Cost of War Calculator

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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: AcidicFury
Instead of focusing on the Middle East for oil, we should look to Russia. They have huge amounts of oil that can be sold and they need a lot more money than the House of Saud.

How about focusing on alternative fuels?

Think of how much we could have done with $150billion spent on alternative fuel research!

Government funded/administered scientific research is a crock. Scientific research is best done in the private sector in all cases. Think of how much could have been done with that $150 billion back in the pockets of the taxpayers.

Text

What a wonderful blanket statement which is of course completely invalid.

BASIC research is done at academic institutions some of which is done with public money and sometimes with private money, but MORE public money is needed, not less.

Basic research is incredibly valuable. Sometimes you get something interesting, and sometimes not, and sometimes something which seems like nothing turns out to be valuable in another context.

Directed research has it's place, but if you want to increase the total sum of knowlege, you have to spend money on things just for the sake of knowlege. You cannot just pick lottery numbers that are going to win. The universe does not work that way, and you cannot find out what is out there without looking.

Research isnt about a better zipper.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
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To address earlier posts, I do not believe this is a war FOR oil, but a war ABOUT oil.

Our dependency on oil has in large part caused the Middle East to be a focus for world attention. All conflicts, including Israel and Palestine would be of far less significance but for our need. Being dependent on outside sources may be necessary, however every policy since WWII has been made with an eye on the oil supply.

As a result, we have involved ourselves in the politics of the region, manipulating when possible for what seems to the best interest of the US when we would not have to have done so otherwise. The middle east is largely a result of these actions. Just a fact of life, but perhaps it's time to pay the money NOW to get away from this ASAP.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Fencer128
That sums it up.

You say "feels good"

I say "absolutely necessary for technological and scientific advance"

EDIT: i.e. The country will go down the tubes if this doesn't happen.

LMAO!! That is the silliest, most illogical statement I have ever read. The country will go down the tubes if the government ceases to fund research?! I suppose then the country would have gone down the drain hundreds of years ago starting with right after the Declaration of Indpendence was signed.

The very fact that you see no reason to invest in partcle physics is why the government should be funding it. There are potential long term applications. But even if we couldn't see any now - in a few years time it may just hold the key to completely revolutionising our lives. It helps to test the grand unifed theory. It gives insight into the nature of matter. It investigates some of the most fundamental issues in science. It has MASSIVE potential to aid our understanding and therefore development.

A lot of things have "MASSIVE" potential to aid our understanding and development. Starting with many things that are a lot more down to earth. You know what really has MASSIVE potential? The free market *GASP*, OMG. That is probably a dirty phrase to you. But you see the free market is where all wealth is derived from, and it has a heck of a lot more potential than government projects, hence, it pays off a lot more.

Spintronics, that is the basis for how just about every hard drive on the planet works on, came out of "pure" research. No goal or product set - just wanted to understand semiconductors a little more. There are lots more such examples. No pure research - no real advances will be forthcoming.

Like I said, give an idiot billions of dollars and he can come up with the same results. Pure science doesn't have to be funded by the government. On the contrary a lot of pure science is done in private universities.

BTW - I mentioned raffles for tanks because most people would assume the military is important enough that it should be government funded, and not charity. I say the same goes for pure research, albeit to a lesser degree.

Most people like yourself assume society depends on government programs also, but guess what? They are all wrong.

Cheers,

Andy
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Like I said, give an idiot billions of dollars and he can come up with the same results. Pure science doesn't have to be funded by the government. On the contrary a lot of pure science is done in private universities.

Private universities also have research groups that are government funded.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Like I said, give an idiot billions of dollars and he can come up with the same results. Pure science doesn't have to be funded by the government. On the contrary a lot of pure science is done in private universities.

Private universities also have research groups that are government funded.

Then those don't count.
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Dissipate,

You have me painted as a woolly-minded-socialist-liberal-flower-carrying-tree-hugging-Bush-hating-democrat.

The free market *GASP*, OMG. That is probably a dirty phrase to you

Most people like yourself assume society depends on government programs also, but guess what? They are all wrong.

You couldn't be more wrong. It seems you're the one making the assumptions here!

So is military expendature a government program? Or did you mean the let's save the <insert favourite cuddly animal> species program?

Pure research IMHO is a lot nearer the former than you think it nearer the latter.

You consistently ignore the point of the arguement, namely the importance of the work. I could forgive that if through ignorance you didn't comprehend the need - but I have tried to explain it to you - and you still dismiss it all as "optional".

Yes, the country WILL go down the tubes if this kind of research doesn't happen. NO, companies tend not to fund anything like this because it isn't goal based or product specific. The effects would kick in around a decade or so's time from now when we've finished exploiting the short gains available with current science and look for the next ways forward. There won't be many.

Private university research on it's own does not fulfill this need. There is just too much to work on.

Cheers,

Andy
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Andy, he just can't understand. It's all about taxation and money to him. You are trying to describe the difference between red and blue to a blind man. The understanding is not in him. I usually don't give advice on how one should respond to another here, but I hate to see you banging your head against the wall.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
This is our SS money being spent. Down the road, the politicians are gonna come back and say, oops, we don't have money for social security, we've blown it all.
Then they are going to blame you for relying on SS, even though you are paying your hard earned payroll taxes into it.
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
EDIT: Has just been pointed out to me that you were, most likely, replying to the original topic and not the "pure research" spin off. Sorry - ignore the below (I leave it only to show my silly error!)

Hi,

I'm not quite sure how to take your post - but I think you're agreeing with Dissiapte. Can I just add a few comments?

This is our SS money being spent. Down the road, the politicians are gonna come back and say, oops, we don't have money for social security, we've blown it all.

Does that mean everything the government pays out for is SS? Education, Defense, etc? I'm sure more gets spent on defense than pure research - by orders of magnitude. How are you judging what's the "right" amount given the importance of pure research? How does investing in research, knowledge, job creation and contiunual technological dominance rate as "blown it"?

Then they are going to blame you for relying on SS, even though you are paying your hard earned payroll taxes into it.

That's another point entirely IMHO.

Cheers,

Andy
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Fencer, I think he was referring to the original topic. He's saying that the SS money is going to the Iraq War.

Whoops! My mistake.

Cheers,

Andy
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Dissipate,

You have me painted as a woolly-minded-socialist-liberal-flower-carrying-tree-hugging-Bush-hating-democrat.

The free market *GASP*, OMG. That is probably a dirty phrase to you

Most people like yourself assume society depends on government programs also, but guess what? They are all wrong.

You couldn't be more wrong. It seems you're the one making the assumptions here!

At the very least you believe in a mixed economy. However, philosophically there isn't much foundation for your beliefs. You either believe in collectivism or you don't. There isn't anything in between, because one cannot objectively rank the ends of "society". My dad often complains about the nearby city of San Diego spending millions on a ballpark when the local public libraries are stagnant/deteriorating. In this case he has judged that for society the end of education is greater than the end of sports entertainment. I used to agree with him, because this value judgment appeared to be obvious on the surface. However, I now realize that his judgment is no more better than the opposite belief that sports entertainment is a better end for society to attain. The truth is that one can only make judgments about one's own end rankings, once you start trying to rank the ends of society everything falls apart. The reason for this is that an individual cannot receive any feedback relating to the attainment of an end of society, which means that they cannot have any knowledge regarding whether or not the attainment of such an end was desireable for society, for everyone has their own opinions on the matter, such as my father. When you order an ice cream cone at say Baskin Robbin's and that ice cream cone tastes good, you know that consuming the ice cream cone fulfilled one of your desires. The attainment of the end of consuming the ice cream sent positive feedback. When you attempt to have society attain an end, such feedback is either distorted, or difficult/impossible to calculate or quantify. In the abscence of the ability to accurately rank the ends of society, and also in the absence of the ability to attain society's every desired end (if such desired ends truly exist outside the context of individuals) one's only choice is to abstain from attempting to do so.

So is military expendature a government program? Or did you mean the let's save the <insert favourite cuddly animal> species program?

Military expenditures have spiraled out of control just like practically every other government program. As a believer in micro-statism which is government at the municipal/neighborhood level, a military could be raised and readied with non-coercive taxation. Each micro-state would pool their military resources and those who didn't would not receive protection from the other micro-states.

Pure research IMHO is a lot nearer the former than you think it nearer the latter.

You consistently ignore the point of the arguement, namely the importance of the work. I could forgive that if through ignorance you didn't comprehend the need - but I have tried to explain it to you - and you still dismiss it all as "optional".

No, I understand the point of the argument. The argument is basically that the productive citizen must be raped for the "greater good". I don't buy that argument. The government should only exist within the framework of our basic rights. Namely, the right to free and peaceful exchange. What you are advocating is the supression of that right, which has virtually no justification. It is essentially the justification of a crime (theft and unjustified exercise of force) for some ill-defined goals.

Yes, the country WILL go down the tubes if this kind of research doesn't happen. NO, companies tend not to fund anything like this because it isn't goal based or product specific. The effects would kick in around a decade or so's time from now when we've finished exploiting the short gains available with current science and look for the next ways forward. There won't be many.

PAH-lese, you are still spewing this garbage? Current science is taking off like never before, it doesn't need any assistance from bureaucrats and or coercive taxation.

Private university research on it's own does not fulfill this need. There is just too much to work on.

There is always something to work on, that doesn't mean people should be forced to pay for such work unless it is work they wish to render with the wealth they created and saved on their own.

Cheers,

Andy
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Hi,

At the very least you believe in a mixed economy. However, philosophically there isn't much foundation for your beliefs. You either believe in collectivism or you don't. There isn't anything in between, because one cannot objectively rank the ends of "society". My dad often complains about the nearby city of San Diego spending millions on a ballpark when the local public libraries are stagnant/deteriorating. In this case he has judged that for society the end of education is greater than the end of sports entertainment. I used to agree with him, because this value judgment appeared to be obvious on the surface. However, I now realize that his judgment is no more better than the opposite belief that sports entertainment is a better end for society to attain. The truth is that one can only make judgments about one's own end rankings, once you start trying to rank the ends of society everything falls apart. The reason for this is that an individual cannot receive any feedback relating to the attainment of an end of society, which means that they cannot have any knowledge regarding whether or not the attainment of such an end was desireable for society, for everyone has their own opinions on the matter, such as my father. When you order an ice cream cone at say Baskin Robbin's and that ice cream cone tastes good, you know that consuming the ice cream cone fulfilled one of your desires. The attainment of the end of consuming the ice cream sent positive feedback. When you attempt to have society attain an end, such feedback is either distorted, or difficult/impossible to calculate or quantify. In the abscence of the ability to accurately rank the ends of society, and also in the absence of the ability to attain society's every desired end (if such desired ends truly exist outside the context of individuals) one's only choice is to abstain from attempting to do so.

From what you say above, and the other comments you made in the last post that I've edited out to save space, it's clear to me that this isn't about the value of research as about anything that's paid for by force of the goverment's will (i.e. the tax payer) being bad in your world view. Anyway, a couple of last comments on the other points you raise.

Yes, the country WILL go down the tubes if this kind of research doesn't happen. NO, companies tend not to fund anything like this because it isn't goal based or product specific. The effects would kick in around a decade or so's time from now when we've finished exploiting the short gains available with current science and look for the next ways forward. There won't be many.

PAH-lese, you are still spewing this garbage? Current science is taking off like never before, it doesn't need any assistance from bureaucrats and or coercive taxation

It's clear that you do not understand the scientific method. I am right. I'm not exaggerating and you are most definitely wrong. Tomorrow's "current science" is very much the fruits of the last twenty years "pure research". No two ways about it - no pure research --> slow down in technological progress a decade or two from now.

I'm sure you still don't agree - but I think we've gone as far as we can with this. You know my views, I know yours. Feel free to comment but I'm moving on!

Cheers,

Andy
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Fencer128
Hi,

At the very least you believe in a mixed economy. However, philosophically there isn't much foundation for your beliefs. You either believe in collectivism or you don't. There isn't anything in between, because one cannot objectively rank the ends of "society". My dad often complains about the nearby city of San Diego spending millions on a ballpark when the local public libraries are stagnant/deteriorating. In this case he has judged that for society the end of education is greater than the end of sports entertainment. I used to agree with him, because this value judgment appeared to be obvious on the surface. However, I now realize that his judgment is no more better than the opposite belief that sports entertainment is a better end for society to attain. The truth is that one can only make judgments about one's own end rankings, once you start trying to rank the ends of society everything falls apart. The reason for this is that an individual cannot receive any feedback relating to the attainment of an end of society, which means that they cannot have any knowledge regarding whether or not the attainment of such an end was desireable for society, for everyone has their own opinions on the matter, such as my father. When you order an ice cream cone at say Baskin Robbin's and that ice cream cone tastes good, you know that consuming the ice cream cone fulfilled one of your desires. The attainment of the end of consuming the ice cream sent positive feedback. When you attempt to have society attain an end, such feedback is either distorted, or difficult/impossible to calculate or quantify. In the abscence of the ability to accurately rank the ends of society, and also in the absence of the ability to attain society's every desired end (if such desired ends truly exist outside the context of individuals) one's only choice is to abstain from attempting to do so.

From what you say above, and the other comments you made in the last post that I've edited out to save space, it's clear to me that this isn't about the value of research as about anything that's paid for by force of the goverment's will (i.e. the tax payer) being bad in your world view. Anyway, a couple of last comments on the other points you raise.

Yes, the country WILL go down the tubes if this kind of research doesn't happen. NO, companies tend not to fund anything like this because it isn't goal based or product specific. The effects would kick in around a decade or so's time from now when we've finished exploiting the short gains available with current science and look for the next ways forward. There won't be many.

PAH-lese, you are still spewing this garbage? Current science is taking off like never before, it doesn't need any assistance from bureaucrats and or coercive taxation

It's clear that you do not understand the scientific method. I am right. I'm not exaggerating and you are most definitely wrong. Tomorrow's "current science" is very much the fruits of the last twenty years "pure research". No two ways about it - no pure research --> slow down in technological progress a decade or two from now.

I'm sure you still don't agree - but I think we've gone as far as we can with this. You know my views, I know yours. Feel free to comment but I'm moving on!

Cheers,

Andy

On that, I leave you

this.
 

Crimson

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
3,809
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: AcidicFury
Instead of focusing on the Middle East for oil, we should look to Russia. They have huge amounts of oil that can be sold and they need a lot more money than the House of Saud.

How about focusing on alternative fuels?

Think of how much we could have done with $150billion spent on alternative fuel research!

Why? If there is more than enough oil to go around, why not use it? Why must we use alternative fuels? Because it makes you feel better that you think you are saving the planet?
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: AcidicFury
Instead of focusing on the Middle East for oil, we should look to Russia. They have huge amounts of oil that can be sold and they need a lot more money than the House of Saud.

How about focusing on alternative fuels?

Think of how much we could have done with $150billion spent on alternative fuel research!

Why? If there is more than enough oil to go around, why not use it? Why must we use alternative fuels? Because it makes you feel better that you think you are saving the planet?

Conjur believes the government must provide a solution to all of society's "problems". Plain and simple.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Crimson
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: AcidicFury
Instead of focusing on the Middle East for oil, we should look to Russia. They have huge amounts of oil that can be sold and they need a lot more money than the House of Saud.

How about focusing on alternative fuels?

Think of how much we could have done with $150billion spent on alternative fuel research!

Why? If there is more than enough oil to go around, why not use it? Why must we use alternative fuels? Because it makes you feel better that you think you are saving the planet?

No...because it lessens our dependence upon oil, esp. foreign oil.

Also, alternative fuels, such as hydrogen fuel cells, do not pollute as do fossil fuels. That means fewer health problems for people, fewer ozone action days, less pressure on manufacturers to reduce pollution (saving them money)
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Q&amp;A: The Iraq war's price tag

From the Council on Foreign Relations, June 7, 2004

How much has the war in Iraq cost?

Congress has so far appropriated about $123 billion for the war in Iraq in addition to the military's standard operating expenses covered by the Defense Department budget. Lawmakers are in the final stages of approving another $25 billion--most of it for Iraq--to ensure the U.S. military has enough money for operations through the beginning of 2005. The price tag for the rest of 2005 and beyond hinges on the size of the U.S. military presence. Military operations in Iraq currently cost some $4 billion a month. Factoring in replacements for spent munitions, tanks, and other equipment increases the monthly costs to $4.4 billion, says Rose-Ann Lynch, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Department of Defense.

How big is the defense budget?

In 2004, funding for defense programs, outside of additional appropriations for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, was $394 billion, according to the Congressional Budget Office, Congress's nonpartisan economic research arm. Next year, under President Bush's budget proposal, that total would rise to $421 billion, not counting war costs.

How much of the $123 billion was for reconstruction costs?

Approximately $21 billion. The new $25 billion request includes no new money for reconstruction. Instead, it is targeted for military operations.

Have analysts made projections for the total cost of the war?

Yes. Estimates range widely, depending on analysts' forecasts of the size and duration of the U.S. deployment in Iraq. Lawrence J. Korb, an adjunct senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and a Reagan administration Pentagon official, foresees a multiyear cost of $500 billion. Stephen Kosiak, an analyst for the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, writes that costs could run up to $300 billion over the next decade. On the eve of the war in March 2003, an independent task force report from the Council on Foreign Relations estimated that stabilizing Iraq could cost some $20 billion a year for several years and warned that expenses could be higher. Brookings Institution senior fellows Michael O'Hanlon and Lael Brainard estimated in August 2003 that military and reconstruction costs could range from $150 billion to $300 billion. Now, O'Hanlon says he thinks he underestimated. "This has been tougher and more expensive than I ever thought," he says.

How do analysts make cost projections?

One way to roughly estimate future expenses, O'Hanlon says, is to calculate a per-soldier cost based on current operations, and then project forward. With 138,000 soldiers now in Iraq and spending at an average of $4.4 billion a month, the annual per-soldier cost works out to approximately $383,000. Based on that estimate, if the ranks are reduced on a schedule similar to that used for U.S. peacekeepers in Bosnia and Kosovo--about 20 percent to 25 percent a year--costs would total some $310 billion by the end of the decade. That figure assumes that the United States maintains its current troop levels in Iraq until the end of 2005, as top Pentagon officials have told Congress, before starting the troop-reduction process.

How do the war costs relate to the overall U.S. economy?

They are small compared with the total economy, budget experts say. The $123 billion price tag has been spread over two years, with approximately $52.2 billion spent in 2003 and $70.4 billion allocated for 2004. This means the annual cost of the war is less than 1 percent of the nation's $11 trillion economy, says Douglas Holtz-Eakin, the director of the Congressional Budget Office. "There has not been a big direct impact on the economy," he says. On the other hand, because the United States federal budget is running a deficit, the government is borrowing money to finance the war. Interest payments on the debt increase costs; according to CBO calculations, payments on interest and capital for the $87 billion approved by Congress in October 2003 for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars will total $1.1 trillion over 10 years. "In the scheme of things, the war is not super-expensive, but it also sure ain't cheap," O'Hanlon says.

How does the cost of the war compare with other federal government spending?

The $70 billion in 2004 equals less than 4 percent of President Bush's $2.3 trillion federal budget. By comparison, Medicare and Medicaid costs for 2004 were estimated at $449 billion--or nearly 20 percent of the budget--and Social Security costs totaled $492 billion. Regular defense spending in 2004--excluding the extra costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan--was $394 billion, according to the White House Office of Management and Budget. When economists refer to the $123 billion cost of the Iraq war, they are talking about extra spending beyond the regular defense budget.

How do war costs affect the federal budget deficit?

According to CBO estimates, the deficit under the president's budgetary proposals will be $478 billion in fiscal year 2004 and $358 billion in fiscal year 2005. Some 10 percent to 15 percent of the 2004 deficit will be attributable to the cost of the war, Holtz-Eakin estimates. The larger contributors to the deficit, "in roughly equal measure," are the Bush administration's tax cuts, spending increases in other areas, and the economy performing below projections, he says.

Did the Bush administration include the cost of the war in its 2005 budget?

No. Instead, it plans to ask for funding in the form of supplemental appropriations from Congress in early 2005. This has led some critics to charge that the Bush administration is trying to hide the cost of the war from American voters. "We must give the troops what they need to be successful under increasingly risky conditions. And the president must tell the hard truth to the American people about how much longer our troops will remain in Iraq and how much more it will cost," House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi said May 5. The Bush administration says it can't estimate the costs because it does not know how many soldiers it will keep in Iraq and under what conditions they will serve. One solution: the Bush administration could have budgeted $30 billion to $50 billion--assuming the war would cost at least that much. "It was a policy decision" [not to], Holtz-Eakin says.

What is the $25 billion in new funding for?

The $25 billion set to pass Congress in June is being presented as a contingency fund that will pay for military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan between September 30, 2004--the end of the federal government's fiscal year--and February 2005. One reason the money is necessary, Pentagon officials say, is that 20,000 more soldiers than expected are in Iraq and are scheduled to remain there until the end of next year. The war is projected to be $4 billion over budget by September, Lieutenant General Norton Schwartz, director of operations for the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, said May 4. In addition, increased military operations may push the price tag of Iraq operations to some $6 billion a month, said Representative John P. Murtha (Penn.), the ranking Democrat on the House Appropriations defense subcommittee. The president called on Congress to quickly approve the new funding. "We must make sure there is no disruption in funding and resources for our troops," he said.

How much more money will officials ask for in 2005?

It's unclear. Many experts say the cost will be at least $50 billion. Representative David R. Obey of Wisconsin, the ranking Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee, said the 2005 supplemental request could be as high as $75 billion. Testifying before the Senate Armed Services Committee May 13, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said, "There will be a request for a full year supplemental [spending bill] early next year. It will surely be much larger than $25 billion." Using the per-soldier cost projection outlined above, the cost of the war in 2005 would be about $52.8 billion.

Were White House prewar cost estimates accurate?

There were disagreements about the estimated cost. In September 2002, White House economic adviser Lawrence Lindsey told The Wall Street Journal that a U.S. intervention in Iraq could cost between $100 billion and $200 billion--a figure that approximates current spending. White House Budget Director Mitchell E. Daniels Jr. labeled that figure as "very, very high" and estimated total war costs at between $50 billion to $60 billion. Lindsey resigned in January 2003.

Historically, administration forecasts of war spending have often been wrong, according to Yale economist William D. Nordhaus. Abraham Lincoln's secretary of the Treasury estimated that the direct cost of the Civil War to the North would be $240 million; it turned out to be $3.2 billion. Because it wrongly assumed the war in Vietnam would end by June 1967, the Pentagon underestimated its total cost by around 90 percent, Nordhaus says. The total direct cost of that war was $111 billion, or $584 billion in today's dollars.
 
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