivor show promise against COVID-19

A recent study, currently available on the bioRxiv preprint server, indicates that a pair of dual-action monoclonal antibodies derived from an original 2003 SARS survivors could play an important role in the fight against coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) due to their broadly neutralizing...

www.news-medical.net

And yes this is preprint, I don't have time to research this right now, but I will.

 

[Jhhnn]

I get your snarkiness, but you obviously dont understand the covid situation there. Just one example...they are under lockdown again. If you want to go from your house to the market or grocery store, you not only have to get a government issued permission slip, but have to provide evidence of a negative test. They test extensively there.

source: family and friends who live there.

I'm sure they'd rather have the vaccines that all too many Americans reject on the basis of irrational fear of vaccination. The latter group is just lying to themselves, trying to rationalize cowardice. They didn't get to that place accidentally. They were led to it by a well organized disinformation campaign.

US vaccines are proven safe & effective. I'm sure the unfortunate events currently unfolding will largely pass over well vaxxed areas of the country while finding many victims in places that are not. The difference between the Northeast & conservative strongholds promises to be heartbreaking. The poor bastards are victim to decades of malicious right wing mindfuck.

A month ago, the delta variant hadn't really begun to show us its power. We went from about 12K new cases/day to 72K/day now, a number that will likely double in another month.

 

[cytg111]

Well, that's how it works though. A germal center is created precisely so that in the future your body can make MORE antibodies when NEEDED. Of course it is not guaranteed to protect against ALL possible variants, but neither is the vaccine.

Do you know that people who survived SARS-COV1 have some immunity against Covid 19, almost TWENTY YEARS LATER??

Dual-action monoclonal antibodies from an original SARS survivor show promise against COVID-19

A recent study, currently available on the bioRxiv preprint server, indicates that a pair of dual-action monoclonal antibodies derived from an original 2003 SARS survivors could play an important role in the fight against coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) due to their broadly neutralizing...

www.news-medical.net

And yes this is preprint, I don't have time to research this right now, but I will.

Yea, Ok, but that is one dude right?

Duration of Antibody Responses after Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome

Among 176 patients who had had severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), SARS-specific antibodies were maintained for an average of 2 years, and significant reduction of immunoglobulin G–positive percentage and titers occurred in the third year. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

176 dudes

Anyway, this is so far out of my field of expertise, beyond the basic data collection / paper analysis skills I acquired yeeeears ago at uni, I have no context in which to put this data and that is why I take my advice from the experts... I mean I could read through these papers and come up with something no problem... it would just be 99% unsubstantiated misunderstood conclusions.

 

[eikelbijter]

Yea, Ok, but that is one dude right?

Duration of Antibody Responses after Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome

Among 176 patients who had had severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), SARS-specific antibodies were maintained for an average of 2 years, and significant reduction of immunoglobulin G–positive percentage and titers occurred in the third year. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

176 dudes

Anyway, this is so far out of my field of expertise, beyond the basic data collection / paper analysis skills I acquired yeeeears ago at uni, I have no context in which to put this data and that is why I take my advice from the experts... I mean I could read through these papers and come up with something no problem... it would just be 99% unsubstantiated misunderstood conclusions.

Susceptible to reinfection doesn't mean you don't have a strong immune response, just like with the Covid19 vaccines. Even with Delta thousands and thousands are getting infected but they are by and large protected from getting really sick again.

 

[allisolm]

And where you got the idea that covid-19 recovered individuals have lasting immunity I don't know, but that's counter to what I have heard.

Hearsay? I's written down, but whatever you want my friend. Here you go:

Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

People who recover from mild COVID-19 have bone-marrow cells that can churn out antibodies for decades, although viral variants could dampen some of the protection they offer.

www.nature.com

From your own source:
" But the persistence of antibody production, whether elicited by vaccination or by infection, does not ensure long-lasting immunity to COVID-19."

 

[Jhhnn]

I think this whole thing about lasting immunity is contrived argumentation. We don't know, and we can't know until some time well into the future. We do know that such immunity does occur with other viral diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, polio & smallpox. Hopefully that will be the case with covid.

 

[eikelbijter]

I think this whole thing about lasting immunity is contrived argumentation. We don't know, and we can't know until some time well into the future. We do know that such immunity does occur with other viral diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, polio & smallpox. Hopefully that will be the case with covid.

We have actual evidence to prove that it IS the case with Covid. Nothing is 100 percent but according to the most informed guy here this is on point.

I swear, you guys don't WANT this to be over. All the good news is summarily dismissed, while repeating the OLD news OVER and OVER.

 

[blackangst1]

I'm sure they'd rather have the vaccines that all too many Americans reject on the basis of irrational fear of vaccination. The latter group is just lying to themselves, trying to rationalize cowardice. They didn't get to that place accidentally. They were led to it by a well organized disinformation campaign.

US vaccines are proven safe & effective. I'm sure the unfortunate events currently unfolding will largely pass over well vaxxed areas of the country while finding many victims in places that are not. The difference between the Northeast & conservative strongholds promises to be heartbreaking. The poor bastards are victim to decades of malicious right wing mindfuck.

A month ago, the delta variant hadn't really begun to show us its power. We went from about 12K new cases/day to 72K/day now, a number that will likely double in another month.

Thanks for the update.

 

[abj13]

From your own source:
" But the persistence of antibody production, whether elicited by vaccination or by infection, does not ensure long-lasting immunity to COVID-19."

That quote is exactly correct. For someone to run around in this thread claiming "even mild Covid infection will regularly create lifelong immunity to #19." doesn't actually understand what those terms mean and is now making up science to justify his false beliefs.

Persistence of antibodies =/= long-lasting or lifelong immunity. Antibodies reflect antigenic memory, but do not ensure immunity. This is the reason why older adults receive vaccinations now for Varicella-zoster and Pneumococci, despite most older adults having a history of infection with both (and in many cases have persistent antibodies).

Even more disturbing is the fact that someone is claiming I said something to support his points. Nowhere are my posts actually quoted. I request the person claiming I said such things delete those posts, because I have never said such a statement (e.g. "even mild Covid infection will regularly create lifelong immunity to #19.").

It is incredibly intellectually dishonest to suggest I said such a thing. Par the course for his/her posting style.

 

[cytg111]

Susceptible to reinfection doesn't mean you don't have a strong immune response, just like with the Covid19 vaccines. Even with Delta thousands and thousands are getting infected but they are by and large protected from getting really sick again.

I think the reason we dont hear anything official along those lines is because its too soon to draw that conclusion. You may be right. May not be right. Thats often the case with these things, sometimes people will make wild predictions and then after the fact come back and “i told you so”, while in reality they just got lucky.
Too soon man, too soon.

 

[Jhhnn]

We have actual evidence to prove that it IS the case with Covid. Nothing is 100 percent but according to the most informed guy here this is on point.

I swear, you guys don't WANT this to be over. All the good news is summarily dismissed, while repeating the OLD news OVER and OVER.

Please. I strongly suspect that infection & recovery or vaccination will provide lasting immunity, actually resistance, but only time will tell. What you've offered is encouraging in that respect but is by no means definitive. The other side of the argument is no stronger, either, so I don't understand why y'all are going on about it the way you are. It's distraction from the more pressing concern of boosting the vax rate to inhibit the delta variant from wreaking havoc.

 

[kitkat22]

Just got done admitting another 2 COVID patients with respiratory failure. ICU remains 90% COVID. We have a relatively small hospital too.

BTW, I may me a doc, but I will be the first to profess I don't know everything. Any doctor who goes claiming they do know everything is lying. This is why we have specialists. To put into perspective, Harrisons Internal Medicine is 2 volumes at about 1500pgs and incredible dense reading. The Heart text is 1500pgs on just the heart. I dare anyone to try and memorize that much info and keep up.