"Coup d'etat" in Honduras

[Double Trouble]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
obama is in the wrong here if he is suggesting this dude shouldn't have been removed

By Military force and exiled? How would you have felt if Bush would have been arrested in the middle of the night and flown to Mexico?

Actually, that might not have been such a bad idea, if it wasn't for the fact that Cheney would have then been president. :Q

I'm sure we'll find out a lot more about what actually happened, but based on first impressions and initial reports I'd say it looks like the Honduran military and congress saw a fearsome prospect of a Chavez-like dictatorship developing, and they decided they were not going to sit back and wait to let it happen. They got rid of the cancer quickly. Sounds smart to me, but again, we don't know the details yet.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Double Trouble

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
obama is in the wrong here if he is suggesting this dude shouldn't have been removed

By Military force and exiled? How would you have felt if Bush would have been arrested in the middle of the night and flown to Mexico?

Actually, that might not have been such a bad idea, if it wasn't for the fact that Cheney would have then been president. :Q

I'm sure we'll find out a lot more about what actually happened, but based on first impressions and initial reports I'd say it looks like the Honduran military and congress saw a fearsome prospect of a Chavez-like dictatorship developing, and they decided they were not going to sit back and wait to let it happen. They got rid of the cancer quickly. Sounds smart to me, but again, we don't know the details yet.

I'd think that a hearing by their congress with charges filed against him would have been in order instead of just ousting him.

 

[KMFJD]

Originally posted by: BarrySotero

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: BarrySotero
Obama yawned over Iran (called uproar a "vigorous debate" or something stupid like that) and the now those kids in Iran get their head bashed in easier because Obama flicked it off his radar. Now Obama sure got involved quick with his Marxist dictator buddies. What a disgrace.

You're the disgrace, attacking Obaa for consistently standing up for democracy in each case. In both, he's expressed support for democracy and declined to get directly involved.

In both, he's done what helps in terms of not causing problems with the US throwing its weight around, giving the Iranian leaders an excuse to blame the US, and in not offending nations to our south by trying to use force to get what it wants, which causes problems with relations there.

LOL "Obama standing up for democracy"

The Hondura military had an obligation to protect democracy in Honduras when President Mel Zelaya tried to monkey with Honduran Constitution like Chavez did. Obama is standing up for a wannbe dictator - birds of a feather lock together and Obama is just like these creeps.

Honduras Defends Its Democracy
Fidel Castro and Hillary Clinton object.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html

As much as i hate the warbagarble obama!!! idiots , he's right on this one.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
obama is in the wrong here if he is suggesting this dude shouldn't have been removed

By Military force and exiled? How would you have felt if Bush would have been arrested in the middle of the night and flown to Mexico?

If Bush had been trying to get "elected" for an (illegal) third term, by sending out evangelical goon squads to have a "referendum" after the supreme court had ruled against him?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
obama is in the wrong here if he is suggesting this dude shouldn't have been removed

By Military force and exiled? How would you have felt if Bush would have been arrested in the middle of the night and flown to Mexico?

If Bush had been trying to get "elected" for an (illegal) third term, by sending out evangelical goon squads to have a "referendum" after the supreme court had ruled against him?

I'm not defending what the guy did I'm just wondering if arresting him and exiling him from the country prudent. He should have been brought up on charges and any referendum against the constitution should have been ignored. In our country there would have been an impeachment and if found guilty then the President would have been removed from office. We just wouldn't arrest him at gunpoint and force him out of the country.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
obama is in the wrong here if he is suggesting this dude shouldn't have been removed

By Military force and exiled? How would you have felt if Bush would have been arrested in the middle of the night and flown to Mexico?

If Bush had been trying to get "elected" for an (illegal) third term, by sending out evangelical goon squads to have a "referendum" after the supreme court had ruled against him?

I'm not defending what the guy did I'm just wondering if arresting him and exiling him from the country prudent. He should have been brought up on charges and any referendum against the constitution should have been ignored. In our country there would have been an impeachment and if found guilty then the President would have been removed from office. We just wouldn't arrest him at gunpoint and force him out of the country.

The last (successful) coup in this country was 233 years ago, can't say the same about Latin America. They didn't take him out back and shoot him, they threw him out, and will have new elections in the fall. That's progress for that area. Besides, you put him in jail, now his supporters come try to break him out and it gets closer to civil war.

After learning the facts on this (and contrasting it to the response to the Iran situation), the Obama admin's position is shameful. To hem and haw and issue tepid statements about a fraudulent election, then come out forcefully and immediately against a country that is acting within it's own rule of law shows that the Obama team is clearly flailing in it's first significant foreign policy challenges.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
obama is in the wrong here if he is suggesting this dude shouldn't have been removed

By Military force and exiled? How would you have felt if Bush would have been arrested in the middle of the night and flown to Mexico?

If Bush had been trying to get "elected" for an (illegal) third term, by sending out evangelical goon squads to have a "referendum" after the supreme court had ruled against him?

I'm not defending what the guy did I'm just wondering if arresting him and exiling him from the country prudent. He should have been brought up on charges and any referendum against the constitution should have been ignored. In our country there would have been an impeachment and if found guilty then the President would have been removed from office. We just wouldn't arrest him at gunpoint and force him out of the country.

The last (successful) coup in this country was 233 years ago, can't say the same about Latin America. They didn't take him out back and shoot him, they threw him out, and will have new elections in the fall. That's progress for that area. Besides, you put him in jail, now his supporters come try to break him out and it gets closer to civil war.

After learning the facts on this (and contrasting it to the response to the Iran situation), the Obama admin's position is shameful. To hem and haw and issue tepid statements about a fraudulent election, then come out forcefully and immediately against a country that is acting within it's own rule of law shows that the Obama team is clearly flailing in it's first significant foreign policy challenges.

Not to mention the fact that it wasn't just a bunch of militia rising up and throwing this guy out. The Congress and judicial branch in Honduras both agreed that this president was violating the country's constitution. That's why a democracy has multiple branches of government: checks and balances against one branch gone wild.

This is horrible and despicable foreign policy on the part of the Obama administration, to say the least. They are siding with a despot who flagrantly violated Honduras' constitution, and both of the other arms of government agreed that he needed to be removed from power.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

This is horrible and despicable foreign policy on the part of the Obama administration, to say the least. They are siding with a despot who flagrantly violated Honduras' constitution, and both of the other arms of government agreed that he needed to be removed from power.

No it isn't, we are siding with a democratically elected President, even if we don't particularly care for him. Ousting him with a military coup goes against democracy. The way to oust him is through impeachment proceedings or something similar as put forth by their Constitution

 

[piasabird]

From what I saw the Supreme court of Hunduras ordered the military to take over because what the president was doing was illegal. I think Chavez was trying to influence him, so he could have more socialism in South America. I think calling it a military coup is a mis-characterization of what is going on.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

This is horrible and despicable foreign policy on the part of the Obama administration, to say the least. They are siding with a despot who flagrantly violated Honduras' constitution, and both of the other arms of government agreed that he needed to be removed from power.

No it isn't, we are siding with a democratically elected President, even if we don't particularly care for him. Ousting him with a military coup goes against democracy. The way to oust him is through impeachment proceedings or something similar as put forth by their Constitution

Have you read THEIR constitution? Do you know what THEIR president removal process is? This wasn't just a bunch of guys with guns removing the president. The legislature and judicial branches both approved of this.

If their constitution has an impeachment process similar to ours, then fine, I will concede that point to you. But it sounds awfully like you and the Obama administration are impressing YOUR beliefs upon them. For all we know, they may not have the same president removing process as us. I do not know their constitution, but I do not claim to. But if their Congress and high courts both approved of this, it sounds like they were following their rules.

Sounds like you approve of meddling in other countries affairs. Okay when siding with socialists like Chavez, not okay when granting freedom to people in the Middle East?

Double-standards...hmm...

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

they are doing a reasonable job in brazil

I don't know much about Brazilian politics. I should ask my office mates (who are from Brazil). I never associated them with the likes of Chavez though. Maybe their president made some comments about white people causing this financial crisis (to Gordon Brown) but at least they're not trying to become a dictator.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

This is horrible and despicable foreign policy on the part of the Obama administration, to say the least. They are siding with a despot who flagrantly violated Honduras' constitution, and both of the other arms of government agreed that he needed to be removed from power.

No it isn't, we are siding with a democratically elected President, even if we don't particularly care for him. Ousting him with a military coup goes against democracy. The way to oust him is through impeachment proceedings or something similar as put forth by their Constitution

It isnt a military coup, that is hyperbole. It would be like if Bush was going crazy and the military removed him and installed Cheney, or Pelosi, or wait......

No but seriously it isnt like a general is at the helm of the country. The 2nd in command via a democratically elected govt is running the show until elections.

I dont know what our mechanism is in this country. But the military swears an oath to the constitution. If our sitting president starts running crazy trying to take over the govt and trampling the other two branches I'd assume if we are unable to make him leave via impeachment the military will. Is that a coup or protecting our democratic process?

I dont know what their mechanism is for removing a president. It may very well be if a president is breaking the law in the way he was by inciting violence it is within the right of the govt to remove him from power using what means necessary. Moving him to Costa Rica was probably done to keep him from inciting violence among his supporters.

I also give Obama a fat F on this situation. He sat by while people protested a rigged democratic process in a totalitarian theocracy and then whines when a wannabe dictator is tossed from power by a democratically elected govt.

Hard to imagine why our image is so horseshit in that part of the world. His administration is threatening to cut funds if they dont comply with his wishes to reinstall chavez jr. The people dont want a dictator, but Obama apparently does.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

This is horrible and despicable foreign policy on the part of the Obama administration, to say the least. They are siding with a despot who flagrantly violated Honduras' constitution, and both of the other arms of government agreed that he needed to be removed from power.

No it isn't, we are siding with a democratically elected President, even if we don't particularly care for him. Ousting him with a military coup goes against democracy. The way to oust him is through impeachment proceedings or something similar as put forth by their Constitution

They followed THEIR laws according to THEIR Constitution

Just because the result does not match up with our olitical leaders preferred outcome - tough!

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

This is horrible and despicable foreign policy on the part of the Obama administration, to say the least. They are siding with a despot who flagrantly violated Honduras' constitution, and both of the other arms of government agreed that he needed to be removed from power.

No it isn't, we are siding with a democratically elected President, even if we don't particularly care for him. Ousting him with a military coup goes against democracy. The way to oust him is through impeachment proceedings or something similar as put forth by their Constitution

Have you read THEIR constitution? Do you know what THEIR president removal process is? This wasn't just a bunch of guys with guns removing the president. The legislature and judicial branches both approved of this.

If their constitution has an impeachment process similar to ours, then fine, I will concede that point to you. But it sounds awfully like you and the Obama administration are impressing YOUR beliefs upon them. For all we know, they may not have the same president removing process as us. I do not know their constitution, but I do not claim to. But if their Congress and high courts both approved of this, it sounds like they were following their rules.

Sounds like you approve of meddling in other countries affairs. Okay when siding with socialists like Chavez, not okay when granting freedom to people?

Double-standards...hmm...

I'm not siding with Chavez and I definitely don't approve of meddling in other countries affairs which we aren't. The last thing I want is to go back to the Bush or even the Reagan Administrations policies of removing governments we don't agree with.

BTW I'll also concede that I'm not familiar with the Constitution of Honduras. If it states that a sitting President can be removed and exiled by order of their Congress and Supreme Court without any trial or hearings then fine, that's the way it is even though that'd be a pretty fucked up way of doing things.

 

[alphatarget1]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

This is horrible and despicable foreign policy on the part of the Obama administration, to say the least. They are siding with a despot who flagrantly violated Honduras' constitution, and both of the other arms of government agreed that he needed to be removed from power.

QFT.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

This is horrible and despicable foreign policy on the part of the Obama administration, to say the least. They are siding with a despot who flagrantly violated Honduras' constitution, and both of the other arms of government agreed that he needed to be removed from power.

QFT.

Yeah were are the Nun slaughtering Contras when you need them:roll:

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
obama is in the wrong here if he is suggesting this dude shouldn't have been removed

By Military force and exiled? How would you have felt if Bush would have been arrested in the middle of the night and flown to Mexico?

if bush had done what this dude was doing, i feel that would have been 100% appropriate

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
obama is in the wrong here if he is suggesting this dude shouldn't have been removed

By Military force and exiled? How would you have felt if Bush would have been arrested in the middle of the night and flown to Mexico?

if bush had done what this dude was doing, i feel that would have been 100% appropriate

As much as I thought Bush was terrible for this country I wouldn't have supported it and I would have vehemently protested it. Of course I would have supported him being impeached and removed from office if found guilty.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

This is horrible and despicable foreign policy on the part of the Obama administration, to say the least. They are siding with a despot who flagrantly violated Honduras' constitution, and both of the other arms of government agreed that he needed to be removed from power.

No it isn't, we are siding with a democratically elected President, even if we don't particularly care for him. Ousting him with a military coup goes against democracy. The way to oust him is through impeachment proceedings or something similar as put forth by their Constitution

how does it go against 'democracy' when the military followed the law?

 

[Red Dawn]

BTW this new freedom loving Honduran Government has shut down all Media sources. They don't sound any better than that asshole Chavez.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
BTW this new freedom loving Honduran Government has shut down all Media sources. They don't sound any better than that asshole Chavez.

Red herring. That has nothing to do with whether or not the legislature and judiciary followed their law.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
obama is in the wrong here if he is suggesting this dude shouldn't have been removed

By Military force and exiled? How would you have felt if Bush would have been arrested in the middle of the night and flown to Mexico?

if bush had done what this dude was doing, i feel that would have been 100% appropriate

As much as I thought Bush was terrible for this country I wouldn't have supported it and I would have vehemently protested it. Of course I would have supported him being impeached and removed from office if found guilty.

reread what i said, particularly the bolded

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

This is horrible and despicable foreign policy on the part of the Obama administration, to say the least. They are siding with a despot who flagrantly violated Honduras' constitution, and both of the other arms of government agreed that he needed to be removed from power.

No it isn't, we are siding with a democratically elected President, even if we don't particularly care for him. Ousting him with a military coup goes against democracy. The way to oust him is through impeachment proceedings or something similar as put forth by their Constitution

how does it go against 'democracy' when the military followed the law?

Did they or were they just doing what they were told.

My argument could be wrong if their Constitution states that a sitting President can be removed without any hearing or trial, you know, a proceeding where charges are made against him and he has a chance to defend himself and his actions.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
obama is in the wrong here if he is suggesting this dude shouldn't have been removed

By Military force and exiled? How would you have felt if Bush would have been arrested in the middle of the night and flown to Mexico?

if bush had done what this dude was doing, i feel that would have been 100% appropriate

As much as I thought Bush was terrible for this country I wouldn't have supported it and I would have vehemently protested it. Of course I would have supported him being impeached and removed from office if found guilty.

reread what i said, particularly the bolded

Well you can support un-Constitutional actions all you want, does make it right

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

This is horrible and despicable foreign policy on the part of the Obama administration, to say the least. They are siding with a despot who flagrantly violated Honduras' constitution, and both of the other arms of government agreed that he needed to be removed from power.

No it isn't, we are siding with a democratically elected President, even if we don't particularly care for him. Ousting him with a military coup goes against democracy. The way to oust him is through impeachment proceedings or something similar as put forth by their Constitution

Have you ever lived in a country like Honduras? Not trying to insult or anything... but things do not operate like they do here in the U.S. Here we are fortunate to have somewhat of a system of checks and balances. Impeachment proceedings would have likely never finished.