"Coup d'etat" in Honduras

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
*snip*

How do you feel about the warmongering Chavez rattling sabers threatening invasion over something that is really none of his country's business, just because he is trying to advance the cause of leftist dictators in SA?

To be fair, Red Dawn addressed that in an edit to one of his recent posts.

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
And with regards to Chavez, I think he's a despot and a destabilizing force in Latin America and wish him no good. If he was to follow through with his threat to invade Honduras I would totally support military action against him and his nation just like I supported military action against Hussien and Iraq when they invaded Kuwait.

 

[Vic]

I can't support a military coup, regardless of its supposed legality.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Vic
I can't support a military coup, regardless of its supposed legality.

Why would a different country need your support in order to follow its own laws?

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: Vic
I can't support a military coup, regardless of its supposed legality.

Good grief, it wasn't a military coup. I already addressed this in a previous post. Do you understand the meaning of the words you are using?

Coup D'etat

"a sudden and decisive action in politics, esp. one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force."

There was not a change of government illegally. There was no force involved. The Congress and Supreme Court both agreed that this president was in violation of their constitution and needed to be removed in accordance with their laws. The military escorted the deposed president away because...who else would do it? Soccer players?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
*snip*

How do you feel about the warmongering Chavez rattling sabers threatening invasion over something that is really none of his country's business, just because he is trying to advance the cause of leftist dictators in SA?

He's a paper tiger. If he were to folow through with it the US would render his countries infrastructure and Army to rubble in a matter of weeks if not days and he'd find himself in a prison if not dead by the hands of his own countrymen.

I bet there are some here who'd wish he'd do it so this would come to pass.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Vic
I can't support a military coup, regardless of its supposed legality.

Why would a different country need your support in order to follow its own laws?

They don't need your support either, so what's your point besides being an ass?

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

And with regards to Chavez, I think he's a despot and a destabilizing force in Latin America and wish him no good. If he was to follow through with his threat to invade Honduras I would totally support military action against him and his nation just like I supported military action against Hussien and Iraq when they invaded Kuwait.

[/quote]


Ah, glad to hear that Red. However, Obama seems to line up with the SA left more than Honduras, so dont expect any military action on our end. However, if he did invade, and a random cruise missile landed on his (Chavez) compound, the world would be a better place.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: Vic
I can't support a military coup, regardless of its supposed legality.

Why is this a coup when supposedly the military was carrying out its legal responsibilities to defend its Constitution?

Don't forget, our military has the same task to protect our Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Vic
I can't support a military coup, regardless of its supposed legality.

Why would a different country need your support in order to follow its own laws?

They don't need your support either, so what's your point besides being an ass?

You're the one being the donkey's rear, because OCGuy is spot-on. You're the one whining about Honduras following their laws and upholding their constitution. They don't need your approval in order to properly govern their nation.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Vic
I can't support a military coup, regardless of its supposed legality.

Good grief, it wasn't a military coup. I already addressed this in a previous post. Do you understand the meaning of the words you are using?

Coup D'etat

"a sudden and decisive action in politics, esp. one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force."

There was not a change of government illegally. There was no force involved. The Congress and Supreme Court both agreed that this president was in violation of their constitution and needed to be removed in accordance with their laws. The military escorted the deposed president away because...who else would do it? Soccer players?

Call me provincial, but I prefer our laws, which in these circumstances involves drawn-out legal rituals like public impeachment proceedings etc etc.

Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's ass for Honduras and its internal problems, I am merely offering my opinion of the situation. If this is law in Honduras (as you say), then IMO their laws are uncivilized. That is all.

 

[Red Dawn]

I'm wondering if this guy is so popular that the ruling elite are afraid of him getting elected for a third term if they are going to hold free elections in the near future and if they are, are they going to allow someone from his Party to run and if elected serve. Is he by himself with his political ideals and alliances with Chavez or is it his party? He's just part of the political machinery there and if the people liked him enough to vote him in for a third term why wouldn't they vote for another guy just like him?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Vic
I can't support a military coup, regardless of its supposed legality.

Why would a different country need your support in order to follow its own laws?

They don't need your support either, so what's your point besides being an ass?

You're the one being the donkey's rear, because OCGuy is spot-on. You're the one whining about Honduras following their laws and upholding their constitution. They don't need your approval in order to properly govern their nation.

And your approval means... what? Nothing. OCguy isn't 'spot-on', he's just resorting to red herring and personal attack. We're discussing our personal opinions here, people, not changing the world. Don't fool yourself.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Vic
I can't support a military coup, regardless of its supposed legality.

Why would a different country need your support in order to follow its own laws?

They don't need your support either, so what's your point besides being an ass?

You're the one being the donkey's rear, because OCGuy is spot-on. You're the one whining about Honduras following their laws and upholding their constitution. They don't need your approval in order to properly govern their nation.

And your approval means... what? Nothing. OCguy isn't 'spot-on', he's just resorting to red herring and personal attack. We're discussing our personal opinions here, people, not changing the world. Don't fool yourself.

You're the one calling people names over opinions here.

Just saying I'm not the one "fooling myself" here, is all.

Originally posted by: Vic
Call me provincial, but I prefer our laws, which in these circumstances involves drawn-out legal rituals like public impeachment proceedings etc etc.

Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's ass for Honduras and its internal problems, I am merely offering my opinion of the situation. If this is law in Honduras (as you say), then IMO their laws are uncivilized. That is all.

Stop being so imperialistic and forcing your beliefs on other countries!

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Stop being so imperialistic and forcing your beliefs on other countries!

Yeah stop being so Republican!!

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Vic
I can't support a military coup, regardless of its supposed legality.

Why would a different country need your support in order to follow its own laws?

They don't need your support either, so what's your point besides being an ass?

You're the one being the donkey's rear, because OCGuy is spot-on. You're the one whining about Honduras following their laws and upholding their constitution. They don't need your approval in order to properly govern their nation.

And your approval means... what? Nothing. OCguy isn't 'spot-on', he's just resorting to red herring and personal attack. We're discussing our personal opinions here, people, not changing the world. Don't fool yourself.

You're the one calling people names over opinions here.

Just saying I'm not the one "fooling myself" here, is all.

Originally posted by: Vic
Call me provincial, but I prefer our laws, which in these circumstances involves drawn-out legal rituals like public impeachment proceedings etc etc.

Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's ass for Honduras and its internal problems, I am merely offering my opinion of the situation. If this is law in Honduras (as you say), then IMO their laws are uncivilized. That is all.

Stop being so imperialistic and forcing your beliefs on other countries!

Yeah, because offering my opinion and calling it that is being imperialistic and forcing my beliefs... :roll:

Is this really the best you got?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I'm wondering if this guy is so popular that the ruling elite are afraid of him getting elected for a third term if they are going to hold free elections in the near future and if they are, are they going to allow someone from his Party to run and if elected serve. Is he by himself with his political ideals and alliances with Chavez or is it his party? He's just part of the political machinery there and if the people liked him enough to vote him in for a third term why wouldn't they vote for another guy just like him?

Democracy is not a perfect system (no system is) and as such requires checks on its potential abuses (in the US, we call these checks 'the rule of law'), terms limits for a head of state being a perfectly reasonable one of those. You are correct though, term limits apply to the individual and not the ideology.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Vic

Yeah, because offering my opinion and calling it that is being imperialistic and forcing my beliefs... :roll:

Is this really the best you got?

I'm wondering if they'd try and defend the Coup leaders if they executed the President because it was allegedly legal according to their interpretation of their Constitution. I bet they would.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I'm wondering if this guy is so popular that the ruling elite are afraid of him getting elected for a third term if they are going to hold free elections in the near future and if they are, are they going to allow someone from his Party to run and if elected serve. Is he by himself with his political ideals and alliances with Chavez or is it his party? He's just part of the political machinery there and if the people liked him enough to vote him in for a third term why wouldn't they vote for another guy just like him?

Democracy is not a perfect system (no system is) and as such requires checks on its potential abuses (in the US, we call these checks 'the rule of law'), terms limits for a head of state being a perfectly reasonable one of those. You are correct though, term limits apply to the individual and not the ideology.

Well what I read is that Zelaya's own party was against this referendum. Maybe they realized this would result in a Coup and that their own political party would be in jeopardy.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Vic

Yeah, because offering my opinion and calling it that is being imperialistic and forcing my beliefs... :roll:

Is this really the best you got?

I'm wondering if they'd try and defend the Coup leaders if they executed the President because it was allegedly legal according to their interpretation of their Constitution. I bet they would.

If it was legal according to Honduran law, then why not? We have a death penalty right or wrong. So why not Honduras as well if that happened to be the case and death is the penalty if convicted for this type of offense.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Vic
I can't support a military coup, regardless of its supposed legality.

Why would a different country need your support in order to follow its own laws?

They don't need your support either, so what's your point besides being an ass?

You're the one being the donkey's rear, because OCGuy is spot-on. You're the one whining about Honduras following their laws and upholding their constitution. They don't need your approval in order to properly govern their nation.

And your approval means... what? Nothing. OCguy isn't 'spot-on', he's just resorting to red herring and personal attack. We're discussing our personal opinions here, people, not changing the world. Don't fool yourself.

You're the one calling people names over opinions here.

Just saying I'm not the one "fooling myself" here, is all.

Originally posted by: Vic
Call me provincial, but I prefer our laws, which in these circumstances involves drawn-out legal rituals like public impeachment proceedings etc etc.

Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's ass for Honduras and its internal problems, I am merely offering my opinion of the situation. If this is law in Honduras (as you say), then IMO their laws are uncivilized. That is all.

Stop being so imperialistic and forcing your beliefs on other countries!

Yeah, because offering my opinion and calling it that is being imperialistic and forcing my beliefs... :roll:

Is this really the best you got?

Uh, if it wasn't blatantly obvious, I was being sarcastic.

Even Red Dawn got the jab and posted a counter-jab in response.

I was debating whether or not to add a smiley to the end of that post...hmm...perhaps I should have!

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Regardless of whether or not the President of Honduras was engaging in an attempt to subtly overthrow the true concept of democracy in Honduras, and replace it with the barely disguised dictatorship of Venezuela, the method of stopping this transition should not be to engage in a military coup. All that does is sabotage democracy even more substantially, for if the military cannot be trusted to stay out of political squabbles, and will jump in on the side of whomever they support, what trust can the people of the country have that their democratically decided results will be maintained?

Finally, we should be wary of the claims of the elite in government in Honduras. Like many Latin American countries, its government is often controlled by the upper-middle-class, the businesspeople of the nation, and the elite wealthy. They see someone like a Chávez as a real threat, because he finds his power from the poor in society, a group of people who are rarely provided with any true advantages by the governing business owners. Understandably, they fear the reorganization of power that can occur if the underclasses get their hands on the machinery of government. This does not justify their attempts to halt such a reorganization through illegal means.

It has put the United States in a very bad position. If we do not call for the return to power of the elected president, we will appear to be falling back into our meddleing ways that have made us almost uniformly despised in Latin America. On the other hand, if we help reinstate the President, we validate him and his efforts to effectively emasculate democracy in the country, and we will be providing a substantial feather for the cap of Chávez, Morales, the Castros, and their ilk. Nothing like being between a rock and a very, very hard place

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: dphantom

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Vic

Yeah, because offering my opinion and calling it that is being imperialistic and forcing my beliefs... :roll:

Is this really the best you got?

I'm wondering if they'd try and defend the Coup leaders if they executed the President because it was allegedly legal according to their interpretation of their Constitution. I bet they would.

If it was legal according to Honduran law, then why not? We have a death penalty right or wrong. So why not Honduras as well if that happened to be the case and death is the penalty if convicted for this type of offense.

Exactly. I mean, what Zelaya was doing is tantamount to treason.

But this is all waxing theoretical though, since he was not killed; he was merely removed from the country by the military, at the behest of the Congress and Supreme Court.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Uh, if it wasn't blatantly obvious, I was being sarcastic.

Even Red Dawn got the jab and posted a counter-jab in response.

I was debating whether or not to add a smiley to the end of that post...hmm...perhaps I should have!

/furiously shakes sarcasm meter

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
Regardless of whether or not the President of Honduras was engaging in an attempt to subtly overthrow the true concept of democracy in Honduras, and replace it with the barely disguised dictatorship of Venezuela, the method of stopping this transition should not be to engage in a military coup. All that does is sabotage democracy even more substantially, for if the military cannot be trusted to stay out of political squabbles, and will jump in on the side of whomever they support, what trust can the people of the country have that their democratically decided results will be maintained?

Finally, we should be wary of the claims of the elite in government in Honduras. Like many Latin American countries, its government is often controlled by the upper-middle-class, the businesspeople of the nation, and the elite wealthy. They see someone like a Chávez as a real threat, because he finds his power from the poor in society, a group of people who are rarely provided with any true advantages by the governing business owners. Understandably, they fear the reorganization of power that can occur if the underclasses get their hands on the machinery of government. This does not justify their attempts to halt such a reorganization through illegal means.

It has put the United States in a very bad position. If we do not call for the return to power of the elected president, we will appear to be falling back into our meddleing ways that have made us almost uniformly despised in Latin America. On the other hand, if we help reinstate the President, we validate him and his efforts to effectively emasculate democracy in the country, and we will be providing a substantial feather for the cap of Chávez, Morales, the Castros, and their ilk. Nothing like being between a rock and a very, very hard place

Could it be we are saying one thing and hoping for another?

On another note not only has the US and the OAS condemned this Militarily led transition of power in Honduras but also the E.U. Damn when was the last time we were all on the same page? I'm thinking when Iraq rolled into Kuwait and right after 9/11. Now this is change you can believe in

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Vic
I can't support a military coup, regardless of its supposed legality.

the military may be the only national police there. the military apparently runs the actual elections. i'm going to guess that out in the boonies the military may be the only part of the government in the area.

would it be any different if it were national police that did the arrest here?