Country music star has change of heart on 2nd amendment after Las Vegas massacre

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gradoman

Senior member
Mar 19, 2007
883
548
136
Which has what to do with what I was responding to? All I was stating was that we don't always put forth legislation when x catastrophe happens.

But we do investigate the reasons behind whatever catastrophe and try to improve, except when it comes to firearms. Think about jets/airplanes, infrastructure, etc. For example, in the USVI, we updated the building code so that the buildings can take a Cat5 and not turn to a pile of rubble and it helped. Marilyn was a Cat3 and it destroyed the place. Irma was a 5 and we weren't wiped off the map. After major earthquakes, we came up with buildings that could withstand an shake. After 9/11 we did things to prevent people from gaining access to the cockpit, etc, etc.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
Which has what to do with what I was responding to? All I was stating was that we don't always put forth legislation when x catastrophe happens.

True but when x catastrophe happens multiple times, the electorate tends to start wanting something done.

How many deaths from pressure cooker bombs have their been in this country?
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,624
12,757
146
But we do investigate the reasons behind whatever catastrophe and try to improve, except when it comes to firearms. Think about jets/airplanes, infrastructure, etc. For example, in the USVI, we updated the building code so that the buildings can take a Cat5 and not turn to a pile of rubble and it helped. Marilyn was a Cat3 and it destroyed the place. Irma was a 5 and we weren't wiped off the map. After major earthquakes, we came up with buildings that could withstand an shake. After 9/11 we did things to prevent people from gaining access to the cockpit, etc, etc.
The building improvements were great, because we're far more likely to have repeated Cat5's hammer the same areas over and over again. I personally think that anything beyond locked cockpits was a complete waste of resources, and has done nothing but hinder the general populace since 9/11. Banning bump stock modifications who's sole purpose seemingly is to get around the automatic weapons restriction is sensible. Banning the everything because of clearly insane people makes no sense. Might just as well ban high vertical locations since he used that too.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,624
12,757
146
True but when x catastrophe happens multiple times, the electorate tends to start wanting something done.

How many deaths from pressure cooker bombs have their been in this country?
Few, thankfully. We've also had few 'assault weapon' related deaths, people are falling over themselves trying to find a way to make it the bad guy here.

And yet, time and time again, if a mental illness or mental disorder leads to violent behavior, and causes someone to do something horrific, we target the tool instead of the root issue. If you want 'something done', go after that, not the inert hunk of metal he's holding, regardless of it's molecular arrangement.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
The building improvements were great, because we're far more likely to have repeated Cat5's hammer the same areas over and over again. I personally think that anything beyond locked cockpits was a complete waste of resources, and has done nothing but hinder the general populace since 9/11. Banning bump stock modifications who's sole purpose seemingly is to get around the automatic weapons restriction is sensible. Banning the everything because of clearly insane people makes no sense. Might just as well ban high vertical locations since he used that too.

I wish we would ban straw men arguments to.
 
Reactions: Thebobo

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
well I'm about done with your bullshit.

Simple question for you. Do you value your right to own guns more than you value the safety of children? I'm not talking about second hand smoke, or drunk drivers or pedophiles in vans, I'm talking about children being slaughtered by guns, almost daily.
So do you value your 2nd amendment rights more than you value the safety of children, because that's what it boils down to. If you're unwilling to waiver from any modifications to the 2nd, it's pretty clear.

I believe there will always be unfortunate outcomes with many of our freedoms and rights. I do not want to see guns banned, I understand that because we have them sometimes innocent people will die. And that's awful and we should take good common sense steps to reduce that as much as possible, in a perfect world murder would be eliminated. But we should not overly restrict freedoms in an attempt to save lives.

I think this quote by Ben Franklin sums up my feelings on the subject: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."


Now be done with me, I'd like that. You've added nothing but a feet stomping tantrum. Tomorrow I'll again be here to point out how many more INNOCENT people have died from smoking compared to guns and this massacre, and how the left doesn't really care or bring up this much bigger killer nearly as much as they bring up firearms. Your objective is to get rid of guns, you don't care about saving lives.
 
Last edited:

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,215
6,818
136
I believe there will always be unfortunate outcomes with many of our freedoms and rights. I do not want to see guns banned, I understand that because we have them sometimes innocent people will die. And that's awful and we should take good common sense steps to reduce that as much as possible, in a perfect world murder would be eliminated. But we should not overly restrict freedoms in an attempt to save lives.

I think this quote by Ben Franklin sums up my feelings on the subject: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."


Now be done with me, I'd like that. You've added nothing but a feet stomping tantrum. Tomorrow I'll again be here to point out how many more INNOCENT people have died from smoking compared to guns and this massacre, and how the left doesn't really care or bring up this much bigger killer nearly as much as they bring up firearms. Your objective is to get rid of guns, you don't care about saving lives.

First, that Franklin quote has long been ripped out of its original context: it was actually discussing a family's refusal to pay taxes and the risk it was posing to the new country. The "safety" they were trying to purchase was financial safety, and they were hurting the "essential liberty" of the US (that is, its ability to defend itself) by trying to skimp on taxes. There is an inadvertent nugget of wisdom in there, but it's actually arguing in favor of more deference to government and the greater good, not "don't tread on me" individualism.

And sorry, but it is absolutely false that the left "doesn't really care" about other issues like smoking. If you'll recall, the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act was signed by Obama in 2009. The difference is that something like smoking is a voluntary act, there's already plenty of sensible regulation, and smoking is overall on a sharp decline. We're not focused on that situation because it's getting visibly better.

Meanwhile, mass shootings are on the rise (a rate of nearly one per day so far in 2017), there are still too many 'ordinary' shootings, and the lethality of shootings is going up. And importantly, this is death that isn't even remotely voluntary. None of the victims in Las Vegas went to that concert expecting to be shot. It might have been difficult to prevent Paddock from shooting people, but he sure as hell wouldn't have shot so many of them if he'd been barred from both stockpiling that many guns (particularly semi-auto rifles) and equipping them with bump stocks to make them pseudo-automatic.

Contrary to what you assume, many on the left don't want to get rid of all guns (there are some that do, of course). And many of us know that it will be impossible to completely avoid innocent deaths so long as the right to own a gun exists. But that doesn't mean that existing legislation is fine, or that any and all casualties are just the unavoidable price of freedom. That's what's frustrating about your point of view: you're acting as if there's absolutely nothing more that can be done without resorting to a total ban on guns, which is patently false. You're not even allowing the possibility of questioning whether or not those casualties are acceptable.

What's worse is that you don't even seem to realize how your opinion is the result of incomplete, highly filtered information. Why have the NRA and the politicians it pays off been blocking research into gun violence for the past couple of decades, I wonder? Oh, right: because if people were allowed to learn more about the causes of gun violence and how to prevent it, you'd see many more people asking for tighter regulation. If an organization pours so much energy into preventing research that might challenge their ideology, you have to ask whether or not their ideology is the right one.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,613
3,459
136
The building improvements were great, because we're far more likely to have repeated Cat5's hammer the same areas over and over again. I personally think that anything beyond locked cockpits was a complete waste of resources, and has done nothing but hinder the general populace since 9/11. Banning bump stock modifications who's sole purpose seemingly is to get around the automatic weapons restriction is sensible. Banning the everything because of clearly insane people makes no sense. Might just as well ban high vertical locations since he used that too.

What would he do without all those rifles? Throw little hotel shampoo bottles into the crowd to make everyone's eyes burn?
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
Glad to see you're open to having a conversation on this topic, and not just dismissing anyone with an opposing viewpoint.

You don't even know what my viewpoint is, that's how much you don't care about the actual debate.

I await your "both sides" response to further prove my point.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,624
12,757
146
What would he do without all those rifles? Throw little hotel shampoo bottles into the crowd to make everyone's eyes burn?
Who knows, maybe detonate the 50lbs of Tannerite in his trunk? Or utilize a myriad other potential methods to kill a shitload of people that doesn't involve a gun? People are creative. Banning guns will not stop violence.
You don't even know what my viewpoint is, that's how much you don't care about the actual debate.

I await your "both sides" response to further prove my point.
Then have a conversation rather than posting random snarky quips.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,077
136
Just checking in to see if SlowSpyder is still making the exact same unchanged arguments he's been making for nearly a week without any adjustment as well as failing to address alternative points brought to him..?


.. Yep.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
Who knows, maybe detonate the 50lbs of Tannerite in his trunk? Or utilize a myriad other potential methods to kill a shitload of people that doesn't involve a gun? People are creative. Banning guns will not stop violence.

Then have a conversation rather than posting random snarky quips.

Why bother? Its not like you'll debate what's actually being said.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,624
12,757
146
Why bother? Its not like you'll debate what's actually being said.
Really? I'm happy to debate anything being said, if you were keeping up with the other LV thread here, you'd see that I was one of like, what, four people listening to and accepting potential compromises? How much effort have you put into seeing things from 'the other side'?
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,277
8,201
136
The building improvements were great, because we're far more likely to have repeated Cat5's hammer the same areas over and over again. I personally think that anything beyond locked cockpits was a complete waste of resources, and has done nothing but hinder the general populace since 9/11. .

Curious whether you include the invasion of Afghanistan in that 'anything' (and I'm not presuming what the answer is, genuinely curious).

Anyway, you had a massive terror attack by a group of Saudis (some of them financially supported by the Saudi ambassador, and there seem to be other reasons to wonder how far Saudi involvement went) and that didn't lead to any sort of ban on anything Saudi, so, well, you might have a perverse kind of point in that comparison.

Following the logic of 'terror attack by Saudis - invade Afghanistan and then Iraq', the obvious course after a gun massacre is to ban first knives and then baseball bats while doing nothing about guns. That's the American way, right?
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
Really? I'm happy to debate anything being said, if you were keeping up with the other LV thread here, you'd see that I was one of like, what, four people listening to and accepting potential compromises? How much effort have you put into seeing things from 'the other side'?

Seeing things from the other side? Again, you don't even know what my side is so how can you even make that claim? All you and several others have done is to argue against something, not only most people in this thread haven't argued for, but you aren't even arguing against something most Americans are for.

I'll get serious when you stop pretending to be serious.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Just checking in to see if SlowSpyder is still making the exact same unchanged arguments he's been making for nearly a week without any adjustment as well as failing to address alternative points brought to him..?


.. Yep.

What alternative points?

I'll be here tomorrow to do it too, point out how many innocent lives lost you haven't bothered to post about. You know why? Because your side of this argument doesn't really care about saving lives, not all lives anyway. Just the ones that help further your arguments for why your political motives should be achieved. And that's see through as can be, garbage thinking.

You haven't wasted any minutes of your life honestly arguing against the much bigger easier to get killer that it tobacco. But bring up guns? You wear your keyboard out.


*edit - Don't know if you missed it or not, but I joined the NRA yesterday too. Have a good weekend.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,624
12,757
146
Curious whether you include the invasion of Afghanistan in that 'anything' (and I'm not presuming what the answer is, genuinely curious).

Anyway, you had a massive terror attack by a group of Saudis (some of them financially supported by the Saudi ambassador, and there seem to be other reasons to wonder how far Saudi involvement went) and that didn't lead to any sort of ban on anything Saudi, so, well, you might have a perverse kind of point in that comparison.

Following the logic of 'terror attack by Saudis - invade Afghanistan and then Iraq', the obvious course after a gun massacre is to ban first knives and then baseball bats while doing nothing about guns. That's the American way, right?
I like the cut of your jib, wrt American involvement and logic.

I have a dubious mental relationship with the invasion of the ME. It's been in turmoil for centuries, and we seem to be thrilled with the notion of throwing ourselves in the middle of it/keeping ourselves involved in it, decade after decade.

Short term, we made a fantastic mess of things. Middle term, we may have improved some things for some people. Long term, I don't think it'll make a whit of difference beyond giving more people an opinion on the US, and potentially breeding a new generation of terrorists.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,912
2,130
126
Tomorrow I'll again be here to point out how many more INNOCENT people have died from smoking compared to guns and this massacre, and how the left doesn't really care or bring up this much bigger killer nearly as much as they bring up firearms. Your objective is to get rid of guns, you don't care about saving lives.
You keep bringing up smoking,driving, etc and somehow equating them to gun violence. You are looking at it from a purely number of deaths perspective.

I'm still struggling to see how you can even equate second hand smoke death to a gun death. With one you at least have a choice of removing yourself from the area and if not, at the very least it will take a LONG time to actually cause death. Unfortunately none of those dead people had the choice to remove themselves from the area before shooting started. And as mentioned before, most of the topics you keep bringing up, even smoking has been heavily regulated, so why shouldn't guns have strict regulations as well?

Talk about your rights all you want, but those people's basic human rights were trampled on as well.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,624
12,757
146
Seeing things from the other side? Again, you don't even know what my side is so how can you even make that claim? All you and several others have done is to argue against something, not only most people in this thread haven't argued for, but you aren't even arguing against something most Americans are for.

I'll get serious when you stop pretending to be serious.
And i'll get serious when you're ready to have a conversation rather than just leave droppings over my comments like a gerbil.

Why bother? Its not like you'll debate what's actually being said.
I await your "both sides" response to further prove my point.
I wish we would ban straw men arguments to.

What is your side then? What is your opinion on the relationship between the liberal relationship with firearms, and the conservative relationship with firearms, and how do you think that has affected the population's perception and understanding of firearms.
 
Feb 16, 2005
14,035
5,338
136
What alternative points?

I'll be here tomorrow to do it too, point out how many innocent lives lost you haven't bothered to post about. You know why? Because your side of this argument doesn't really care about saving lives, not all lives anyway. Just the ones that help further your arguments for why your political motives should be achieved. And that's see through as can be, garbage thinking.

You haven't wasted any minutes of your life honestly arguing against the much bigger easier to get killer that it tobacco. But bring up guns? You wear your keyboard out.


*edit - Don't know if you missed it or not, but I joined the NRA yesterday too. Have a good weekend.
Here's hoping you get stuck in a service elevator with a group of smokers. It'll give you a chance to really debate that topic.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
You keep bringing up smoking,driving, etc and somehow equating them to gun violence. You are looking at it from a purely number of deaths perspective.

I'm still struggling to see how you can even equate second hand smoke death to a gun death. With one you at least have a choice of removing yourself from the area and if not, at the very least it will take a LONG time to actually cause death. Unfortunately none of those dead people had the choice to remove themselves from the area before shooting started. And as mentioned before, most of the topics you keep bringing up, even smoking has been heavily regulated, so why shouldn't guns have strict regulations as well?

Talk about your rights all you want, but those people's basic human rights were trampled on as well.


Their rights were trampled, totally agree. That's awful, I don't like seeing people killed by guns or anything else any more than you do. My perspective that in America, limiting the freedom should be the last answer to try and solve these types of things.

Look up third hand smoke, you're breathing in smoker's carcinogens even if you don't know it. Yea, a gun is more instant, it still kills less innocent and far less in absolute numbers (innocent victims and self harm combined). I guess I don't see how that somehow makes tobacco better.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,077
136
Could you guys just stop bitting on the tobacco bit? He literally doesn't understand and won't change his mind.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Could you guys just stop bitting on the tobacco bit? He literally doesn't understand and won't change his mind.


You just bit on the tobacco bit a few posts up, got schooled and can't respond, and now are asking people to stop replying to the tobacco bit. Fantastic.
 
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