County Officials Attempt to Stop Home Bible Study

[OCGuy]

I am an agnostic leaning towards athiest, so lets get that out of the way. I despise religion being any part of public policy.

Besides the blatant violation of the constitution here, I worry about the other implications the article brings up.

What if I have 10-15 people over on Fridays for poker? Monday night football?

Why is the county counting visitors to your home?

"SAN DIEGO -- A local pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a San Diego County official, who then threatened them with escalating fines if they continued to hold bible studies in their home, 10News reported."




http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html

 

[Alienwho]

I think I remember watching a movie when I was younger about how people in Eastern Germany couldn't gather more than a handful of people for fear of planning an uprising or escape plan. Damn commies.

 

[DaveSimmons]

The county employee notified the couple that the small bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of county regulations, according to Broyles.

Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit"

Is 15 people a normal size for a friendly poker game?

If I lived next door to a house that had 15 people hootin' and hollerin' about the Lord for a couple of hours every week I might get annoyed, the same if it was a weekly house party or football watching crowd of that size.

A few friends over is different from 15 people every week.

Edit: Why not have the bible study at their church like normal churchfolk do?

 

[shiner]

And he would have gotten away with it to if it weren't for those kids and that pesky First Amendment.

 

[OutHouse]

at first i was going to flame the county. but having 15 people over for church in a neighborhood is a bit much. if one of my neighbors did that i would be pissed as well. i don't care if it is bible study, poker night. the pastor is being a nussiance to his neighbors and i don't blame them for siccing the law on him.

15 people isnt bible study, its church.

 

[MotF Bane]

stop religious assembly

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws./q]

County is in the wrong, unless there's a violation of a noise ordinance, which can be viewed as a violation of "peacefully assemble".

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Is 15 people a normal size for a friendly poker game?

No, but it's one person shy of a four table bridge party, and fewer people than I've seen at a family barbeque.

I'm no fan of religion, but I'm no fan of harrassing a group of people gathering peacefully for bible studies, either.

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: Citrix
at first i was going to flame the county. but having 15 people over for church in a neighborhood is a bit much. if one of my neighbors did that i would be pissed as well. i don't care if it is bible study, poker night. the pastor is being a nussiance to his neighbors and i don't blame them for siccing the law on him.

15 people isnt bible study, its church.

So what about a kid's birthday party? Say little Timmy had 10 friends over for his 6th birthday party. Each kid has a parent with them. Uh oh...20+ people are at Timmy's house. Better call the Po Po!!!

Seriously it's ridiculous that the freaking sheriff would get involved in something like that. I would think that maybe, just maybe the law enforcement officials in and around San Diego would have something better to do. Like...oh...I dunno....hunt down illegals, stop car theft, shut down meth labs, find Ryan Seacrest and kill him, etc, etc, etc....you know...real police work.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: shiner
So what about a kid's birthday party?

Does your kid have a birthday party every week?

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: shiner

Originally posted by: Citrix
at first i was going to flame the county. but having 15 people over for church in a neighborhood is a bit much. if one of my neighbors did that i would be pissed as well. i don't care if it is bible study, poker night. the pastor is being a nussiance to his neighbors and i don't blame them for siccing the law on him.

15 people isnt bible study, its church.

So what about a kid's birthday party? Say little Timmy had 10 friends over for his 6th birthday party. Each kid has a parent with them. Uh oh...20+ people are at Timmy's house. Better call the Po Po!!!

Seriously it's ridiculous that the freaking sheriff would get involved in something like that. I would think that maybe, just maybe the law enforcement officials in and around San Diego would have something better to do. Like...oh...I dunno....hunt down illegals, stop car theft, shut down meth labs, find Ryan Seacrest and kill him, etc, etc, etc....you know...real police work.

bday parties happen once a year not once a week. read my post again. its a nuisance to have that activity every week, if that many people attend they should go to their church.

the sheriffs dept job is to enforce all the laws not just the ones you seem to think arent that important.

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: shiner
So what about a kid's birthday party?

Does your kid have a birthday party every week?

The frequency is irrelevant Kenneth.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: shiner

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: shiner
So what about a kid's birthday party?

Does your kid have a birthday party every week?

The frequency is irrelevant Kenneth.

its very relevant

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: shiner

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: shiner
So what about a kid's birthday party?

Does your kid have a birthday party every week?

The frequency is irrelevant Kenneth.

its very relevant

Only if you feel like limiting people's rights based on the frequency they do something.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

The county employee notified the couple that the small bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of county regulations, according to Broyles.

Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit"

Is 15 people a normal size for a friendly poker game?

If I lived next door to a house that had 15 people hootin' and hollerin' about the Lord for a couple of hours every week I might get annoyed, the same if it was a weekly house party or football watching crowd of that size.

A few friends over is different from 15 people every week.

Edit: Why not have the bible study at their church like normal churchfolk do?

Why is it your business to tell someone they cant have it in their own home?


If they are violating noise laws by "hootin and hollerin", then site them for that.

If they violate parking laws, site them for that.


If it is 15 people peacefully assembling in a home, it really isnt yours or the governments business what they are doing, as long as they are not violating any laws. Saying they are violating the law just by having 15 people together, no matter the frequency, is ludicrous at best.

 

[heyheybooboo]

This is lame as .. well, Hell.

"" This is not really a religious assembly ? this is just a bible study with (on average) 15 friends. "" - Pastor David Jones

Why don't they rotate the Bible study between homes?

The guy is running a mini-church and clearly the neighbors complained about it or the code enforcement officer would not have been out there in the first place.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: shiner

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: shiner

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: shiner
So what about a kid's birthday party?

Does your kid have a birthday party every week?

The frequency is irrelevant Kenneth.

its very relevant

Only if you feel like limiting people's rights based on the frequency they do something.

yea.. and what's the magic number here anyway? 15? 10? What if 7 people come in a van, 4 in a full size sedan, 3 people walked from down the street, and 6 live at the house. Thats only two cars out front, probably in the drive way. I doubt bible studies are half as loud as a drunken poker game with half as many people.

I'd be damned if I couldn't have a bbq with my friends every sunday.

 

[Fern]

The 1st:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

Strikes me as 3 (potential) violations of the 1st in one fell swoop.

I see no reason for anybody to mention noise as a problem. Mowing the lawn (or edging, or those damn weed eaters) probably makes more noise and last longer, even if they are the ' holly roller hollering types'.

As for parking, it could be a legitimate concern but there are other ways to handle that. You can get 15 people in 3 cars, surely 3 cars can't be a problem.

The below, if true, is troubling:

Broyles said, "The county asked, 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'

Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit" -- a process that could cost tens of thousands of dollars

Looks like they are targeting religion.

Constitutional rights can have reasonable limitations, but tens of thousands of dollars for a meeting in your private home strikes me as decidely unreasonable.

To those who wonder why they don't just use their own church building for this meeting - not all churches own a building, particularly new churches. Many smaller and/or new churches simply rent a space for their Sunday/Wednesday services until they can afford to buy a building. Buying their own building might not be an option in this economy, they may have even lost the one they had.

Strikes me as over-zealous enforcement by a county employee, one who may have biased motives too. If it's a parking problem just handle it without the overkill 'bazooka approach'.

Fern

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Is 15 people a normal size for a friendly poker game?

No, but it's one person shy of a four table bridge party, and fewer people than I've seen at a family barbeque.

I'm no fan of religion, but I'm no fan of harrassing a group of people gathering peacefully for bible studies, either.

+1

Well said.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
This is lame as .. well, Hell.

"" This is not really a religious assembly ? this is just a bible study with (on average) 15 friends. "" - Pastor David Jones

Why don't they rotate the Bible study between homes?

The guy is running a mini-church and clearly the neighbors complained about it or the code enforcement officer would not have been out there in the first place.

What does it have to do with what the guy is "running"

that's like calling a family bbq a "mini restaraunt" or "mini bar and grill" because he has his grill fired up and some beer in teh fridge.

There's no way they can be stopped for what they are doing.

 

[SAWYER]

I assume the ACLU is dispatching a team of lawyers as we speak.....

 

[Lemon law]

Its the Sheriff's responsibility to enforce the law, but when that law is clearly unconstitutional, the Sheriff is a dumb ass and needs a dope slap.

I might be dubious about an excessively religious home schooling, but if that is what is lacking, take the high ground and beat them on academic standards or SHTFU.

 

[DrPizza]

wtf? 15 people is not that many people at all. And, I've been to houses where there were 20 or more people for poker games. They'd set up multiple tables for a tournament. Once each table was down to 3 players, they'd merge those tables.

A 15 person limit is absolutely retarded. And, if your neighbors have 15 people over, and they're not loud, not causing a disturbance, then mind your own fucking business. If they ARE loud, causing a disturbance, or other problems, then deal with those problems using the appropriate laws.


Citrix, I'd love for you to explain how it's a nuisance.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Citrix
at first i was going to flame the county. but having 15 people over for church in a neighborhood is a bit much. if one of my neighbors did that i would be pissed as well. i don't care if it is bible study, poker night. the pastor is being a nussiance to his neighbors and i don't blame them for siccing the law on him.

15 people isnt bible study, its church.

are you shitting me?

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: Fern
The 1st:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances

Strikes me as 3 (potential) violations of the 1st in one fell swoop.

I see no reason for anybody to mention noise as a problem. Mowing the lawn (or edging, or those damn weed eaters) probably makes more noise and last longer, even if they are the ' holly roller hollering types'.

As for parking, it could be a legitimate concern but there are other ways to handle that. You can get 15 people in 3 cars, surely 3 cars can't be a problem.

The below, if true, is troubling:

Broyles said, "The county asked, 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'

Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit" -- a process that could cost tens of thousands of dollars

Looks like they are targeting religion.

Constitutional rights can have reasonable limitations, but tens of thousands of dollars for a meeting in your private home strikes me as decidely unreasonable.

To those who wonder why they don't just use their own church building for this meeting - not all churches own a building, particularly new churches. Many smaller and/or new churches simply rent a space for their Sunday/Wednesday services until they can afford to buy a building. Buying their own building might not be an option in this economy, they may have even lost the one they had.

Strikes me as over-zealous enforcement by a county employee, one who may have biased motives too. If it's a parking problem just handle it without the overkill 'bazooka approach'.

Fern

Great points Fern.

There's no way they can be stopped, based on what I read. No noise complaints, no parking complaints, just the fact that they are having regular get togethers about the bible.

What they do, once in the Pastor's home, is soley up to them as long as they are not violating the law. Like I stated earlier, perhaps all 15 people piled into two vans that are parked in the driveway of the pastor's house. Perhaps all they do is just sit there and talk, then go home.

Seriously, wtf. I need more info because from what I read the county official needs to get kicked in the shins and dismissed for wasting taxpayer dollars trying to blackmail these people into paying for some kind of expensive license.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Citrix
at first i was going to flame the county. but having 15 people over for church in a neighborhood is a bit much. if one of my neighbors did that i would be pissed as well. i don't care if it is bible study, poker night. the pastor is being a nussiance to his neighbors and i don't blame them for siccing the law on him.

15 people isnt bible study, its church.

are you shitting me?

He's wrong. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/church

6.a body of Christians worshipping in a particular building or constituting one congregation: She is a member of this church.

So.. it doesn't need to be 15 people.. just more than 1. So the pastor and his wife in bed at night, talking about the bible, is church?