Could someone explain this to me, what is a libertarian?

[UltraQuiet]

<< Yet every time something went wrong, we passed another restrictive law. If that pattern continues, we will be left with no freedom at all. >>


Such as?

 

[datalink7]

I agree with the philosophical idea behind the libertarian viewpoint. Freedom is of upmost importance to lead a full and happy life. But the reason I find Libertarians to be a pain is that they take that ideology beyond resonable expectations. You have to have some restrictions because human nature is corruptable. There has to be some stopping block in there to stop the tide of basic human greed.

Now I never said that we should give up our freedoms. To go that way (communism) is just as blind, and even more stupid (though it does hold some nobel aspects). The answer lies, to my thinking, somewhere between libertarians and the current way of being. I just think that the libertarian party takes it too far.

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< The answer lies, to my thinking, somewhere between libertarians and the current way of being. I just think that the libertarian party takes it too far. >>


And that's probably all we can reasonably expect in our current world. I call myself libertarian not because I believe in all the planks of the Libertarian Party, but because I want economic/social policy shifted towards liberty and freedom and away from control and fascism. For instance, the Libertarian Party would sell off the National Parks to the highest bidder, which I would consider a travesty. But they are simply living by the philosophy that private interests will make the most efficient use of land...whoever pays the most obviously thinks they can reap major benefit from it.

But perhaps the biggest problem with true libertarianism, capitalism, etc. is that not all costs are reconciled. For instance, suppose that coal would be the cheapest way to produce energy. But a true free-market economy may not factor in pollution concerns, a very real cost to society. Thus, we can't really have a totally capitalist society. But that's OK, because we aren't near that now and certainly have room for improvement.

 

[Amused]

<<

<< Yet every time something went wrong, we passed another restrictive law. If that pattern continues, we will be left with no freedom at all. >>


Such as? >>



Example:

We see people without healthcare. We pass a law to mandate taxes be used to fund healthcare. But then, tax funded healthcare and free market healthcare present two levels of healthcare, and is seen as unfair to those who cannot/will not afford free market healthcare. We then outlaw free market healthcare and mandate state healthcare for all. In this first part, we've taken freedom away from both doctors, and the rest of the population.

Once this is done, we start noticing that some people cost the healthcare system more than others. Those who eat fatty foods, smoke, partake in dangerous activities, etc., are costing significantly more than those who don't. Solution: Outlaw those activities.

Think this can't happen? Part one is Hillary Clinton's failed healthcare plan (that still has signifigant support). Part two started a long time ago.

These kind of "fix-it"/"there oughta be a law" laws accumulate each year. They wont happen all at once. In fact, each individual law will be billed as "common sense" and "for the common good," and seem harmless, one by one. But add them all up, and you have a fascist/socialist system that restricts your actions in an effort not only to save you from you, but to keep you from costing society money... all because the responsibility for caring for yourself has been removed.

 

[Amused]

Czar,

Have you ever read any of Ayn Rand's books and/or philosophy? That would be a good start.

 

[UltraQuiet]

<< Think this can't happen? Part one is Hillary Clinton's failed healthcare plan (that still has signifigant support). Part two started a long time ago. >>


How about something that has actually happened. As far as I know none of those things that you listed are illegal.

 

[Amused]

<<

<< Think this can't happen? Part one is Hillary Clinton's failed healthcare plan (that still has signifigant support). Part two started a long time ago. >>


How about something that has actually happened. As far as I know none of those things that you listed are illegal. >>



The war on drugs.

Prohibition.

Oppressive taxation of tobacco and the outlawing of smoking in PRIVATELY owned businesses.

Seatbelt laws.

Helmet laws.

Public schools and the restrictions forced on them, (and the students) because they are government funded.

Outlawing prostitution.

Ever increasing firearm restrictions, and countless local and state bans on them.

The list goes on...

The things I spoke of in my previous post may not be illegal today. But there is growing support for bans and restrictions of these things that simply did not exist just 40 years ago. If you think those laws cannot, or will not be passed, you've not been following politics very closely. Additionally, if you think a publically funded healthcare system wont lead to ever increasing restrictions on personal liberty, you.ve not followed history very closely.

 

[UltraQuiet]

<< The war on drugs. >>


As far as I'm concerned we aren't doing enough.


<< Prohibition. >>


It was repealed wasn't it.

Tobacco, Seatbelts and Helmets.
Health issues. Why should I foot the bill because someone smokes or doesn't wear a helmet or a seatbelt. Just causes my insurance rates to go up. Of course if we got rid of the laws and insurance companies didn't have to cover people who did those things then the'd say they were being discriminated against.

Public schools
If your talking about testing and teacher certification or keeping the church out of it, I'm all for it. Anything else you'll have to be more specific.

Outlawing prostitution.
I couldn't care less.

Firearms
Be specific. Do I think you should own a gun to protect yourself/family-Yes. Do I think you should be able to own a fully auto AK-No

As far as health care goes I never said I was for publicly funded healthcare. You don't have to tell me about Hillarycare. We live with it in the military. It's called Tricare and it's a pain in the ass, although it has gotten better over the last 8 years.

 

[datalink7]

<< Czar,

Have you ever read any of Ayn Rand's books and/or philosophy? That would be a good start. >>



My mom said that Atlas Shrugged was one of the best books she ever read in her life. Maybe the best book. Not because she agreed with it, but because she really had to decide why she didn't agree with everything it said. It was so well written that it challenged everything she had been taught over the years. In the end, she had a stronger belief system because of that book.

I have yet to read it, though I intend to.

 

[Amused]

<<

Tobacco, Seatbelts and Helmets.
Health issues. Why should I foot the bill because someone smokes or doesn't wear a helmet or a seatbelt. Just causes my insurance rates to go up. Of course if we got rid of the laws and insurance companies didn't have to cover people who did those things then the'd say they were being discriminated against. >>



You've proven my point right here. When "everyone else" (i.e., government) foots the bill, they get to limit personal freedom.

BTW, Insurance companies are NOT forced to insure people, and high risk drivers pay more already. Smokers pay more for health and life insurance as well. But your mistaken assumption just goes to further prove my point.

 

[AaronP]

they're the people who operate and maintain libraries. DUH. They check out books, put books on the shelves, stuff like that.

 

[BoberFett]

AmusedOne

Execellent posts.


DaveSohmer

You proved his point. You don't want to foot the bill, so you outlaw it. It's only a matter of time before a complete ban on smoking. After that maybe fast food. What are your bad habits? How long until they're illegal?

 

[Amused]

<< Libertarians seem to enjoy popular support among internet nerds, but they have little support in the real world. Ann Coulter once said that Libertarians are all geeks who are obsessed with posting on drug legalization message boards on the internet. >>



Tell me, Shan, do I fit that profile?

 

[glen]

I would like to see pot legalized and tobacco company executives shot.

 

[Amused]

<< I would like to see pot legalized and tobacco company executives shot. >>



But what happenes when Pot becomes big business, is packaged like today's cigarettes, and contains just as many (or nearly as many) carcinogens?

What happens when new tobacco executives rise to power?

Blaming tobacco companies for the bad INFORMED choices of smokers is ridiculous, and is just what I'm talking about here.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

These are some libertarians. Also, Im not sure if he is a card-carrying member, but the leader of the Fed Alan Greenspan has significant Libertarian leanings.

Humans come into this world as individuals. They should be able to make their own decisions and be held responsible for the results. Libertarians feel the only room for government is to keep these individuals from impeding on each others right to live a free life.

 

[glenn1]

Czar, if you decide to join us in the Libertarian movement, i think i'll dance a jig...

Drop us a line here, and i'll see you get made an honorary member... hell, i'll pay your membership fee

Libertarian Party of Delaware
P.O. Box 1472
Dover, DE 19903-1472
U.S.A.

 

[Amused]

OK, Glen and Glenn1 ...

Are you guys related?

 

[Bulk Beef]

<< The freedom that Libertarians talk about isn't viable on a large scale, IMO. It just doesn't work. It puts too much trust in people to do the right thing. Maybe I am a pessimist, but I think at heart people corrupt easily and many will do immoral acts if there isn't something holding them back from doing it. On a small scale, full Libertarianism (sure, not a word but you know what I mean) works because, in a small setting, there is little room for corruption. You can get a group of people together and agree to adopt a ideology. It can work. Take a look at communes (sp?) for instance. Communism works there, and the people are comfortable with it. But when you take it to a bigger scale (Soviet Union), things fall appart. Same thing with the Libertarian Ideology. >>


I think you're confusing libertarianism (it is a word, BTW) with anarchism here.

 

[glen]

<< Are you guys related? >>


no